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    posted a message on Burn
    I do want to take the time to remind people that we need a VERY good reason not to play a full playset of any given card. This is true for most competitive Magic decks, but is especially true for Burn. Those reasons exist, I do it myself, but if you're testing a new card out you should probably play the full playset. Splits in a deck without heavy filtering are often too inconsistent, and ends up doing half of two jobs instead of one job well.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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    posted a message on Burn
    I would definitely like to see Chalice, I put that up there with Leyline as cards that just end me if I can't answer it.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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    posted a message on Burn
    To continue my conversation about Gonti's Machinations from the last primer:

    Just played a game against Scapeshift. He was at 7, I had a Boros Charm in hand, and a Machinations on the field with one energy in my pool. I passed the turn to my opponent. He cast Scapeshift and went off, aiming six triggers at me. I cast my Charm in response, let one trigger resolve (gaining an energy counter), and popped the Machinations for the win. He called me out for slow rolling--I call it making him commit to his triggers.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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    posted a message on Burn
    Also, I think it'd be great if the matchups were organized into very broad categories of good, even, and bad.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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    posted a message on Burn
    Great write-up, elcon. If it's not too stressing, I would love to see a "mull to 6" addition in the 18-19-20 land comparisons, as it's a pretty common thing to go down that far. How mulling to 6 affects the overall keep percentages.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 1

    posted a message on Burn
    Awesome work, elcon. I had no idea black was so common in Burn builds in the beginning. Thanks for collecting all this and putting it together for us.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
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    posted a message on Burn
    Quote from JaishivaJai »
    Quote from Creevy »
    More for fun and to better understand Burn than anything concrete, I decided to test out Gonti's Machinations in my Mardu burn list. I gotta say, I've been pleasantly surprised by it. I initially thought it would be far too slow for Burn, but it's surprisingly easy to hit two energy counters. I've found that one of two things are happening--either the opponent is hitting me, or they aren't. If they are, I'm getting energy. If they aren't, It's doing a Shrine of Burning Rage impression that costs no mana to pop, while I'm drawing cards that don't need energy, or drawing fetches that can be cracked to give me energy. In addition, I've been waiting to pop the card until I need it, to gain more energy in case I ever draw a second one. Of course, they're great in multiples, each instance of damage giving the energy needed to pop one of the cards. My guess is that Gonti's is about a turn slower than Rift Bolt on average. The one major downside is that it's an awful topdeck if you and your opponent are both staring at lethal, and yes that's a very real negative. I've played perhaps 40 or so games with it and it hasn't happened to me yet, but I can see why that would be brutal.

    The deck has some deckbuilding considerations. I play fetch heavy, both to help ensure I get my colors when I need them, and also to help trigger Gonti. I moved Blaze to the side, because sometimes I want to fetch on my turn for Gonti, and because the format has slowed down so much I don't believe it's the auto-kill spell it used to be (and also because I needed room to pack everything in here). Also, you have to accept you'll be starting every game at 14. You just will. My hope is that my eight sources of maindeck lifegain will help mitigate that.

    Here's the list I've been running. It runs 22 different versions of Lightning Bolt, to my knowledge the most of any deck in Modern.



    The deck is designed to be as efficient at goldfishing as possible, and needs about 8.3 mana to drop someone from 20.
    Wow! Now there is a very interesting card addition.

    It does look a little weird upon first inspection. However dealing 3 damage and gaining 3 life for one mana investment is pretty crazy! If the deck can function on 18 lands, that's pretty incredible too.

    Once you have the energy it can function at instant speed too, being able to activate it when you want it. I feel like this should be useful somehow in play, but can't think of any examples yet.

    Curious to know how this works out!


    Yeah, the card was definitely talked about when it first got spoiled, but it was generally decided that it wasn't very good. To be honest, I was one of the people thinking that as well.

    It's funny, even with 18 lands I find myself flooding more than I do starved. I really love the low curve of this build, and I feel like it has many of the benefits of the Mardu builds going around, without playing weaker 1 mana burn spells or too many Shard Volleys to make that happen.

