I also find people who do use them to be the more immature section of the player base that are desperate to always win, try to insult you for running cards they deem poor (not in a casual funny way) and most likely to throw a tantrum when things aren't going their way.
I don't think this is accurate at all,and you're making a very broad generalization.
I have to agree with cryogen on this. I am not a big combo player myself, but I don't think people are bad or wrong for playing combo, even the same tired combos. They are tired because they are effective, after all. I have my preferences, but I don't expect others to tailor their decks to my liking, so long as people who are giving fair warning when they are playing more competitive decks or when they are bringing some strategies to the table (hard stax, MLD) that a lot of the player base feels don't really fall within the social aspect of the game. I don't ever run my stax deck without asking if people are cool with me playing it, and if they aren't, I play something else.
My reason for posting this thread was to get a sense of where the people on here are in regard to combos, and I find it interesting, but not surprising, that they are all over the place.
I like playing Combos and bizarre card interactions.
Sometimes they are intricate and weird, sometimes they are 2 cards it depends on the deck but they largely influence how I play and build decks.
I tend to stop playing Combos once I find them boring or played out and I move on and find different ones. That tends to change based on the intended power of the deck and what I am playing against.
I find odd and intricate combos fascinating and often fun. Weird Rube Goldberg kinda combos are one of the coolest things about the game, especially if they depend on a lot of parts that aren't already great on their own and are hard to put together.
Today's selection in the Random Card of the Day thread is Spawning Pit. It's an okay card, and unsurprisingly, since it works so well for such things, comments noted how easily it goes infinite with Doubling Season and Ashnod's Altar and/or various other cards. As far as ways to go infinite go, this one isn't particularly scary, since it involves at least three cards, one of which is CMC 5, but it's still the sort of thing I tend to avoid building into my decks because I don't find infinite combos very interesting, especially if they are of the sort one has seen a gazillion times before if you've played any length of time (which is very much the case with the noted Spawning Pit combos). That got me wondering, though... How many people do build these things into their decks outside cEDH, which is by its nature mostly about combo-wombo wins?
Myself, I never play certain cards together. Mike/Trike, Kiki/Conscripts, things like that, I avoid. I play Kiki in several decks, but not along with cards that go infinite with Kiki. I also don't do things like Godo + Helm of the Host. Sometimes I figure out I have built in infinite combos unintentionally, and when I discover that, I usually remove one or more of the infini-combo cards from the deck. I suspect I might have one or more unintentional combos in my Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck because it is the sort of artifact-centric deck which easily lends toward them, but if so I haven't stumbled across them so far. There is one exception: I know I do have a few ways to generate infinite creatures and/or mana in my Rhys the Redeemed elf/druid/token swarm deck. It's almost impossible to make a good version of that sort of deck and not have some infinite combos in there, but I have at least eliminated any tutors that would let me assemble the combos.
Enough about me, though. I'd like to know how others feel about this sort of thing outside competitive EDH.
That was a pretty interesting article. Re: Commander reprints, it mirrors what Gavin had already said elsewhere. Here's hoping they really did hear and are heeding the reactions as strongly as appears to be the case.
Pretty good list, Cryogen. I was thinking something pretty similar.
I was also thinking about which existing planeswalkers might be good enough to play as generals without being entirely broken. I couldn't come up with many, really. I think the three WB Sorin cards would probably be okay, even with the repeatable emblem thing, but in each case I don't know that losing out on commander damage wins would be worth the advantages one gains. Chandra, Torch of Defiance might allow for an okay burn deck, I guess, especially if you used things like The Chain Veil and got multiple emblems (which as I type it sounds kinda magic Xmas land). Garruk Wildspeaker and Garruk, Primal Hunter might be good to build around, but I have a hard time viewing them as any more backbreaking than anything G can already easily do. I'm probably missing a few others but the point is, if you take out the ones who would have to be banned, I think the number of planeswalkers people would actually want to play as generals is fairly small - probably smaller than the number that would have to be banned outright (most of Cryo's mentions) - and as a result, the functional number of new generals added to the list would be fairly small. I mean, sure, someone might make an Ajani Goldmane deck, just like they can currently do a Jasmine Boreal deck, but a) how many people would actually do that? and b) why? I certainly don't see what is gained as balancing the loss of several planeswalkers which are currently playable in the format, because with the demise of BaaC, the planeswalkers banned from being a commander would almost certainly end up being banned from the format. Venser in the command zone = actively bad. Venser in the 99 is strong, but fine. Poor Venser is already dead, I'd hate to see him also banished from EDH.
