MTG Salvation

I haven't been able to really combo with Vendilion Clique at all. The fact that we have no real creature tutor generally means that I'm only using the Clique once, maybe a couple more times if I have Riptide out. As a card in itself it's not bad. Having the option for hand hate out of color is still something I like.

What I've grown less fond of in the deck is Expedition Map. It's not exactly that it's a bad card, per say, but the two mana investment is sorta...eh, at best, and I've found that even tutoring for Nykthos is only decent at best in my current meta. It's less that it's a bad card, and more that I feel I can do better in that slot. Currently I'm using Pongify in that spot, so I have one more hard removal out.

As for Scepter, at least in my goldfish testing, I actually like it more with something like Impulse, because you're right, people will try to play around counters if they know one is on the board. Granted, it is very possible to counterwar with the Scepter and a counter in hand, but as I see it, losing Impulse, in itself, isn't a significant risk, but having it constantly recurring seems really powerful for digging up other answers. Not that sticking a Counterspell on it doesn't appeal to me, but I think that even using the scepter once or twice has value. I will provide results after playing some actual games, though.

I'm also probably going to cut Mind over Matter. For Sphinx of Last Word if nothing else. Mind over matter is a nice win con, but it's really soft on its own, and it can't be tutored, nor can the creatures it combos with. I can sorta see what you mean by putting it in your deck, then cutting it, rinse, repeat.

Force of Will is eventually on the to do list when I'm not poor as hell, although at that point, I may just run all three. Why settle for two free counters when you can have three?

Counterbalance really put up its weight in gold in my last session, where even blind it stopped three threats. It's much better with top, but having a recurring counter effect for free is simply amazing.

Speaking of recurring counters, I thought of a potential control tech that can also double up as a win con: Isochron Scepter. With infinite colorless mana using Aphetto Alchemist, we have a complete lock on everyone's stack. This may, at least for me, be good enough to reconsider Tidewater Minion, if the Isochron experiment bears fruit. Even outside of combo potential, it allows us to constantly recur powerful effects like Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm,Counterspell, Pongify and Boomerang. Scepter can also easily be tutored with Fabricate, Tezerret, and Muddle the mixture quite nicely.

I understand that people being scared of her or not trusting me is largely why she dies, but what i really need is a reliable way to stop that. Not a lot has really worked so far in that respect. I generally have a bullseye on my head when I play.

I'm not sure how to feel about Zedruu. I've run plenty of deck variants of it and tried all manners of ways of keeping my commander on the board through counterspells, Lightning Greave effects, or other such effects. It may just be that I'm playing Zedruu incorrectly, but it feels that in most games I play, she dies enough times that her casting cost is too high to play, then do anything of importance before it's too late. Or worse, even if her donate engine does take off, I'm at a point where I'll give them Pyromancer's Swath, or Illusions of Grandeur, and the latter doesn't really do enough, and the former, while very effective at what it does, doesn't actually win out the game.

Am I doing something wrong? In my experience, playing Zedruu with donations really feels more like a clunky, commander dependent, less reliable version of traditional control, with an upside that risks you decking if you don't win fast enough.

This is one of my many attempted, unsuccessful versions of the deck. I've definitely won less than 10% of my games with this commander, and I'm not sure if it's a flawed premise of a commander, or just bad execution, as some people seem to swear by her.

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

Quote from Soulbanana »

The moxen won't come off the banlist anytime soon. They're pretty much free ramp spells that produce colored mana, not to mention the price tag on it.
I don't think that Sol Ring should be banned simply because it's played in almost every optimized commander deck. Command tower is played in almost every commander deck and no one's complaining about it. Sol Ring is simply a good card in commander, and so is command tower. Should both be banned because both are good cards in Commander and because they are staples in almost every commander deck? I don't think so.

I hope you aren't serious. There is a world of difference between Sol Ring and Command Tower. Tower's effect is shared by around 35 different cards. Ring's effect (early game extreme gas) is shared by 2 legal and 6 non-legal cards.

But on the flipside, Sol Ring can benefit most if not all decks. Command Tower is only really useful in a multicolor deck, and provides no advantage to mono color.