    One game, I was playing against some sort of dredge/aggro deck. I think it was that new dredgevine deck floating around, or something similar to it. I had a Gonti's out with an energy counter already. He went to his turn, played a swiftspear, bolted me for three (giving me a second energy counter), then used the bolt to fuel a Become Immense. He swung at me for lethal, but I popped the Gonti's in response, surviving it. I was able to finish him off next turn.

    Another game I played a Gonti's, then fetched (one energy counter). Played a second Gonti's, then fetched (three counters). Played a THIRD Gonti's, then fetched (6 counters). Then popped them all for an 18 point lifeswing.

    Gonti's definitely has some hoops you have to jump through. But, the things is, all of the hoops you need to jump through to make it happen, tends to happen naturally as an effect of playing a three color deck in the modern format. I need to take damage twice? I fetch almost every turn, and opponents are usually trying to kill me with creatures. It stretches my manabase to three colors, making it more painful? The card gains me the life back. It's a permanent and can be destroyed? Please bring in enchantment removal against me, I'm begging you. Not to mention, Abrupt Decay is at an all-time low. It's too slow of a card? False--it's just as fast as the opponent dictates it to be, based on their level of aggression. The times when it's slow are the times where you can afford for it to be slow.

    It seems like a really uniquely designed card that has answers built in to all of its problems, not only in the card itself but the format as a whole.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
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    posted a message on Burn
    Quote from GRP17 »

    3. When taking advice try to look at the benefits of what their saying and if their overly jaded one way or another. Finding someone who is too over the top and pushes their agenda/reasoning too much may (not always) signal being too/so bias towards one direction they are blind/ignorant/refuse to even consider the possibility there is a benefit to the other view and your not allowed to breathe air if you dont follow their advice.


    It's pretty clear that this inflammatory statement is targeted solely at myself. Providing well-reasoned arguments for a position and standing by those arguments is not remotely "ignorant".


    For what it's worth, for the past few days I've been PMing with elcon concerning strategy between the three versions of Burn I consider to be competitive (Boros, Naya, Mardu). At no point did he ever force his opinion down my throat, or tell me that I was wrong for considering all three of these versions of Burn. He performed some calculations for me out of the goodness of his heart, and let me make my own decisions based on the raw numbers he provided. I think if people were to read our conversations, it would be all but impossible to say he was pushing an agenda towards me.

    I think people are reading a negative tone where there isn't one. It might be neutral or factual, but it's not disrespectful. Elcon provides statistical data to the burn forum and then offers his opinions based on his results. I don't really feel it's his responsibility to say "it's my opinion" before every post--that should be implicitly understood.

    For the record, the numbers I saw are making me reconsider Boros as the version of Burn I want to be running--and at no point did he suggest that. It's all from me.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • 1

    posted a message on Burn
    I think my real issue is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Burn is. It has a bit of an identity crisis in that people are always debating whether it's aggro, aggro-combo, or combo, and I think this heavily influences deckbuilding rationalization. I firmly believe Burn is a combo deck, so to me this would be akin to Storm throwing Bolts into the main deck in case they have creatures.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
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    posted a message on Burn
    I think a huge part of playing burn is bottlenecking the opponent's mana. The longer the game goes on, the more mana your opponent has to play with, and the more likely it is that you're just dead. I play under the assumption that a two mana spell should deal at least 4 damage (which is why Boros Charm is an auto include but Helix is more questionable). Even if Shrine can do more damage than Eidolon, which is by no means a certainty, Eidolon does what you want right when you want it. If he hits the opponent once and then gets removed, he's worth his card slot. That's the same as the other creatures in the deck, if they hit twice they're worth it.

    I think this conversation is going on in part because Eidolon isn't as good as he used to be, since we're seeing higher CMCs in Modern. And that's true, but that doesn't mean he's bad. I don't see people cutting Blazes because threats are bigger nowadays, or Skullcracks because lifegain is on the downtick. I feel like people are trying to innovate for the sake of innovation, but Burn is already so tight, and that's a good thing. I feel it's time to return to the principles of what Burn is, which is a deck trying to shrink down a game of Magic. Shrine all but fizzles against aggro decks (where Eidolon would shine outside of Affinity), and trying to go long against decks built for disruption plays right into what they want. I'll be honest, it feels like a no brainer.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
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