Speaking of Brawl, it's pretty much dead, isn't it? Seems like having the option of planeswalkers in the command zone wasn't even popular enough in a format designed to allow for it to make that format a success, which suggests maybe Commander is fine without making that change.
How is that any more silly than some new player buying some Kaladesh or Amonkhet packs, getting a really cool Masterwork or Invocation card and finding out you can't play that card in Standard?
Formats have rules. One of the rules of this format is that unless otherwise specified, commanders have to be legendary creatures. There are exceptions, but exceptions need not be generalized. The planeswalkers who can be generals don't negate the basic rules of the format any more than the existence of things like Relentless Rats negates the general singleton nature of the format.
As already noted, you can build a strong Brago deck pretty cheap.
Personally, I think a stong Roon build would be more interesting and fun, because Brago tends to be pretty overpowering and a lot of players have seen all the Brago tricks and are pretty tired of them by now. Roon is pretty cheap to build, but being three-colored, the mana base will be a bit more clunky on a budget. As usual for three-color budget decks, I recommend basing your build around a lot of green land fetch stuff to get things going and including lots of basic lands.
Locust God is strong and offers a fair number of options for personalizing your build while still being pretty effective.
The big question re: upgrading the deck is, what do you want to do with it? Saheeli II is a very powerful and versatile commander who can be built around in a variety of different ways, since artifacts are themselves so versatile. You can just strengthen the deck in general by swapping out a few less optimal cards for some better ones, or you can fine-tune it around a specific strategy.
Either way, since you will still be focusing on artifacts, I strongly recommend including Jhoira, Weatherlight Commander. Card draw is usually a good thing.
He would very much benefit from evasion. Too bad there aren't any ways in his color to give him flight or trample or otherwise make him unblockable or difficult to block.
Oh wait...
He's fine, really. Negating counterspells against creatures is very powerful if you also include haste enablers.
My Surrak deck is not particularly complex, but it is effective and a lot of fun.
Taleran, you may not agree with some of those points, but they are points nonetheless.
Game length is something that is paid attention to across all formats. Some sorts of decks get banned in competitive play (Eggs comes to mind as an example) because they lengthen matches. Currently, standard sets are getting fewer good tutors - including land rampers - and instead, especially at lower rarities, getting the measurably worse "look at the top X cards in your library, select one Y card and put it into your hand/onto the battlefield" cards because proper tutors = shuffling = longer games. One reason (sheer power is another) we won't be seeing fetches in Standard-legal sets any time soon is because they lengthen games due to shuffling. Planeswalkers do encourage a slowed down, more defensive style of play, as anyone who has ever played against a superfriends deck can attest, so it makes sense to look at the impact having them broadly available as commanders can have on game length.
And I agree strongly that very few planeswalkers are mechanically interesting. As others have noted, a lot of their abilities draw from existing cards, and in some cases (Erayo Jace) this is not really a positive.
One of the things I've long wanted, it turns out I'm not alone. In last week's Tolarian Community College podcast, the interviewer asked Gavin Verhey about cards for old characters in Commander products and elsewhere, and Verhey stated specifically that he would like to see a new, actually good card for Baron Sengir. No guarantees were given, and Verhey notes that his "wish list" of such cards is about 3 pages long, but I am glad the Baron is at least on the radar.
As I posted ages ago, I'd like to see a new Baron something like this.
Baron Sengir
Legendary Creature - Vampire 2BBBB
Flying
Baron Sengir cannot be damaged, blocked or targeted by the abilities of Vampires other than Baron Sengir.
Whenever a creature dealt damage by Baron Sengir this turn dies, put two +1/+1 counters on Baron Sengir.
I have to agree with cryogen on this. I am not a big combo player myself, but I don't think people are bad or wrong for playing combo, even the same tired combos. They are tired because they are effective, after all. I have my preferences, but I don't expect others to tailor their decks to my liking, so long as people who are giving fair warning when they are playing more competitive decks or when they are bringing some strategies to the table (hard stax, MLD) that a lot of the player base feels don't really fall within the social aspect of the game. I don't ever run my stax deck without asking if people are cool with me playing it, and if they aren't, I play something else.
My reason for posting this thread was to get a sense of where the people on here are in regard to combos, and I find it interesting, but not surprising, that they are all over the place.
I find odd and intricate combos fascinating and often fun. Weird Rube Goldberg kinda combos are one of the coolest things about the game, especially if they depend on a lot of parts that aren't already great on their own and are hard to put together.
Mike/Trike or Kiki/Mite? That's snore city.