I don't want Sol Ring to be banned, but I can understand why some people would. The fact that sol ring has been reprinted, and that it taps for colorless, means literally anyone can reasonably use one for their EDH deck. On the flipside, someone who gets a turn one sol ring in their opening hand, and has proper followup in their hand, can have an almost insurmountable early game advantage. This gets worse if someone somehow opens with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. In a free for all, at least, most people are probably going to try and gun down the guy with overwhelming resources, however. Sol Ring offers a strong, unpredictable advantage that anyone can reasonably start with, which is something Commander format seems to want to do. In this sense, it's fine to have, and an opponent starting with Sol Ring doesn't spell your doom, but it doesn't make staring down it any less pleasant.

I would absolutely include Snapcaster Mage if I could. It's utility, it can set people off guard, it's a last minute blocker if needed, and can be triggered off Patron Wizard and Azami, and you can abuse the hell out of it with Deadeye Navigator and Riptide Laboratory. That's insane.

Foil is a card I love to see in the mid or late game. Early game, the card disadvantage can be prohibitive outside of very niche situations. As a rule, I like to keep it in reserve for the situations where winning the counter war can either decide the game, or give me a significant advantage (such as protecting an early cast of Consecrated Sphinx/Arcanis the Omnipotent). That said, it's one of the last cards I can take out, because a free counterspell is so powerful and can mess up anyone's plans.

My thoughts with JMS is honestly not just to spam Brainstorm every turn--although it's very well tempting--but also make use of his unsummon so I can keep him from getting killed, and maybe occasionally using the +2. Being able to take a Commander out of the picture seems very strong, especially with the amount of counterspells being used.

If your deck is that graveyard heavy, then Sword of Body and Mind is probably worth excluding. On the other hand, if they /are/ that graveyard heavy, it may be worth it to consider things like Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, or Grafdigger's Cage. Of course right now we're trying to fit in Gauntlet and the like, but those are things that might be worth bearing on. Anyway, one thing at a time here, so let's see...

Sword of the Animist seems underwhelming to me. I can see it being good for ramp if you tutor it out early and start beating face with it, but on the other hand, there's very few situations where I wouldn't rather tutor Fire and Ice purely for the draw, pinging weak creatures, or getting your opponent lower on life total. Or tutoring Feast in Famine, especially given your Winter Orb effects.

What are your thoughts on Mirran Crusader? This guy's an absolute nightmare to deal with if he rolls Sword of War and Peace. Is artifact hate or removal of permanents common in your meta?

I don't like replacing Teferi at all. In my opinion, one of the most important things in EDH is redundancy. The guy that plays Simic is always gunning for me, so--at least for me--being able to shut down the control matchup on two fronts is an advantage I absolutely want to be able to do. Being able to force removal and other effects at sorcery speed allows me to use Aphetto Alchemist or Palinchron with impunity as well.

If I had money I would play with using Jace, The Mind Sculptor in this deck. It has recurring dig effects, and the ability to sorcery speed brainstorm constantly can help control what's on the deck for counterbalance. Combined with Sensei's Divining Top, and we have a pretty good amount of cards we can manipulate to the top. I may playtest in on Cockatrice to see if it at least works.

As for Mind Over Matter...I rarely draw it. I've gotten it three times, in fact. I've had better luck getting Azami or Arcanis out. If you can untap with Arcanis or play Azami at any point after it's out, you more or less win. It might be a card I'm more likely to cut for Sphinx, though, given both have high CMCs. Mind over Matter is something that will give you a very strong chance of winning if you combo with it. Sphinx is something that will give you a strong chance of winning the control matchup. I think the application sorta boils down to which role you want to fill.

Is Mind Over Matter good? Absolutely. However, it's weak in a vacuum, and both combo pieces are elements we cannot directly tutor. I may liken it, in this sense, to a less vulnerable Pili-Pala in terms of its applications.

It's by no means a powerhouse, but Solemn Simulacrum can help color fix your cards like Child of Alara, and is something you're totally okay with seeing die because it replaces itself with another card afterward. Wurmcoil Engine replaces itself with two tokens when it dies, so you still have a board presence when everyone else has nothing.

