Are you for real? You'll play against any deck that hasn't proved itself to be an established "competitive" deck?
What does THAT prove? Isn't the point to show that YOUR deck is competitive? If not, what's the point? Anybody can make a crappy to okay deck.
I am now convinced beyond any doubt that this is a troll because I don't believe what I just read.
Am I the only one?
The reason why you don't play test against for and only as an example: Brian Kibblers deck that won the last 2 Pro tour Events(again only an example, not saying he did):
Yes your trying to show deck is competitive. Putting a deck up against Brian Kibblers deck isnt the way to do it. Yes any deck might actually consistently beat Brian Kibblers deck, and show that the deck is competitive.
But what is more likely, is that most competitive decks that go up against Brian Kibblers deck, will get it's ass kicked over and over and over, over the long term, most likely.
A good comparision for this is again poker.
You take a very, extremely good poker player, that plays extremely good poker in a very good game.
Now you put that same player up against the worlds best poker players, and that good poker player gets crushed.
Does that mean that poker player is not good, not competitive? NO. That poker player is,was consistently winning, outplaying, crushing everything, up until he had to play the worlds best poker players a lot.
That same kind of thing is true for magic.
My deck could very well do good at hard core competitive FNM's, City convention tourneys, and STATES tourneys, and semi major event tourneys.
And if that happened, that would mean that my deck was good to great, competitive.
But if my deck did that, and then got crushed by Brian Kibblers PRO DECK, over and over and over consistently, would that mean that the deck wasn't good, not competitive, just because it got consistently crushed by Brian Kibblers PRO DECK? NO.
That's why testing my deck against BRIAN KIBBLERS PRO DECK, wouldn't be a fair test. Just like testing a good poker player, against the world best would also not be a fair test to see if the player was a good poker player or not.
A better, more fair test for the deck, would be against what the deck would see at FNM's, at competitive magic tourneys, States,etc.
At these tourney's if you do see a exact copy of BRIAN KIBBLERS PRO DECK, it's usually played by someone who is somewhere below average, average, or just barely slightly above average, and most certainly not a pro, or a very good player, most of the time(there are exceptions).
At one of those tourneys you should expect to see a mix of:
And usually those decks won't be exact copies of the PRO BUILDS of those decks. And if they are, they are played by no good, non pro players, who won't play the PRO BUILDS of those decks as well as they could be.
Most of the time players will play similar to very similar copies of those decks. And altho competitive, most of the players are not pros.
Thats why a fair test of a U/R miracle card deck, would be against NON EXACTLY COPIED PRO BUILDS, and against the types of decks you would expect to see at extremely competitive FNM's, CITY, CONVENTIONAL, REGIONAL, STATES tourneys.
Then if the deck does well against that, THEN, and ONLY THEN test the deck against BRIAN KIBBLERS PRO DECK. and then if the deck tested well against all that, then take the deck to GP's, PTQ's, etc.
I have seen many times where somebody said that a deck tested crappy vs a PRO DECK, only to hear of it doing well at STATES tournies etc.
And thats exactly why testing against a PRO Deck is not a fair test to see whether a deck is good, effective, competitive,etc.
Many tier 1.35 to tier 1.85 decks get crushed by by PRO decks, while doing well everywhere else.
I see 4 counters, 3 super-unreliable removal and 15 bull**** that you can't call 'answers'.
Counting good cards, you have exactly 4.
You already mentioned the 4 Mana leaks
3 disperse, 3 metamorphs, and 3 thunderous Wraths are very reliable, to go with the 4 mana leak counterspells.
3 Disperse is better then 3 Vapor Snag.
3 Metamorph copies, deals with everything but HORDES.
3 thunderous Wrath deals 5 damage to creature or player.
The deck is RIGGED to make thunderous wrath consistent
3 Mastery gives extra turns that gives extra draw, extra land, extra attack phases to either get cards to deal with creatures, or to win. And your opponent can't attack you during the extra turns, that can win you the game, play creatures, find ways to deal with creatures,etc. Deck is RIGGED to make Mastery consistent
3 Devastation Tides(sideboard)
Is a board wiper. Deck is RIGGED to make devastation tide consistent
3 Crippling Chills: Taps creatures for 2 turns
The problem you have, is that you only see each card in a vacuum, and don't see how the cards work together.
There are 19 to 22 cards, that deal with creatures.
Yes sure if you only look at the 3 disperses,or 3 Vapor Snags, or 3 Crippling Chills, in a vacuum, or any of the other cards, in a vacuum, its not going to look very good.
But when you look at how the cards work,interacts, interchange, synergize, work together, then thats when you should be able to see how the cards deal with creatures.
Delver(not this delverish deck), is,was the best deck. It only had counterpsells, and Vapor Snags, to deal with creatures. But yet Delver dealt with creatures just fine.
my deck, this deck, has the same counterpsells, and a Disperse version of Vapor Snag, that Delver has,had, and also has thunderous Wrath, and Mastery, and Metamorph, which is more stuff to deal with creatures, then Delver(which dealt with creatures just fine), had.
So since Delver dealt with creatures just fine, and since this deck has more stuff to deal with creatures then Delver did, then this deck should also deal with creatures just fine.
anybody who doesn't think so either doesn't know magic, or they are illogical, or must say that the Delver deck, which is, was the best deck, does not deal with creatures just fine.
And saying that would be illogical, because If Delver hadn't dealt with creatures just fine, it wouldn't have become the best deck, that it became.
I thought he finally gave up, but looks like he's still going. Hey mike, do you play on MWS? I will playtest as many games as you want with any of my decks and post them here to give you some real test results.
1. what is MWS?
2. the deck is still in early stages of being fine tuned, tweaked, etc. 1 more or 1 less of a card, or 1 slightly different card, here or there can make a big difference.
3. As long as your decks are not pro build deck list of deck that have won, or top 4 to top 8 pro eve4nts,etc
4. As long as your decks are a mix, and not all of the same type(like if your decks were all tempered steel, or kuldotha rebirth goblin decks, that could produce skewed results)
5. As long as the sample size was at least 75 to 500 games.
6. As long as you had someone else that doesn't know how to play your decks as well as you do, play your deck, since you probably don't know how to play my deck as well it could, or should be played.
7. As long as you either did redo's of play mistakes, and or played my deck well.
So you have 4 answers to a deck full of creatures? I'm sure I played against a deck like this earlier, it's just so inconsistent and has no really power to it. Maybe if you had Bolt and Brainstorm in the format, but relying on Noxious Revival is just awful. You're relying on a random guy and Delver to be the aggro deck?
More then 4 answers. The Way you say it makes it sound like literally 4 cards, that ere either a 1 card at a 4 of, or 2 cards at a 2 of.
There are 4 Mana leaks, 3 Disperse, 3 Crippling Chills, 3 Metamorphs, 3 Masterys, 3 Thunderous Wraths, 3 Devastation Tides(sideboard)
That's 7 cards, that all added up together is 22, 22, TWENTY TWO cards, not just, only 4.
And then you have 3 noxious revival's, and 4 Snapcaster Mage's, That's 7, SEVEN more cards, that RE USE the 22 other cards that deal with creatures just fine.
And if that weren't enough there are 16 card draw cards, that help the other 22 cards come out.
I have a HELL of a LOT of fuel to mana leak counterpsell, bounce, copy, board wipe, creatures.
And previous Delver Decks, before miracle delverish, had less then that, and they dealt with creatures just fine
It must be nice to live in Magical Christmas land.
Some of the scenarios you've pointed out are so unlikely to happen that counting on them is just...I have no words.
But hey...we can all dream can't we.
4 mana leaks, 3 Ghost quarters, 3 Disperse, 3 Crippling Chill's, 3 sideboarded devastation Tides, 3 sideboarded Naturalizes to deal with creatures, cavern of souls, planewalkers, artifacts, enchantments,aggro,etc, and then 4 Snapcaster Mages, and 3 Noxious Revivals, to re use all of the above, IS NOT MIAGICAL CHRISTMAS LAND.