Myself, I never play certain cards together. Mike/Trike, Kiki/Conscripts, things like that, I avoid. I play Kiki in several decks, but not along with cards that go infinite with Kiki. I also don't do things like Godo + Helm of the Host. Sometimes I figure out I have built in infinite combos unintentionally, and when I discover that, I usually remove one or more of the infini-combo cards from the deck. I suspect I might have one or more unintentional combos in my Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck because it is the sort of artifact-centric deck which easily lends toward them, but if so I haven't stumbled across them so far. There is one exception: I know I do have a few ways to generate infinite creatures and/or mana in my Rhys the Redeemed elf/druid/token swarm deck. It's almost impossible to make a good version of that sort of deck and not have some infinite combos in there, but I have at least eliminated any tutors that would let me assemble the combos.
Enough about me, though. I'd like to know how others feel about this sort of thing outside competitive EDH.
I was also thinking about which existing planeswalkers might be good enough to play as generals without being entirely broken. I couldn't come up with many, really. I think the three WB Sorin cards would probably be okay, even with the repeatable emblem thing, but in each case I don't know that losing out on commander damage wins would be worth the advantages one gains. Chandra, Torch of Defiance might allow for an okay burn deck, I guess, especially if you used things like The Chain Veil and got multiple emblems (which as I type it sounds kinda magic Xmas land). Garruk Wildspeaker and Garruk, Primal Hunter might be good to build around, but I have a hard time viewing them as any more backbreaking than anything G can already easily do. I'm probably missing a few others but the point is, if you take out the ones who would have to be banned, I think the number of planeswalkers people would actually want to play as generals is fairly small - probably smaller than the number that would have to be banned outright (most of Cryo's mentions) - and as a result, the functional number of new generals added to the list would be fairly small. I mean, sure, someone might make an Ajani Goldmane deck, just like they can currently do a Jasmine Boreal deck, but a) how many people would actually do that? and b) why? I certainly don't see what is gained as balancing the loss of several planeswalkers which are currently playable in the format, because with the demise of BaaC, the planeswalkers banned from being a commander would almost certainly end up being banned from the format. Venser in the command zone = actively bad. Venser in the 99 is strong, but fine. Poor Venser is already dead, I'd hate to see him also banished from EDH.
Please, think about poor Venser!
Formats have rules. One of the rules of this format is that unless otherwise specified, commanders have to be legendary creatures. There are exceptions, but exceptions need not be generalized. The planeswalkers who can be generals don't negate the basic rules of the format any more than the existence of things like Relentless Rats negates the general singleton nature of the format.
Personally, I think a stong Roon build would be more interesting and fun, because Brago tends to be pretty overpowering and a lot of players have seen all the Brago tricks and are pretty tired of them by now. Roon is pretty cheap to build, but being three-colored, the mana base will be a bit more clunky on a budget. As usual for three-color budget decks, I recommend basing your build around a lot of green land fetch stuff to get things going and including lots of basic lands.
Locust God is strong and offers a fair number of options for personalizing your build while still being pretty effective.
I would also like to nominate Bramble Sovereign. Amazing card, one of the best monogreen cards in awhile.
Either way, since you will still be focusing on artifacts, I strongly recommend including Jhoira, Weatherlight Commander. Card draw is usually a good thing.
Oh wait...
He's fine, really. Negating counterspells against creatures is very powerful if you also include haste enablers.
My Surrak deck is not particularly complex, but it is effective and a lot of fun.
Game length is something that is paid attention to across all formats. Some sorts of decks get banned in competitive play (Eggs comes to mind as an example) because they lengthen matches. Currently, standard sets are getting fewer good tutors - including land rampers - and instead, especially at lower rarities, getting the measurably worse "look at the top X cards in your library, select one Y card and put it into your hand/onto the battlefield" cards because proper tutors = shuffling = longer games. One reason (sheer power is another) we won't be seeing fetches in Standard-legal sets any time soon is because they lengthen games due to shuffling. Planeswalkers do encourage a slowed down, more defensive style of play, as anyone who has ever played against a superfriends deck can attest, so it makes sense to look at the impact having them broadly available as commanders can have on game length.
And I agree strongly that very few planeswalkers are mechanically interesting. As others have noted, a lot of their abilities draw from existing cards, and in some cases (Erayo Jace) this is not really a positive.
As I posted ages ago, I'd like to see a new Baron something like this.
Baron Sengir
Legendary Creature - Vampire 2BBBB
Flying
Baron Sengir cannot be damaged, blocked or targeted by the abilities of Vampires other than Baron Sengir.
Whenever a creature dealt damage by Baron Sengir this turn dies, put two +1/+1 counters on Baron Sengir.
B: Regenerate Baron Sengir or target Vampire.
5/5