Speaking of Artifacts, Academy Ruins lets you get any artifact back from the graveyard--including the two aforementioned cards for repeated value.

Zedruu the Greathearted can be amusing, especially if you run things like Pyromancer's Swath, Embargo, and Illusions of Grandeur. You can opt to give your opponents something nice, or give them something awful. Or both, depending on your mood.

Also, if you do go with Braids, Conjurer Adept, do consider Paradox Haze. No one says you can't double dip, right?

Braids, Conjurer Adept also can be very cheap to build. Think about Grozoth when putting the deck together and you'll be fine.

Hell you can do better than that. Ulamog's Crusher, Hand of Emrakul, and Artisan of Kozilek are all really powerful budget beats.

I was thinking of a card disadvantage version of Counterbalance myself. This thing does have one big advantage over Disrupting Shoal, though: his ability cannot be countered by anything besides Trickbind effects. I'm sure a lot of people, including myself, will say Glen Elendra Archmage or Patron Wizard are better, and they are, but having this ability in a budget deck is still really powerful; more powerful if your entire local meta is budget kitchen table decks.

Elesh Norn has a wonderful lord effect. She's definitely a fierce presence on the board that needs an answer. If you're looking to use her for a pseudo-board wipe, however, that may have limited effectiveness depending on what you're doing.

Also, if you're running Caged Sun and Extraplanar Lens, why not go all the way and toss in Gauntlet of Power, too? It /is/ symmetrical, but it's redundancy and costs one less.

And...I forgot to ask this before. Why no Sword of Body and Mind? Are the protection/abilities, just not relevant?

I ended up cutting Bribery in the end. One person I play runs prophet of Crufix, but if he doesn't use that deck, Bribery becomes a lot weaker. And again...sorcery speed for five. There are other cards I would much rather play. I won't deny it's strong, but the focus on permission has served me better. I've been finding that, as a general rule, I don't like sorceries in this deck at all--exactly why I never ran cards like Æther Gale. In any event, I'll let you know my results for Clique when I get the chance to test it.

Aetherize and Aetherspouts have been handy purely for the redundancy in some matchups. I typically only need to pop such mass creature removal once or twice, but having that effect on four cards pretty much means I'll get one provided I'm not drawing utterly dead. Aetherize in particular has been a lifesaver due to the four mana CMC as opposed to 5+.

Sphinx of the Final Word looks pretty solid, and makes it very hard to lose the counter war--almost impossible due the hexproof. That's something I'm not sure what to cut for, especially given it's high CMC. I'd almost say I'd cut sword for it, but that might be a good sword target in itself for certain matchups due to the evasion and hexproof. It's something I certainly need to figure out, because you're right. That card looks nuts.

The lack of fetchlands for Counterbalance can be unfortunate, especially if my top three cards are completely useless. I haven't drawn it often for one reason or another, but I've found when I do get it, it can be a very strong force and makes the full use out of Sensei's Divining Top. In my local meta, having free counter effects is always very helpful due to how often I've become the "archenemy", and it's imperative that I have a constant answer. Combine that with the simple fact that I can also use things like Brainstorm, or even Azami to dig in an extra card, and it's been a lifesaver.

Edit: It occurred to me. I'm not sure if this would ever actually come up in a game, but if necessary, wouldn't the use of Vendilion Clique also sculpt our own hand, if we're differ for some manner of combo piece? It may not be practical, but the option may be useful if you absolutely need an answer that turn.

Yeah Banishing Light is....okay. If you're running a deck that prefers enchantment based removal for one reason or another, you may have Banishing light as a third O Ring. On the other hand, you may prefer Prison Term, which may be better for shutting down commanders, especially if you're staring down the wrong side of Derevi, or something. It's alright. It gets the job done, but white has either more versatile removal, or less expensive removal, or instant speed removal. The lighter color weight might be better for multicolor decks that don't really want to target its own board, but if that multicolor deck runs blue as well, you have cards like Detention Sphere.