ANY and all of those cards deal with problems threats, etc. And all of those cards, are either 4 of's and 3 of's.
which means they will usually come out enough. Magical Christmas land is where you either don't get things out often enough, and or having to combine way to many things, and is where you then have to get insanely lucky to get those cards out.
Getting 1 or 2 out of 4 mana leaks out in a draw happy deck, is not lucky. Getting 1 of 3 Disperse out is not lucky. Getting 1 of 3 Ghost Quarters is not lucky. Getting 1 of 3 Crippling Chills is not lucky. Getting 1 or 2 out of 4 Snapcaster Mages to re use those cards is not lucky. Getting 1 of a 3,4 of card, and a 1 of another 3,4 of card in a combo is not lucky
The deck will consistently mana leak creatures, bounce creatures, tap creatures, copy creatures, board wipe creatures, because of the 4 mana leaks, 4 Snapcaster Mages, 3 disperse, 3 noxious Revivals, 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs, 3 Temporal Masterys, 3 Thunderous Wraths, 3 naturalizes (sideboard), 3 Devastation Tides(sideboard),etc
That's a hell of a lot of CONSISTENT ways to deal with creatures, aggro, artifacts, enchantments, planewalkers. And all that is consistent
So the deck is not magical Christmas land, and is consistent in dealing with creatures, aggro, artifacts, enchantments, planewalkers
if you think that is magic Christmas land, then you need to learn about statistics, because when you have a lot of things at a 4 of, and 3 of, to deal with creatures, aggro, artifacts, planeswalkers, that is statistically consistent.
Now if I had a bunch of 1 of's that dealt with those problems, that would be magic Christmas land
And also if opponent tries to stop me from using any of, and all of those cards thru either counterspelling,or spot removal,etc, then I mana leak them.
And the deck can with the ultimate Christmas land draw, mana leak a maximum of 14 times. That mean's I should be able to mana leak about 3.33 times per game on average.
What if your opponent just attacks a lot? Or resolves any type of PWs. You can't actually deal with any deck presenting any type of board presence, and in this environment that's like conceding.
Counterspells, disperse, crippling chills, is plenty enough to deal with an opponent that attacks a lot, and builds a big board presence.
1. first they have to get a creature out. MANA LEAK. Yes there is Cavern of souls. But Cavern of souls, is likely only played in tribal, aggro decks. And if they do stick out a Cavern of Souls, then I ghost quarter it. And go on my merry way mana leaking
2. if they are playing a semi super fast Aggro deck, or if I can't counter their creatures. Then I can Bounce their creatures, or can I can tap their creatures for 2 turns while drawing a card, and I can Temporal Mastery extra turn.
3. I can race them. The fastest this deck can win is turn 3 with either about 18 damage from multiple Delver's. or a combo of Delver and 15 from 1 wrath, and 1 copied wrath
4. if nothing works game 1: I lose game 1 about 59% to 73% of the time vs semi super fast aggro decks, like Kuldotha Rebirth Goblin,etc.
But then I side in 3 Devastation Tides(a miracle board wipe card), games 2,3, and board wipe them over and over and over and over, the next 2 games, to win.
Also I think semi superfast Aggro decks won't be played as much. yes sure they will get a bump in play for a while, because of Cavern of the Souls, until they get board wiped over and over, by non counterspell decks.
Also before U/R miracle Delver, Delver decks did just fine vs Aggro decks, often times with 10 to 13 creatures.( My U/R miracle delverish deck has 1 more creature then that at 14 creatures)
And finally if the meta goes superfast win by turns 3,4,5 Aggro, and thus hoses the deck. Then so be it.
I have said that the only way the deck will not work, be effective, win,etc, is IF IT GETS HOSED BY THE META.
but other then that the deck effectively does what it is designed to do effectively, and works effectively. It will Thunderous Wrath over and over and over. It will produce about 1.75 to 3.5 extra turns per game. It will have Delver and Metamorph copies of others 8/8's,etc deal lots of damage.
5. Planewalkers are not a problem. I can counter them, or I can Disperse bounces Planeswalkers quite nicely, so that I can then counter them, or if not they at least reset, and take 2,3,4,5 more turns before they get close to going off.
Also Delver, can fly in and kill planewalkers.
And I can counter artifacts, enchantments, like swords, etc. Or I can Disperse them, or the creatures they are attached to.
4 Mana Leaks
3, or 4 Noxious Revivals
3 Thunderous Wrath
3 Disperse
3 Crippling Chill or Thought Scour(depending on the meta. If lots of bigger threat creatures, then Criplling Chill to tap them and draw. If more aggro base, then Thought Scour)
i think the deck needs the revivals, but like people before have said, they are bad early when you have nothing in the yard to put on top. 4 of revival does not seem like the right number becuase like the miracles themselves you really dont wanna see it in the opener.
i like the lighthouse over looter but it can mess with the mana base. but looter dies to every removal spell in standard so thats not very reliable.
also i dont see haw vexing devil fits in this deck as it is creature light so they will save the removal for him and not eat the damage. sure its efficient either way but in most cases it wont help you get there.
4 Noxious Revival's can be the right number of them in the deck, IF, IF you maximize the benefit of running 4 of them.
If you can CONSISTENTLY Thunderous Wrath over and over and over. Also 3 copies of ANY card that you run as a 4 of, that end up in opening hand is bad.
Also 1 noxious revival in opening hand can be good, if you drop a red mana land, turn 1, and then Thunderous Wrath turn 2. And then Noxious Revive it to top of library during opponent's turn 3, and then draw and cast it during your opponents turn 3.
But all that may be a moot point about Noxious Revival, because 2 metamorph, and 3 Snapcaster Mages, and 3 mana leaks, are not enough.
And the only way I can fit in 1 more Metamorph, 1 more Snapcaster Mage, and 1 more mana leak, is to go with 3 Noxious Revival, instead of 4. Now if there was room to run 4 noxious revival, I would. I just don't see the room for 4 noxious revival, and only see room for 3 noxious revival.
If players waste their removal on looter, instead of on a flipped Delver, or on a metamorph copy of a 8/8 that's going to kill them, then that's a good thing.
Now sure those other threats probably won't be out earlier on when looter is out. But a good magic player anticipates threats.
I wouldn't waste removal on a looter, because I would anticipate wasting a removal spell on looter, and then getting STOMPED by something better later, that I might not have a removal spell for later, because I wasted it on looter.
Also if had to I could use Noxious Revival to get looter back. And I could also COUNTERSPELL a removal attempt to get rid of looter. Also I could just draw another looter.
And also that's why I have 2,3 Desolate lighthouse as back up for looter. Between the looters, and the Desolate lighthouse, that should probably be just fine.
I have come to the same conclusion on Vexing devil. ON PAPER and in sample hands, sample games, casual games, etc, it seems like it should work. But since people will figure out that taking the 4 damage from Vexing Devil, just helps this deck win faster, they will deal with Vexing Devil by just allowing it, and then chump blocking it until they either remove it or put something bigger out.
And if they take the 4 damage. Then I won't have a creature base to attack, block with. And there just isn't room for both Delver and Vexing Devil. I can use those slots for running 4 delver's and other things. And 4 Delvers is better then 3 Vexing Devils, and 3 Delvers
Merfolk Looter? There's gotta be something better in Gut shot standard. Faithless Looting will (I'm estimating, here) on average, get you two more loots out of your card.
I'd be more inclined to cut the Dual castings and the aggro plan (which clash badly) and make a ramp deck with Entreat the Angels and Bonfire of the Damned. You know, go real deep.
The problem with Faithless looting, is that it isn't instant speed to do during your opponents turn. If you do a faithless looting during your turn, then there is chance you could draw a miracle as the 2nd card drawn, and thus not be able to play it for it's miracle cost, and thus either discard, or draw it into your hand.
Merfolk looter is better because you can use it during your opponents turn to draw and play miracles, and can discard miracles from hand.
Yes it can be removed by gutshot, and other spot removal. But With the new similar to Eldrazi direction AVR will probably take us, gutshot will probably not be used as much.
