Shriekmaw is a great card. It's been in every version of my cubes and I don't foresee myself creating a cube where this doesn't have a home. It's splashable, cheap removal that doubles as a threat. Has synergy with the yard since it self bins, much like Boneshredder does. In lower powered lists, ETB value cards like this one can cause balance problems in volume. So there are builds where this won't be optimal.
I think my favorite kill spell is Vindicate since it has no target restrictions. I run bouncelands too, and it's a wicked tempo play when used against those. Even without a bounceland, it's possible to use it for mana denial. Combos nicely with black discard in this capacity since you can see what they have in hand before you commit to that strategy.
In my lower powered rare list (midrange focused), flicker/blink actually became overpoweringly good due to the high volume of ETB effects. It was less oppressive at higher power levels from my experience and I can see it being merely a footnote in a fully powered environment. The more midrange your list drifts, the more broken blink is as a fully supported archetype.
Well off the beaten path... I'm experimenting with an Astral Slide package in my current semi-nostalgic combo list. This really only works in conjunction with LFTL/Eternal Witness and cycling lands/Decree of Justice. So it's narrow and a bit clunky. I don't know if it sticks around for long, but I like the challenge of trying to draft it.
On a more conventional front, I recommend most of the cards Omirr85 listed. Especially happy to see Momentary Blink still getting some love. That is a card most cube managers abandoned a long time ago since it's technically a gold card (and there's limited space for those in cube), but it has a ton of play to it. Another card to consider if you want to go all in on the archetype is Ghostly Flicker. There's also Deadeye Navigator, which is slow to get going but utterly stupid once you're there. But the most powerful blink/flicker card by a country mile is Restoration Angel, not really because it blinks but because it's so far above the cure.
I think you might be overly focused on one mana 2 power 1 drops with no evasion. Yeah, that deck sucks against ophiomancer or really anything with decent walls. Our disagreements tend to revolve around how much more your meta focuses on pure 2 power 1 drop aggro than mine. If the vast majority of your aggro decks hinge on requiring empty boards, then I can see ophiomancer being a real problem. Again though, first trike, flying, shadow, menace, whatever hero of oxid ridge's ability is. Creature with any sort of evasion (trample excluded) are not going to be slowed down by a 1/1 token.
We can agree to disagree. That's usually where this goes.
I'm not even sure we disagree. We both agree Ophiomancer is an excellent card. I feel like we can just leave it at that.
Deathrite Shaman probably unless you are running double fetch lands (or some other mechanic that gets a lot of lands in the yard). It's much better in those configurations I found. Still good even with single fetch lands, and value recently went up with bicycles (if you run them).
Abrupt Decay is better the faster and lower your average cmc is. Some cubes are pushing that direction more and more and I would expect this card to just gain value as that trend continues.
I rate Elves of Deep Shadow higher since I still value pretty highly the option of T1 G, Elf; T2 BB1 Hippie (or similar BB card) play. The Dark art is also pretty... uh... classic?
I think the order for me is
1. Birds of Paradise (still the ultimate fixer and occasional sword wielder of doom)
2. Noble Hierarch (exalted is just great and option to tap for U makes this very good in Simic Opposition).
3. Joraga Treespeaker. Tapping for GG makes this thing really powerful. It's worth the risk of a blowout on the level up.
It's pretty close between all three though and I can see various ordering depending on what your meta looks like and how different advantages are valued by your players. Below these three, it's fairly interchangeable. Though I think I'd run Elves of Deep Shadow and Llanowar Elves over pretty much anything else. Llanowar mostly due to nostalgia. Arbor Elf is probably better but I personally wouldn't run it over the OG mana elf.
Worth noting... Deathrite Shaman when I ran double fetch lands actually leapfrogs all the other mana dorks for me except maybe birds. Card is stupid powerful with tons of fetch lands in the cube.
How many aggro decks are really having this problem though? I guess that's the heart of it right there. If your aggro deck is rolled by a 1/1 token maker that dies to shock, isn't it folding to basically everything?
White has plenty of ways around ophiomancer's snake. First strike and evasion being the prime two. Harm's Way is filthy against it. Mother of Runes. List goes on. Red has burn which is what at least a third of your playables in any reasonable RDW list? Neither of these colors is just shut down by Ophiomancer. They might not want to see it but it's not turning the tables on that matchup.
Green has jack for an answer but green aggro is still not tier 1 and that just can't be the bar we use here. Straight black aggro I guess has a problem if Ophio resolves, but this also doesn't strike me as a terribly good archetype in a high powered cube. At least if it's not coupled with a ton of disruption (targeted discard, mana denial, etc). Without that part of the game plan (disruption) how is black aggro winning against anything?
Ophiomancer is a grey ogre that never has more than one snake buddy. I refuse to believe this card is terrorizing the average high powered aggro deck in a typical cube. It's a much bigger problem for midrange strategies that rely on ground dudes or as used in some sort of exploitative shell with sacrifice effects (Pox, skullclamp, etc). Aggro should be able to beat these decks or at least have a favorable matchup.
I think the only thing we were arguing was whether flesh carver or ophiomancer was better. And I've already conceded I could be wrong about the order. It's splitting hairs IMO anyway. As I stated earlier, both cards were too powerful for my lower powered rare list (midrange focused), so I'm certainly not arguing Ophiomancer is weak sauce. It's anything but. And it's better than every card I listed in my last post (well, probably not brimaz and maybe the goblin). I was only pointing out that the straight 2 for 1 nature of ophiomancer is not why it's good. That's pedestrian value. If all you get is one snake and ophiomancer dies immediately, it's not actually a very strong T3 play compared to other things generally happening with 3 mana. If Ophiomancer lives and you can abuse the infinite tokens, it's an absurd card.
The snake does trade up in value but that only really hurts Gx midrange. Most every other deck is running something with evasion or has removal to deal with the snake token. And it's a non-threat on offense. Attack with ophiomancer and it dies to 1 drops. Attack with the snake, and it sails through, pings for one and then you alpha strike. The infinite snake thing has to be something you create yourself (via some sort of sacrifice) because outside an overrun or race scenario your opponent attacking into that snake with ophiomancer still alive is dumb.
Tons of cards in cube offer a 2 for 1. It's sort of par for the course with a 3 drop. It used to be above the curve. It really isn't anymore. Look at all the 3 drops in your cube. How many don't give a 2 for 1 (not many an those that don't are stat machines)? Sea Gate Oracle is at least a 2 for 1. You get a card right away and it might even kill something and live. Goblin Rabblemaster is more than a 2 for 1 on an empty board. So is Brimaz. Phyrexian Rager is a 2 for 1 and it's not even good enough for cube anymore.
If you are playing against any reasonably built aggro deck and your 3 drop play isn't a 2 for 1, you've probably already lost the game.
You kill Ophiomancer with pretty much any removal spell you have - it dies to a stiff breeze after all - then you trade one 2/1 for 1 snake. Nothing infinite about that. If you can't kill ophiomancer, obviously you don't just throw creatures away.
I think Ophiomancer is better in every shell than Flesh Carver other than straight aggro. Flesh Carver is definitely the better beater, but Ophiomancer plays defense much better and has a lot more synergies via snake token generation every turn (Smokestack / Skullclamp / Flesh Carver / etc).
That being said, I think they're without a doubt the 2 best black 3-cmc creatures by far and wouldn't cut them for any reason.
I could be wrong. Both carver and ophiomancer were too good for my midrange focused list. So they are definitely a cut above the rest. My feeling is Ophiomancer is only more oppressive to midrange decks that rely on big beaters. I'm surprised higher powered lists are finding it as good though since those types of decks are not great in these sorts of cubes. Aggro doesn't want to face either ophiomancer or flesh carver. Both are almost certain 2 for 1's. Ophiomancer feels easier to absorb though since it dies to more things and trading a small 2/1 with the snake is not that huge of a loss. It's also just a 1 for 1 with some dividable burn. Outside exile effects though, carver's 2 for 1 is harder to mitigate and if it's not killed right away you generally have to deal with a very big threat as +2/+2 is a pretty unreasonably good boost for the sacrifice cost. Being instant speed, it suddenly blanks a lot of removal too. I have generally found carver easier to exploit as well since having creatures is basically what most decks are doing. Ophiomancer is really great too but in a more narrow number of archetypes. My 2 cents.
Oh that's funny. I thought the question was just typo'd. haha. Yeah. I have dice in a plastic bag. My group does RPG's so we have mountains of dice.
FWIW, I was looking at "edict" as a non-targetable form of removal (though I guess wraths fall into that category as well). Mainly because that's the mechanical benefit those cards tend to provide in cube. Indestructible/Regen makes up such a small population, that the sacrifice vs destroy aspect seems pretty minor. For the purposes of the role of "edict" effects in cube, I see Do or Die as in that family. I'm fine with not calling it an edict though if semantics is a problem. Is there a better term besides "make opponent kill one or more creatures" (which feels really tedious to write every time).