Also there are bigger targets then Looter, if my opponents waste a removal card on looter, instead of on a flipped Delver, or Metamorph copy of a 8/8 that is going to kill them.
Also there are counterspells that can protect looter from being removed. Also the Noxious Revival could be used to get looter back. Also could just draw another looter.
Now I am NOT saying looter is amazing,best ever. I was hoping that AVR would come up with better then looter, but failed to do so in dangerous wager, Mad prophet and lunar mystic.
Mad Prophet at 4 mana is to much mana. If it had been a 3 cmc, and a 1/2, Then it would have been a good replacement for looter.
And Lunar Mystic, also cost 4 mana for 2/2, that lets you pay 1 mana to draw a card every time you play a instant card.
The problem with that is again 4 mana to much, and it doesn't allow you to discard a miracle card. Again if it had been 3 cmc, a 1/2, let you discard a miracle card, on top of letting you draw a card for each instant you play,then that would have been better then looter.
So for now looter is a ok, better fit for the deck, until something comes out that is better.
I put in 1 more mana leak to help with control. And added 1 more Snap Caster Mage to help flashback more.
To add in 1 more mana leak, and 1 more Snapcaster Mage, I took out 1 Noxious Revival, and 1 dual casting.
I took out the Vanishment's, because Vanishment is only better, if don't need 4 of them. I found myself wanting 4 Vanishments. But 4 Vanishments won't work. That's why I put in the 4 Disperses. But if I only needed 3 Vanishments, I might have run Vanishment, over disperse.
Now I know that some would say taking out 1 noxious Revival, and 1 dual Casting, is better.
But if I could keep keep the 1 more dual casting, and 1 more noxious revival, and run 4 snapcaster mage, and 4 mana leaks, 4 Noxious Revivals, 4 Disperse, 3 Dual castings,etc, while not cutting anything else,I would.
The 3 Noxious Revival, just barely comes out enough at 1.35 of them per game, on average, and with 4 snapcasters to flashback it.
Note the cards between the Dual Casting, and the lands, is the sideboard.
I Can't get the thing to stick the sideboard cards cards underneath the sideboard heading where they belong.
I put in 1 more mana leak to help with control. And added 1 more Snap Caster Mage to help flashback more.
To add in 1 more mana leak, and 1 more Snapcaster Mage, I took out 1 Noxious Revival, and 1 dual casting.
Now I know that some would say taking out 1 noxious Revival, and 1 dual Casting, is better.
But if I could keep keep the 1 more dual casting, and 1 more noxious revival, and run 4 snapcaster mage, and 4 mana leaks, 4 Noxious Revivals, 3 Dual castings, while staying at 60 cards, and not cutting anything else, I would
But something had to be cut, that or goto 62 cards, 22 lands.
And that something was 1 dual casting, and 1 Noxious Revival.
The 3 Noxious Revival, just barely comes out enough at 1.35 of them per game, on average, and with 4 snapcasters to flashback it.
Note the cards between the Dual Casting, and the lands, is the sideboard.
I Can't get the thing to stick the sideboard cards cards underneath the sideboard heading where they belong.
It's ironic that y'alls decks remain flawed while the two of you are too busy writing essays saying why they're not. Hell, I don't even know why y'all would invade each others' post.
@Mikedh1: Your deck simply falls short.
- Merfolk looter will be sniped when it hits the board, and afterwards you won't have a discard outlet for the miracle cards stuck in your hand. It's folly to think that decks don't have removal and your opponents won't waste theirs on 3/2 and 2/2 vanillas.
- Dual Cast, likewise, is equally f***ed. It has to survive a turn on your 2 toughness creatures in order for it to duplicate a miracle effect.
- Noxious Revival is a horrible card that works well with miracles. That doesn't stop it from being a horrible card. You shock yourself every time you play it, lose card advantage, and risk clogging your opening hand with multiples.
- Another problem you'll run into is that your deck simply doesn't have the gas to win, or in rare cases the gas to take two victories. Delver is efficient but by no means that good, your burn will often times be forced to target important threats, the overall engine is both clanky and based on luck, and most SBs are already full of delver/graveyard hate.
@OP: Your deck is sadly too scattered.
- Why do you have 3 counter spells? Your deck isn't control in that respect and I doubt you'll have them when you need them with such a low count.
- You have no instant draw. It seems half-hearted that you would limit your miracles to your turn rather than include your opponent's turn as well.
- Shrine of Burning Rage doesn't work for this deck as another poster pointed out. Over half your creatures are blue and less than half your spells are red.
- The deck currently lacks three of the most powerful miracle cards: Bonfire of the Damned, Reforge the Soul, and Temporal Mastery. Fix that.
Merfolk looter won't be sniped, because opponents won't or shouldn't waste their precdious removal resources on it. I know I wouldn't. There are more important things to get rid of then looters.
And even if they get rid of looter, then thats why have 3 Desolate lighthouse lands. And also I can mana leak any attempt to get rid of looter, if I need it as a discarder. If I had a perfect draw, I could mana leak 13 times in a game.
So I have plenty of counter control fuel to stop foe's from trying to get rid of, stop my stuff.
Again if they try to get rid of dual cast, I mana leak them. Also I can play it in a way so that I minimize its exposure to removal. Rather then stick it out immediatly. I can wait until I have the Noxious + miracle card combo set up, and ready to go. Also IF they remove it after I get 1 or more copying out of it, then I still got value from it.
Also every card that you run as a 4 of, including Delver, clogs your hand with 3 of's in opening hand once in a great while, and not just Noxious Revival do that as a 4 of, but every card does that as a 4 of
Also most of the time, my deck doesn't run out of gas. The reason why it doesn't, is 1. All the lots of draw. 2. Extra turns from Mastery. 3. lots of deck manipulation, miracle enablers. 4. lots of CONTROL. Remember my deck can mana leak 13 times. And Ghost Quarter and Surgical extraction can deal with Cavern of souls. And I can bounce, and thunderous Wrath creatures over an over.
My deck is not very clunky. only the littlest tiny bit at most. And my deck is not luck based. The card draw cards, the deck manipulation, miracle enablers, and discarders, CONTROL the miracles. Control is not luck.
And my deck and my sideboard will deal with delver hate just fine. Between my deck and my sideboard, I have plenty enough Counterspells, and non land permanent bouncers, and naturalizes, Phyrexian Metamorphs, to deal with most threats. I can mana leak, or bounce, or naturalize Grafdigger cage, Ghoul caller's Bell, thought scour,etc. And then I can Surgical Extract Threats, and surgical extraction sideboard hate cards
my deck has answers to other answers, hate, and can deal with answers hate.
Yes my deck will run out of gass, steam, do nothing, fall short, about 13 to 23% of the time. Yes that means that I will probably lose games, and some matches when that happens. And Yes that means that I will probably win about 50% of games and matches vs the field, if my deck doesn't get hosed by the standard meta.
But about 63 to 83% of the time my deck will do whats it's designed to do effectively, and will work effectively, and be ok, decent,slightly above average, etc
But u Noxious REvival yourself, meaning U also bring sth to the top of your library, and the final effect is symetrical, both U and your opponent lose 1 draw.
Besides, it hits only nonland permenents.
But U still lose 1 card from your hand to organize topof your library. Thats -1 card advantage.
I know what I am thinking about,and it is Vanishment + Noxious Revival interaction, which is really poor, as I already said.
Basically, the whole deck is just garbage, and the only good thing about it is that it can sometimes cast 2-3 Thunderous Wraths throughout the game, and sometimes it will be winning play,but usually this deck will fall under opponent's pressure, because it is full of dead draws and cards disadvantage.
When you say the deck can sometimes cast 2-3 thunderous wraths, eliminate the word sometimes, and the numbers 2 or 3, and replace them with somewhere between some to MOST of the time, about 59 to 73% of the time cast 3,4,5 Thunderous wrath and or 3,4,5 Vanishment throughout the game somewhere between semi consistently to almost consistently some to MOST of the time,
The deck does cast Thunderous Wrath, and Vanishment over and over and over and over and over some TO MOST of the time about 59 to 73% of the time and that's a FACT.