I put a copy of that card in my cart so next order I'll get one. It's cool and I can see it finding a home. Black removal is in an interesting place for me since it's less efficient than white removal and less versatile than burn. Edict-like effects though don't target and that's a unique niche.
That's fair. It's also one sided which makes it a bit better than Pox in theory. The more we talk about Do or Die, the more inclined I am to try it. It's definitely unique. I don't think it replaces diabolic edict/cruel edict/innocent blood, but could supplement them and other removal options in black. To OP, nice find.
Well, Barter in Blood kills two. Are there really no other edicts that kill more than one creature (that could be right I don't know)? Do or Die is interesting though because you make piles. So you aren't stuck with the worst creature(s) like with other edicts. I don't want to call this a punisher mechanic, but it's in that flavor. Which I think makes it hard to evaluate without actual play testing.
Your opponent chooses the pile, so it's definitely an edict. I get that it's more interesting with more creatures on the board, but you always get the worst pile. So if your opponent has Inkwell and some other dudes, the best you can probably get is the pile of other dudes. Though it can be interesting when the other dudes are also good and or numerous since this gets to be a 2:1 or better. This does get around two really good creatures and chump tokens nicely since you can put one really good creature in each pile guaranteeing you at least one of them dying. Where this card will suck is opponent has one dude you can't touch. Do or Die might as well be an anti-edict.
Card for sure has some interesting lines of play though, especially in slower metas where board clogging happens more frequently. That's why I called it a half wrath. I don't see the specific benefit in Pox though. What were your thoughts on that?
Every time I think I've gone through Gatherer and seen every possible Magic card, someone posts one I've never seen. Do or Die is certainly priced right. And edict effects are useful. Problem I see is that edicts get weaker once your opponent has multiple creatures, which is the only time this card works. That said, it offers interesting choices once a board gets congested. I think there is a lot of play to it as a half wrath. I love me some old bordered cards too so bonus points for that. I hope it works out.
Worst way to die is probably through some sort of torture. Drawn and quartered? If we are talking non-barbaric deaths, I think it's likely drowning. Maybe burning alive but barring you being literally set on fire, you probably asphyxiate before you actually burn in most scenarios. When I die, my cube goes to a friend most likely assuming I still even have it. Can't take any material things with you so don't see the point in burying/cremating a perfectly good box of Magic cards.
I think my favorite kill spell is Vindicate since it has no target restrictions. I run bouncelands too, and it's a wicked tempo play when used against those. Even without a bounceland, it's possible to use it for mana denial. Combos nicely with black discard in this capacity since you can see what they have in hand before you commit to that strategy.
Well off the beaten path... I'm experimenting with an Astral Slide package in my current semi-nostalgic combo list. This really only works in conjunction with LFTL/Eternal Witness and cycling lands/Decree of Justice. So it's narrow and a bit clunky. I don't know if it sticks around for long, but I like the challenge of trying to draft it.
On a more conventional front, I recommend most of the cards Omirr85 listed. Especially happy to see Momentary Blink still getting some love. That is a card most cube managers abandoned a long time ago since it's technically a gold card (and there's limited space for those in cube), but it has a ton of play to it. Another card to consider if you want to go all in on the archetype is Ghostly Flicker. There's also Deadeye Navigator, which is slow to get going but utterly stupid once you're there. But the most powerful blink/flicker card by a country mile is Restoration Angel, not really because it blinks but because it's so far above the cure.
We can agree to disagree. That's usually where this goes.
Deathrite Shaman probably unless you are running double fetch lands (or some other mechanic that gets a lot of lands in the yard). It's much better in those configurations I found. Still good even with single fetch lands, and value recently went up with bicycles (if you run them).
Abrupt Decay is better the faster and lower your average cmc is. Some cubes are pushing that direction more and more and I would expect this card to just gain value as that trend continues.
I think the order for me is
1. Birds of Paradise (still the ultimate fixer and occasional sword wielder of doom)
2. Noble Hierarch (exalted is just great and option to tap for U makes this very good in Simic Opposition).
3. Joraga Treespeaker. Tapping for GG makes this thing really powerful. It's worth the risk of a blowout on the level up.