But even if it the deck were to only casted 2 or 3 Wraths only sometimes at most(it works a lot more often then that, but lets play what if by wrongly saying it doesn't) lets say it only cast 1 to 2, or 1.5 wraths per game.
Now sometimes thats going to be copied, and sometimes not. So 1.5 wraths per game translates into 7.5 damage on average per Wrath. SO 1.5 Wraths per game on average, is about 13 damage per game from wrath on average
that means the deck only would haves to deal 7 more damage from other sources. And that's easily doable by delver.
But again lets say that that I only get 3 damage at first from delver. Then Vanishment, Thought Scour, Mana leak, Snap Mage, Metamorph, will control, drag the game along until Metamorph or Delver does 4 more damage for the win.
And if the deck doesn't get any or only 5 damage from Wrath? then the deck again either has delver and metamorph carry the day, or I control, drag the game along until wrath, delver, metamorph win.
And thats what would happen going by what you say..
But the deck does more then that. The deck usually cast 3.5 Thunderous wrath with .85 of 1 copy instance of Wrath per game, on average. where that comes from is the .75 to .85 top decked wrath per game. onj average. And 2,3, 2.5 more thunderous wraths per game on average from the Noxious Revival Wrath combo. That means the damage from the 3.5 wraths per game, and the .75 to .85 of 1 copy instance of wrath per game, is about 10 dmage from 1 of the 3.5 wraths, and 5 damage from 2 more wraths, and 2.5 dmage from the .5 of a wrath. That means that Thunderous wrath does about 17 to 23 points of damage per game on average per game about 59 to 73% of the time.
But there is about a 3 to 5% margin of error on that so lets say that we are both wrong and its somewhere in between what we both say. then that would be 15 to 20 damage per game on average, about 59 to 73% of the time, but with the 3 to 5 % room for error margin, that would be about 54 to 68% of the time.
So what happens the 32 to 46% of the time it does not do that?
like I said the Delver.r and metamorph win, or the the control drags the game along until I do win.
And sometimes the deck mixes it up all together and does a little bit of everything combined working together to win.
only rarely does my deck gas out and or do nothing, That only happens about 9 to 16% of the time.
You also don't seem to understand the TRADE OFF, PROFIT principle.
If you cast a card that did 7 damage to foe's face. According to what you said, that would be bad, because you lost a card(OH NO!!) But that is ok because its a fair trade off, because you got PROFIT, did 7 damage to foe's face.
Now apply that principle to Noxious Revival, and Vanishment
Yes technically I will lose a card because using Noxious Revival, and Vanishment, will put both in the Graveyard, where I would have to lose 1 card, a snapcaster mage to get them back
And I can just draw dig see get more cards. Yes I am still down 1 or 2 total card over all. But in the here and now I am drawing and seeing getting more cards.
So if I get get or see or dig, or draw 1 extra card, does it matter that I am technically still down 1 card overall? no it doesn't. that is, was HISTORY, what matters NOW is that I am drawing getting a card.
When you technically lose 1 card overall, and that turns ends, and a new turn starts, you wipe the board or slate clean. Its a NEW TURN.
Or even if your still in the same turn, and you lose a card. THAT"S HISTORY, because you the draw get a extra card.
Do you know why cycling decks were so sick back in the day? Its that even when they lost a card, they got to cycle thru their deck and see and draw more cards then they would if they had lost a card, and then were not able to cycle. just seeing more cards, and drawing more cards, whether your down 1 card or 20 cards is a ADVANTAGE
That's why that self mill decks even though they lose a lot of cards, they are seeing and having access to a lot of cards, and that's an advantage.
Now You just got 1 extra card then normal during THAT turn, even though your still down 1 card. That's an advantage. Getting a card is ALWAYS an advantage, no matter whether your behind cards or not.
Its like you and others OBSESS over losing a card, when getting a good trade off for the card. Yes I get that my deck is 1/2 tempo, 1/2 combos, And that tempo is important, and how win.
But if you were to win the game after you lost tempo and a card, when you traded away that tempo, card, to win the game, you would then be saying after you won the game OH NO I lost tempo, and lost a card!!!!!!
BIG DEAL! SO WHAT! so what you lost a card or tempo, you just WON THE GAME
Now what do I get for losing 1 or 2 cards? I get to bounce that Sword, or planeswalker, or creature that's going to kill me, lose me the game,etc back to the top of opponents library. where the opponents loses 1 card, 1 attack, 1 activation at minimum. and if it was a planewalker, its going to take him 2 to 5 more turns to get back what he lost.
So I just bought myself TIME. Time that can be used to OH I don't know WIN THE GAME PERHAPS, or deal with opponents threats. I just traded a lost card or 2 for that. BIG DEAL. I just gained a LOT OF PROFIT in that FAIR TRADE OFF.
And I can always draw more cards later on. Will I still be technically down a card or 2? yes.
But like I said THAT"S HISTORY. That's then. what matters is now or what I am going to do. And that is that I am probably draw more cards. which mean that now or in the future I am going to be getting a advantage by drawing some cards, even though I am technically down 1 card in the HISTORY of what happened.
Magic is about PROFIT, TRADE OFFS, Pay Outs, VALUE, Advantage, Sacrifice, etc.
Magic is about do X, or do X and Z, and or X and Z and A to get Y, thus losing X, or X and Z or X and Z and A..
All that matters is if Y is WORTH the trade off.
The ONLY way Noxious Revival and Vanishment is not good, is IF IF the combo gets mana leaked(but then O can mana leak the mana leak), or if somebody uses a Ghoul Caller Bell, or Thought Scour, to mill the Vanishment(again I can either get rid of Ghoul Caller bell, or mana leak Thought scour, and similar cards.
And even if that were to happen, that just means that they were not good that particular INSTANCE
Most of some to most of the time the noxious Revival and Vanishment combo is going to be good
So your just absolute flat out wrong, the deck is not garbage. The deck does what it was designed to do about 63 to 83% of the time give or take 3 to 5% + or -. The deck work, is viable, playable, is ok, decent, slightly above average, etc.
Now note working does not necessarily mean winning. A deck can still lose no matter how awesomely well the deck plays, just because the opponents deck either got lucky or played even better.
If the deck ends up poorly position in the standard meta, then it will not work, and or not win.
But the deck game mechanically, generally, generically, statistically, odds, logically, probability wise, mathematically will do what its designed to do and thus be playable, and thus work, and be effective 63 to 83 % of the time
This deck is kind of like a burning vengeance deck, and or a infect deck and or a land destruction deck. those decks did what they were supposed to do but got hosed by the meta.
When I made my land destruction deck. I won a lot of games and placed well in tourneys. it WORKED. it was EFFECTIVE. it did what it was designed to do.
It destroyed lots of land, it removed parmanents that slipped thru the cracks that got out. It got out charmbreaker, or a mimic vated Acidic slime, or a Hoard smelter dragon and LQ metal coating combo's out. It searched up stuff with Brutalizer exarch, it had card draw.
Some people said the same about that deck, that it sucked that it wouldnt work.
but it did. work.
It just eventually got hosed by the meta
Well this deck likewise works.
the only way it won't work, is if it gets hosed by the meta.
how quckly people forget about Goblin Chieftain that can easily come out turn 2.
Goblin Chhieftain gives a PERMANENT +1/+1 and HASTE, wheile bushwhackers gives a TEMPORARY +1/+1, and haste, and ONLY IF paid the KICKER COST, which if pay, means it cost 2 red for bushwahcker to do that, TEMPRORARILY, and CHIEFTAIN 3 mana, just 1 more mana then whacker, to do that PERMANENTLY.
1. Drawing,Digging, until I get to cast, copy Thunderous Wrath, and Vanishment over and over and over and over For 5 to 10 damage to foe's face or creatures, or Vanishment 1 or 2 of foe's creatures, or permanents to the top of Foe's library, where Foe either loses card draw, suffer card disadvantage, or I mana leak creatures, or permanents, or I Thought scour mill the creatures, or permanents
I do that by drawing, digging,pondering, milling pondered garbage, discarding miracle cards from hand, Noxious Revivaling miracle cards during foe's turn to put a miracle card back on top of my library, and then drawing and playing the miracle card during foe's turn, so that don't lose the card advantage of my draw step.
Also the snapcaster mages, and metamorph copies of Snapcaster Mages flash back re uses card draw spells.
2. The Delvers, and Metamorph copies of flipped Delvers, and metamorph copies of foe's nasty creatures Win.
3. I control the game, and drag the game along, until win. Snap caster and Metamorph flash back re use control cards
4. The deck Voltronically wins by having all the things synergistically working together to to win.
Also just so you all know in case there is any confusion. the cards listed above the LANDS category in, on the deck list, and to the left side of the SIDEBOARD section, that doesnt have any cards under it, are the side board cards.
what happened is that when I posted the deck list, the thing would not put the sideboard cards underneath, in the sideboard word section.
So the 3 Devastation Tides, and 3 naturalizes, and the 3 Tunnel Ignus, and the 2 dissipates, and 2 Surgical Extractions, and the 2 Grafdigger's Cages, are ALL, SIDEBOARD cards, in the SIDEBOARD.
They are not part of the main deck.
Reason why I am pointing this out is that it seems like 1 person has already either gotten Vanishment, and Devastation Tide confused, and or thought the Devastation Tides were main decked, when they are not, and are,is SIDEBOARDED, instead.
The reason why you don't play test against for and only as an example: Brian Kibblers deck that won the last 2 Pro tour Events(again only an example, not saying he did):
Yes your trying to show deck is competitive. Putting a deck up against Brian Kibblers deck isnt the way to do it. Yes any deck might actually consistently beat Brian Kibblers deck, and show that the deck is competitive.
But what is more likely, is that most competitive decks that go up against Brian Kibblers deck, will get it's ass kicked over and over and over, over the long term, most likely.
A good comparision for this is again poker.
You take a very, extremely good poker player, that plays extremely good poker in a very good game.
Now you put that same player up against the worlds best poker players, and that good poker player gets crushed.
Does that mean that poker player is not good, not competitive? NO. That poker player is,was consistently winning, outplaying, crushing everything, up until he had to play the worlds best poker players a lot.
That same kind of thing is true for magic.
My deck could very well do good at hard core competitive FNM's, City convention tourneys, and STATES tourneys, and semi major event tourneys.
And if that happened, that would mean that my deck was good to great, competitive.
But if my deck did that, and then got crushed by Brian Kibblers PRO DECK, over and over and over consistently, would that mean that the deck wasn't good, not competitive, just because it got consistently crushed by Brian Kibblers PRO DECK? NO.
That's why testing my deck against BRIAN KIBBLERS PRO DECK, wouldn't be a fair test. Just like testing a good poker player, against the world best would also not be a fair test to see if the player was a good poker player or not.
A better, more fair test for the deck, would be against what the deck would see at FNM's, at competitive magic tourneys, States,etc.
At these tourney's if you do see a exact copy of BRIAN KIBBLERS PRO DECK, it's usually played by someone who is somewhere below average, average, or just barely slightly above average, and most certainly not a pro, or a very good player, most of the time(there are exceptions).
At one of those tourneys you should expect to see a mix of:
Zombies, Delver, WRR, Humans, Spirits, Tokens, Frites, Werewolf, WW, Goblins, Tempered Steel,etc.
And usually those decks won't be exact copies of the PRO BUILDS of those decks. And if they are, they are played by no good, non pro players, who won't play the PRO BUILDS of those decks as well as they could be.
Most of the time players will play similar to very similar copies of those decks. And altho competitive, most of the players are not pros.
Thats why a fair test of a U/R miracle card deck, would be against NON EXACTLY COPIED PRO BUILDS, and against the types of decks you would expect to see at extremely competitive FNM's, CITY, CONVENTIONAL, REGIONAL, STATES tourneys.
Then if the deck does well against that, THEN, and ONLY THEN test the deck against BRIAN KIBBLERS PRO DECK. and then if the deck tested well against all that, then take the deck to GP's, PTQ's, etc.
I have seen many times where somebody said that a deck tested crappy vs a PRO DECK, only to hear of it doing well at STATES tournies etc.
And thats exactly why testing against a PRO Deck is not a fair test to see whether a deck is good, effective, competitive,etc.
Many tier 1.35 to tier 1.85 decks get crushed by by PRO decks, while doing well everywhere else.
You already mentioned the 4 Mana leaks
3 disperse, 3 metamorphs, and 3 thunderous Wraths are very reliable, to go with the 4 mana leak counterspells.
3 Disperse is better then 3 Vapor Snag.
3 Metamorph copies, deals with everything but HORDES.
3 thunderous Wrath deals 5 damage to creature or player.
The deck is RIGGED to make thunderous wrath consistent
3 Mastery gives extra turns that gives extra draw, extra land, extra attack phases to either get cards to deal with creatures, or to win. And your opponent can't attack you during the extra turns, that can win you the game, play creatures, find ways to deal with creatures,etc. Deck is RIGGED to make Mastery consistent
3 Devastation Tides(sideboard)
Is a board wiper. Deck is RIGGED to make devastation tide consistent
3 Crippling Chills: Taps creatures for 2 turns
The problem you have, is that you only see each card in a vacuum, and don't see how the cards work together.
There are 19 to 22 cards, that deal with creatures.
Yes sure if you only look at the 3 disperses,or 3 Vapor Snags, or 3 Crippling Chills, in a vacuum, or any of the other cards, in a vacuum, its not going to look very good.
But when you look at how the cards work,interacts, interchange, synergize, work together, then thats when you should be able to see how the cards deal with creatures.
Delver(not this delverish deck), is,was the best deck. It only had counterpsells, and Vapor Snags, to deal with creatures. But yet Delver dealt with creatures just fine.
my deck, this deck, has the same counterpsells, and a Disperse version of Vapor Snag, that Delver has,had, and also has thunderous Wrath, and Mastery, and Metamorph, which is more stuff to deal with creatures, then Delver(which dealt with creatures just fine), had.
So since Delver dealt with creatures just fine, and since this deck has more stuff to deal with creatures then Delver did, then this deck should also deal with creatures just fine.
anybody who doesn't think so either doesn't know magic, or they are illogical, or must say that the Delver deck, which is, was the best deck, does not deal with creatures just fine.
And saying that would be illogical, because If Delver hadn't dealt with creatures just fine, it wouldn't have become the best deck, that it became.
1. what is MWS?
2. the deck is still in early stages of being fine tuned, tweaked, etc. 1 more or 1 less of a card, or 1 slightly different card, here or there can make a big difference.
3. As long as your decks are not pro build deck list of deck that have won, or top 4 to top 8 pro eve4nts,etc
4. As long as your decks are a mix, and not all of the same type(like if your decks were all tempered steel, or kuldotha rebirth goblin decks, that could produce skewed results)
5. As long as the sample size was at least 75 to 500 games.
6. As long as you had someone else that doesn't know how to play your decks as well as you do, play your deck, since you probably don't know how to play my deck as well it could, or should be played.
7. As long as you either did redo's of play mistakes, and or played my deck well.
More then 4 answers. The Way you say it makes it sound like literally 4 cards, that ere either a 1 card at a 4 of, or 2 cards at a 2 of.
There are 4 Mana leaks, 3 Disperse, 3 Crippling Chills, 3 Metamorphs, 3 Masterys, 3 Thunderous Wraths, 3 Devastation Tides(sideboard)
That's 7 cards, that all added up together is 22, 22, TWENTY TWO cards, not just, only 4.
And then you have 3 noxious revival's, and 4 Snapcaster Mage's, That's 7, SEVEN more cards, that RE USE the 22 other cards that deal with creatures just fine.
And if that weren't enough there are 16 card draw cards, that help the other 22 cards come out.
I have a HELL of a LOT of fuel to mana leak counterpsell, bounce, copy, board wipe, creatures.