It's pretty close between all three though and I can see various ordering depending on what your meta looks like and how different advantages are valued by your players. Below these three, it's fairly interchangeable. Though I think I'd run Elves of Deep Shadow and Llanowar Elves over pretty much anything else. Llanowar mostly due to nostalgia. Arbor Elf is probably better but I personally wouldn't run it over the OG mana elf.
Worth noting... Deathrite Shaman when I ran double fetch lands actually leapfrogs all the other mana dorks for me except maybe birds. Card is stupid powerful with tons of fetch lands in the cube.
White has plenty of ways around ophiomancer's snake. First strike and evasion being the prime two. Harm's Way is filthy against it. Mother of Runes. List goes on. Red has burn which is what at least a third of your playables in any reasonable RDW list? Neither of these colors is just shut down by Ophiomancer. They might not want to see it but it's not turning the tables on that matchup.
Green has jack for an answer but green aggro is still not tier 1 and that just can't be the bar we use here. Straight black aggro I guess has a problem if Ophio resolves, but this also doesn't strike me as a terribly good archetype in a high powered cube. At least if it's not coupled with a ton of disruption (targeted discard, mana denial, etc). Without that part of the game plan (disruption) how is black aggro winning against anything?
Ophiomancer is a grey ogre that never has more than one snake buddy. I refuse to believe this card is terrorizing the average high powered aggro deck in a typical cube. It's a much bigger problem for midrange strategies that rely on ground dudes or as used in some sort of exploitative shell with sacrifice effects (Pox, skullclamp, etc). Aggro should be able to beat these decks or at least have a favorable matchup.
The snake does trade up in value but that only really hurts Gx midrange. Most every other deck is running something with evasion or has removal to deal with the snake token. And it's a non-threat on offense. Attack with ophiomancer and it dies to 1 drops. Attack with the snake, and it sails through, pings for one and then you alpha strike. The infinite snake thing has to be something you create yourself (via some sort of sacrifice) because outside an overrun or race scenario your opponent attacking into that snake with ophiomancer still alive is dumb.
If you are playing against any reasonably built aggro deck and your 3 drop play isn't a 2 for 1, you've probably already lost the game.
I could be wrong. Both carver and ophiomancer were too good for my midrange focused list. So they are definitely a cut above the rest. My feeling is Ophiomancer is only more oppressive to midrange decks that rely on big beaters. I'm surprised higher powered lists are finding it as good though since those types of decks are not great in these sorts of cubes. Aggro doesn't want to face either ophiomancer or flesh carver. Both are almost certain 2 for 1's. Ophiomancer feels easier to absorb though since it dies to more things and trading a small 2/1 with the snake is not that huge of a loss. It's also just a 1 for 1 with some dividable burn. Outside exile effects though, carver's 2 for 1 is harder to mitigate and if it's not killed right away you generally have to deal with a very big threat as +2/+2 is a pretty unreasonably good boost for the sacrifice cost. Being instant speed, it suddenly blanks a lot of removal too. I have generally found carver easier to exploit as well since having creatures is basically what most decks are doing. Ophiomancer is really great too but in a more narrow number of archetypes. My 2 cents.
FWIW, I was looking at "edict" as a non-targetable form of removal (though I guess wraths fall into that category as well). Mainly because that's the mechanical benefit those cards tend to provide in cube. Indestructible/Regen makes up such a small population, that the sacrifice vs destroy aspect seems pretty minor. For the purposes of the role of "edict" effects in cube, I see Do or Die as in that family. I'm fine with not calling it an edict though if semantics is a problem. Is there a better term besides "make opponent kill one or more creatures" (which feels really tedious to write every time).
I put a copy of that card in my cart so next order I'll get one. It's cool and I can see it finding a home. Black removal is in an interesting place for me since it's less efficient than white removal and less versatile than burn. Edict-like effects though don't target and that's a unique niche.
Card for sure has some interesting lines of play though, especially in slower metas where board clogging happens more frequently. That's why I called it a half wrath. I don't see the specific benefit in Pox though. What were your thoughts on that?
Worst way to die is probably through some sort of torture. Drawn and quartered? If we are talking non-barbaric deaths, I think it's likely drowning. Maybe burning alive but barring you being literally set on fire, you probably asphyxiate before you actually burn in most scenarios. When I die, my cube goes to a friend most likely assuming I still even have it. Can't take any material things with you so don't see the point in burying/cremating a perfectly good box of Magic cards.