And previous Delver Decks, before miracle delverish, had less then that, and they dealt with creatures just fine
learn how statistics and magic work
4 mana leaks, 3 Ghost quarters, 3 Disperse, 3 Crippling Chill's, 3 sideboarded devastation Tides, 3 sideboarded Naturalizes to deal with creatures, cavern of souls, planewalkers, artifacts, enchantments,aggro,etc, and then 4 Snapcaster Mages, and 3 Noxious Revivals, to re use all of the above, IS NOT MIAGICAL CHRISTMAS LAND.
ANY and all of those cards deal with problems threats, etc. And all of those cards, are either 4 of's and 3 of's.
which means they will usually come out enough. Magical Christmas land is where you either don't get things out often enough, and or having to combine way to many things, and is where you then have to get insanely lucky to get those cards out.
Getting 1 or 2 out of 4 mana leaks out in a draw happy deck, is not lucky. Getting 1 of 3 Disperse out is not lucky. Getting 1 of 3 Ghost Quarters is not lucky. Getting 1 of 3 Crippling Chills is not lucky. Getting 1 or 2 out of 4 Snapcaster Mages to re use those cards is not lucky. Getting 1 of a 3,4 of card, and a 1 of another 3,4 of card in a combo is not lucky
The deck will consistently mana leak creatures, bounce creatures, tap creatures, copy creatures, board wipe creatures, because of the 4 mana leaks, 4 Snapcaster Mages, 3 disperse, 3 noxious Revivals, 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs, 3 Temporal Masterys, 3 Thunderous Wraths, 3 naturalizes (sideboard), 3 Devastation Tides(sideboard),etc
That's a hell of a lot of CONSISTENT ways to deal with creatures, aggro, artifacts, enchantments, planewalkers. And all that is consistent
So the deck is not magical Christmas land, and is consistent in dealing with creatures, aggro, artifacts, enchantments, planewalkers
if you think that is magic Christmas land, then you need to learn about statistics, because when you have a lot of things at a 4 of, and 3 of, to deal with creatures, aggro, artifacts, planeswalkers, that is statistically consistent.
Now if I had a bunch of 1 of's that dealt with those problems, that would be magic Christmas land
And also if opponent tries to stop me from using any of, and all of those cards thru either counterspelling,or spot removal,etc, then I mana leak them.
And the deck can with the ultimate Christmas land draw, mana leak a maximum of 14 times. That mean's I should be able to mana leak about 3.33 times per game on average.
Counterspells, disperse, crippling chills, is plenty enough to deal with an opponent that attacks a lot, and builds a big board presence.
1. first they have to get a creature out. MANA LEAK. Yes there is Cavern of souls. But Cavern of souls, is likely only played in tribal, aggro decks. And if they do stick out a Cavern of Souls, then I ghost quarter it. And go on my merry way mana leaking
2. if they are playing a semi super fast Aggro deck, or if I can't counter their creatures. Then I can Bounce their creatures, or can I can tap their creatures for 2 turns while drawing a card, and I can Temporal Mastery extra turn.
3. I can race them. The fastest this deck can win is turn 3 with either about 18 damage from multiple Delver's. or a combo of Delver and 15 from 1 wrath, and 1 copied wrath
4. if nothing works game 1: I lose game 1 about 59% to 73% of the time vs semi super fast aggro decks, like Kuldotha Rebirth Goblin,etc.
But then I side in 3 Devastation Tides(a miracle board wipe card), games 2,3, and board wipe them over and over and over and over, the next 2 games, to win.
Also I think semi superfast Aggro decks won't be played as much. yes sure they will get a bump in play for a while, because of Cavern of the Souls, until they get board wiped over and over, by non counterspell decks.
Also before U/R miracle Delver, Delver decks did just fine vs Aggro decks, often times with 10 to 13 creatures.( My U/R miracle delverish deck has 1 more creature then that at 14 creatures)
And finally if the meta goes superfast win by turns 3,4,5 Aggro, and thus hoses the deck. Then so be it.
I have said that the only way the deck will not work, be effective, win,etc, is IF IT GETS HOSED BY THE META.
but other then that the deck effectively does what it is designed to do effectively, and works effectively. It will Thunderous Wrath over and over and over. It will produce about 1.75 to 3.5 extra turns per game. It will have Delver and Metamorph copies of others 8/8's,etc deal lots of damage.
5. Planewalkers are not a problem. I can counter them, or I can Disperse bounces Planeswalkers quite nicely, so that I can then counter them, or if not they at least reset, and take 2,3,4,5 more turns before they get close to going off.
Also Delver, can fly in and kill planewalkers.
And I can counter artifacts, enchantments, like swords, etc. Or I can Disperse them, or the creatures they are attached to.
Instants.15, or 16, or 17
4 Mana Leaks
3, or 4 Noxious Revivals
3 Thunderous Wrath
3 Disperse
3 Crippling Chill or Thought Scour(depending on the meta. If lots of bigger threat creatures, then Criplling Chill to tap them and draw. If more aggro base, then Thought Scour)
Sorcery:7
4 Ponder
3 Temporal Mastery.
Creatures:14
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver
3 Phyrexian Metamorph.
3 Merfolk looter.
Enchantment: 2, or 3
2, or 3 Dual Casting
Land: 21, or 22
7 island
2 mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Hinterland Harbor.
3 Desolate Lighthouse
2, or 3 Ghost Quarter
Sideboard.
3 Naturalize
3 Tunnel Ignus
3 Devastation Tide
2 Negate
2 Surgical extraction
2 Nihil Spell Bomb
Deck Link:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/thunderous-miraculous-mastery-1/
4 Noxious Revival's can be the right number of them in the deck, IF, IF you maximize the benefit of running 4 of them.
If you can CONSISTENTLY Thunderous Wrath over and over and over. Also 3 copies of ANY card that you run as a 4 of, that end up in opening hand is bad.
Also 1 noxious revival in opening hand can be good, if you drop a red mana land, turn 1, and then Thunderous Wrath turn 2. And then Noxious Revive it to top of library during opponent's turn 3, and then draw and cast it during your opponents turn 3.
But all that may be a moot point about Noxious Revival, because 2 metamorph, and 3 Snapcaster Mages, and 3 mana leaks, are not enough.
And the only way I can fit in 1 more Metamorph, 1 more Snapcaster Mage, and 1 more mana leak, is to go with 3 Noxious Revival, instead of 4. Now if there was room to run 4 noxious revival, I would. I just don't see the room for 4 noxious revival, and only see room for 3 noxious revival.
If players waste their removal on looter, instead of on a flipped Delver, or on a metamorph copy of a 8/8 that's going to kill them, then that's a good thing.
Now sure those other threats probably won't be out earlier on when looter is out. But a good magic player anticipates threats.
I wouldn't waste removal on a looter, because I would anticipate wasting a removal spell on looter, and then getting STOMPED by something better later, that I might not have a removal spell for later, because I wasted it on looter.
Also if had to I could use Noxious Revival to get looter back. And I could also COUNTERSPELL a removal attempt to get rid of looter. Also I could just draw another looter.
And also that's why I have 2,3 Desolate lighthouse as back up for looter. Between the looters, and the Desolate lighthouse, that should probably be just fine.
I have come to the same conclusion on Vexing devil. ON PAPER and in sample hands, sample games, casual games, etc, it seems like it should work. But since people will figure out that taking the 4 damage from Vexing Devil, just helps this deck win faster, they will deal with Vexing Devil by just allowing it, and then chump blocking it until they either remove it or put something bigger out.
And if they take the 4 damage. Then I won't have a creature base to attack, block with. And there just isn't room for both Delver and Vexing Devil. I can use those slots for running 4 delver's and other things. And 4 Delvers is better then 3 Vexing Devils, and 3 Delvers
The problem with Faithless looting, is that it isn't instant speed to do during your opponents turn. If you do a faithless looting during your turn, then there is chance you could draw a miracle as the 2nd card drawn, and thus not be able to play it for it's miracle cost, and thus either discard, or draw it into your hand.
Merfolk looter is better because you can use it during your opponents turn to draw and play miracles, and can discard miracles from hand.
Yes it can be removed by gutshot, and other spot removal. But With the new similar to Eldrazi direction AVR will probably take us, gutshot will probably not be used as much.
Also there are bigger targets then Looter, if my opponents waste a removal card on looter, instead of on a flipped Delver, or Metamorph copy of a 8/8 that is going to kill them.
Also there are counterspells that can protect looter from being removed. Also the Noxious Revival could be used to get looter back. Also could just draw another looter.
Now I am NOT saying looter is amazing,best ever. I was hoping that AVR would come up with better then looter, but failed to do so in dangerous wager, Mad prophet and lunar mystic.
Mad Prophet at 4 mana is to much mana. If it had been a 3 cmc, and a 1/2, Then it would have been a good replacement for looter.
And Lunar Mystic, also cost 4 mana for 2/2, that lets you pay 1 mana to draw a card every time you play a instant card.
The problem with that is again 4 mana to much, and it doesn't allow you to discard a miracle card. Again if it had been 3 cmc, a 1/2, let you discard a miracle card, on top of letting you draw a card for each instant you play,then that would have been better then looter.
So for now looter is a ok, better fit for the deck, until something comes out that is better.
So here is my Updated, Changed U/R Thunderous Wrath, Temporal Mastery, miracle card, Semi Control, Card Draw, Miracle Enablers, Semi Aggro, Delverish miracle card Deck:
3 Noxious Revival
3 Thunderous Wrath
4 Disperse
3 Thought Scour
4 Ponder
3 Temporal Mastery.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver
3 Phyrexian Metamorph.
3 Merfolk looter
2 Dual Casting
3 Tunnel Ignus
3 Devastation Tide
2 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
7 Island
2 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Hinterland Harbor.
3 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Ghost Quarter
Here is also the link to my Deck Page:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/thunderous-miraculous-mastery-1/#
I put in 1 more mana leak to help with control. And added 1 more Snap Caster Mage to help flashback more.
To add in 1 more mana leak, and 1 more Snapcaster Mage, I took out 1 Noxious Revival, and 1 dual casting.
I took out the Vanishment's, because Vanishment is only better, if don't need 4 of them. I found myself wanting 4 Vanishments. But 4 Vanishments won't work. That's why I put in the 4 Disperses. But if I only needed 3 Vanishments, I might have run Vanishment, over disperse.
Now I know that some would say taking out 1 noxious Revival, and 1 dual Casting, is better.
But if I could keep keep the 1 more dual casting, and 1 more noxious revival, and run 4 snapcaster mage, and 4 mana leaks, 4 Noxious Revivals, 4 Disperse, 3 Dual castings,etc, while not cutting anything else,I would.
The 3 Noxious Revival, just barely comes out enough at 1.35 of them per game, on average, and with 4 snapcasters to flashback it.
Note the cards between the Dual Casting, and the lands, is the sideboard.
I Can't get the thing to stick the sideboard cards cards underneath the sideboard heading where they belong.
So here is my Updated, Changed U/R Thunderous Wrath, Temporal Mastery, Vanishment, miracle card, Semi Control, Card Draw, Miracle Enablers, Semi Aggro, Delverish miracle card Deck:
60 cards, 21 lands, 4, 4x 4 of's, 1, 2x 2 of,(Dual Cast) and the rest 3 of's.
3 Noxious Revival
3 Thunderous Wrath
3 Vanishment
3 Thought Scour
4 Ponder
3 Temporal Mastery.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver
3 Phyrexian Metamorph.
3 Merfolk looter
2 Dual Casting
3 Tunnel Ignus
3 Devastation Tide
2 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
7 Island
2 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Hinterland Harbor.
3 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Ghost Quarter
Here is also the link to my Deck Page:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/thunderous-miraculous-mastery-1/#
I put in 1 more mana leak to help with control. And added 1 more Snap Caster Mage to help flashback more.
To add in 1 more mana leak, and 1 more Snapcaster Mage, I took out 1 Noxious Revival, and 1 dual casting.
Now I know that some would say taking out 1 noxious Revival, and 1 dual Casting, is better.
But if I could keep keep the 1 more dual casting, and 1 more noxious revival, and run 4 snapcaster mage, and 4 mana leaks, 4 Noxious Revivals, 3 Dual castings, while staying at 60 cards, and not cutting anything else, I would
But something had to be cut, that or goto 62 cards, 22 lands.
And that something was 1 dual casting, and 1 Noxious Revival.
The 3 Noxious Revival, just barely comes out enough at 1.35 of them per game, on average, and with 4 snapcasters to flashback it.
Note the cards between the Dual Casting, and the lands, is the sideboard.
I Can't get the thing to stick the sideboard cards cards underneath the sideboard heading where they belong.
Merfolk looter won't be sniped, because opponents won't or shouldn't waste their precdious removal resources on it. I know I wouldn't. There are more important things to get rid of then looters.
And even if they get rid of looter, then thats why have 3 Desolate lighthouse lands. And also I can mana leak any attempt to get rid of looter, if I need it as a discarder. If I had a perfect draw, I could mana leak 13 times in a game.
So I have plenty of counter control fuel to stop foe's from trying to get rid of, stop my stuff.
Again if they try to get rid of dual cast, I mana leak them. Also I can play it in a way so that I minimize its exposure to removal. Rather then stick it out immediatly. I can wait until I have the Noxious + miracle card combo set up, and ready to go. Also IF they remove it after I get 1 or more copying out of it, then I still got value from it.
Also every card that you run as a 4 of, including Delver, clogs your hand with 3 of's in opening hand once in a great while, and not just Noxious Revival do that as a 4 of, but every card does that as a 4 of
Also most of the time, my deck doesn't run out of gas. The reason why it doesn't, is 1. All the lots of draw. 2. Extra turns from Mastery. 3. lots of deck manipulation, miracle enablers. 4. lots of CONTROL. Remember my deck can mana leak 13 times. And Ghost Quarter and Surgical extraction can deal with Cavern of souls. And I can bounce, and thunderous Wrath creatures over an over.
My deck is not very clunky. only the littlest tiny bit at most. And my deck is not luck based. The card draw cards, the deck manipulation, miracle enablers, and discarders, CONTROL the miracles. Control is not luck.
And my deck and my sideboard will deal with delver hate just fine. Between my deck and my sideboard, I have plenty enough Counterspells, and non land permanent bouncers, and naturalizes, Phyrexian Metamorphs, to deal with most threats. I can mana leak, or bounce, or naturalize Grafdigger cage, Ghoul caller's Bell, thought scour,etc. And then I can Surgical Extract Threats, and surgical extraction sideboard hate cards
my deck has answers to other answers, hate, and can deal with answers hate.
Yes my deck will run out of gass, steam, do nothing, fall short, about 13 to 23% of the time. Yes that means that I will probably lose games, and some matches when that happens. And Yes that means that I will probably win about 50% of games and matches vs the field, if my deck doesn't get hosed by the standard meta.
But about 63 to 83% of the time my deck will do whats it's designed to do effectively, and will work effectively, and be ok, decent,slightly above average, etc
When you say the deck can sometimes cast 2-3 thunderous wraths, eliminate the word sometimes, and the numbers 2 or 3, and replace them with somewhere between some to MOST of the time, about 59 to 73% of the time cast 3,4,5 Thunderous wrath and or 3,4,5 Vanishment throughout the game somewhere between semi consistently to almost consistently some to MOST of the time,
The deck does cast Thunderous Wrath, and Vanishment over and over and over and over and over some TO MOST of the time about 59 to 73% of the time and that's a FACT.
But even if it the deck were to only casted 2 or 3 Wraths only sometimes at most(it works a lot more often then that, but lets play what if by wrongly saying it doesn't) lets say it only cast 1 to 2, or 1.5 wraths per game.
Now sometimes thats going to be copied, and sometimes not. So 1.5 wraths per game translates into 7.5 damage on average per Wrath. SO 1.5 Wraths per game on average, is about 13 damage per game from wrath on average
that means the deck only would haves to deal 7 more damage from other sources. And that's easily doable by delver.
But again lets say that that I only get 3 damage at first from delver. Then Vanishment, Thought Scour, Mana leak, Snap Mage, Metamorph, will control, drag the game along until Metamorph or Delver does 4 more damage for the win.
And if the deck doesn't get any or only 5 damage from Wrath? then the deck again either has delver and metamorph carry the day, or I control, drag the game along until wrath, delver, metamorph win.
And thats what would happen going by what you say..
But the deck does more then that. The deck usually cast 3.5 Thunderous wrath with .85 of 1 copy instance of Wrath per game, on average. where that comes from is the .75 to .85 top decked wrath per game. onj average. And 2,3, 2.5 more thunderous wraths per game on average from the Noxious Revival Wrath combo. That means the damage from the 3.5 wraths per game, and the .75 to .85 of 1 copy instance of wrath per game, is about 10 dmage from 1 of the 3.5 wraths, and 5 damage from 2 more wraths, and 2.5 dmage from the .5 of a wrath. That means that Thunderous wrath does about 17 to 23 points of damage per game on average per game about 59 to 73% of the time.
But there is about a 3 to 5% margin of error on that so lets say that we are both wrong and its somewhere in between what we both say. then that would be 15 to 20 damage per game on average, about 59 to 73% of the time, but with the 3 to 5 % room for error margin, that would be about 54 to 68% of the time.
So what happens the 32 to 46% of the time it does not do that?
like I said the Delver.r and metamorph win, or the the control drags the game along until I do win.
And sometimes the deck mixes it up all together and does a little bit of everything combined working together to win.
only rarely does my deck gas out and or do nothing, That only happens about 9 to 16% of the time.
You also don't seem to understand the TRADE OFF, PROFIT principle.
If you cast a card that did 7 damage to foe's face. According to what you said, that would be bad, because you lost a card(OH NO!!) But that is ok because its a fair trade off, because you got PROFIT, did 7 damage to foe's face.
Now apply that principle to Noxious Revival, and Vanishment
Yes technically I will lose a card because using Noxious Revival, and Vanishment, will put both in the Graveyard, where I would have to lose 1 card, a snapcaster mage to get them back
And I can just draw dig see get more cards. Yes I am still down 1 or 2 total card over all. But in the here and now I am drawing and seeing getting more cards.
So if I get get or see or dig, or draw 1 extra card, does it matter that I am technically still down 1 card overall? no it doesn't. that is, was HISTORY, what matters NOW is that I am drawing getting a card.
When you technically lose 1 card overall, and that turns ends, and a new turn starts, you wipe the board or slate clean. Its a NEW TURN.
Or even if your still in the same turn, and you lose a card. THAT"S HISTORY, because you the draw get a extra card.
Do you know why cycling decks were so sick back in the day? Its that even when they lost a card, they got to cycle thru their deck and see and draw more cards then they would if they had lost a card, and then were not able to cycle. just seeing more cards, and drawing more cards, whether your down 1 card or 20 cards is a ADVANTAGE
That's why that self mill decks even though they lose a lot of cards, they are seeing and having access to a lot of cards, and that's an advantage.
Now You just got 1 extra card then normal during THAT turn, even though your still down 1 card. That's an advantage. Getting a card is ALWAYS an advantage, no matter whether your behind cards or not.
Its like you and others OBSESS over losing a card, when getting a good trade off for the card. Yes I get that my deck is 1/2 tempo, 1/2 combos, And that tempo is important, and how win.
But if you were to win the game after you lost tempo and a card, when you traded away that tempo, card, to win the game, you would then be saying after you won the game OH NO I lost tempo, and lost a card!!!!!!
BIG DEAL! SO WHAT! so what you lost a card or tempo, you just WON THE GAME
Now what do I get for losing 1 or 2 cards? I get to bounce that Sword, or planeswalker, or creature that's going to kill me, lose me the game,etc back to the top of opponents library. where the opponents loses 1 card, 1 attack, 1 activation at minimum. and if it was a planewalker, its going to take him 2 to 5 more turns to get back what he lost.
So I just bought myself TIME. Time that can be used to OH I don't know WIN THE GAME PERHAPS, or deal with opponents threats. I just traded a lost card or 2 for that. BIG DEAL. I just gained a LOT OF PROFIT in that FAIR TRADE OFF.
And I can always draw more cards later on. Will I still be technically down a card or 2? yes.
But like I said THAT"S HISTORY. That's then. what matters is now or what I am going to do. And that is that I am probably draw more cards. which mean that now or in the future I am going to be getting a advantage by drawing some cards, even though I am technically down 1 card in the HISTORY of what happened.
Magic is about PROFIT, TRADE OFFS, Pay Outs, VALUE, Advantage, Sacrifice, etc.
Magic is about do X, or do X and Z, and or X and Z and A to get Y, thus losing X, or X and Z or X and Z and A..
All that matters is if Y is WORTH the trade off.
The ONLY way Noxious Revival and Vanishment is not good, is IF IF the combo gets mana leaked(but then O can mana leak the mana leak), or if somebody uses a Ghoul Caller Bell, or Thought Scour, to mill the Vanishment(again I can either get rid of Ghoul Caller bell, or mana leak Thought scour, and similar cards.
And even if that were to happen, that just means that they were not good that particular INSTANCE
Most of some to most of the time the noxious Revival and Vanishment combo is going to be good
So your just absolute flat out wrong, the deck is not garbage. The deck does what it was designed to do about 63 to 83% of the time give or take 3 to 5% + or -. The deck work, is viable, playable, is ok, decent, slightly above average, etc.
Now note working does not necessarily mean winning. A deck can still lose no matter how awesomely well the deck plays, just because the opponents deck either got lucky or played even better.
If the deck ends up poorly position in the standard meta, then it will not work, and or not win.
But the deck game mechanically, generally, generically, statistically, odds, logically, probability wise, mathematically will do what its designed to do and thus be playable, and thus work, and be effective 63 to 83 % of the time
This deck is kind of like a burning vengeance deck, and or a infect deck and or a land destruction deck. those decks did what they were supposed to do but got hosed by the meta.
When I made my land destruction deck. I won a lot of games and placed well in tourneys. it WORKED. it was EFFECTIVE. it did what it was designed to do.
It destroyed lots of land, it removed parmanents that slipped thru the cracks that got out. It got out charmbreaker, or a mimic vated Acidic slime, or a Hoard smelter dragon and LQ metal coating combo's out. It searched up stuff with Brutalizer exarch, it had card draw.
Some people said the same about that deck, that it sucked that it wouldnt work.
but it did. work.
It just eventually got hosed by the meta
Well this deck likewise works.
the only way it won't work, is if it gets hosed by the meta.
Goblin Chhieftain gives a PERMANENT +1/+1 and HASTE, wheile bushwhackers gives a TEMPORARY +1/+1, and haste, and ONLY IF paid the KICKER COST, which if pay, means it cost 2 red for bushwahcker to do that, TEMPRORARILY, and CHIEFTAIN 3 mana, just 1 more mana then whacker, to do that PERMANENTLY.
And CHIEFTAIN is still still standard legal.
oh But how quickly CHIEFTAIN IS FORGOTTEN
Also just so you all know in case there is any confusion. the cards listed above the LANDS category in, on the deck list, and to the left side of the SIDEBOARD section, that doesnt have any cards under it, are the side board cards.
what happened is that when I posted the deck list, the thing would not put the sideboard cards underneath, in the sideboard word section.
So the 3 Devastation Tides, and 3 naturalizes, and the 3 Tunnel Ignus, and the 2 dissipates, and 2 Surgical Extractions, and the 2 Grafdigger's Cages, are ALL, SIDEBOARD cards, in the SIDEBOARD.
They are not part of the main deck.
Reason why I am pointing this out is that it seems like 1 person has already either gotten Vanishment, and Devastation Tide confused, and or thought the Devastation Tides were main decked, when they are not, and are,is SIDEBOARDED, instead.