I am not comparing the 2 cards, I am pointing out cascade abuses suspend cards. It doesnt matter if its living end, AV, or hypergenesis.
Okay. I think we all agree that Cascade abuses suspend cards in general.
But it does matter when we are talking about specific combinations of cascade and suspend cards. For example, I really don't see why anyone would play violent outburst to cascade into Ancestral Visions in Modern if the latter were unbanned. Maybe in a RUG midrange or a control deck. But at that point, why not just run can trips and other sources of Card Advantage that are less random than hoping to cascade into a 'free' Ancestral Recall. There's no playable library manipulation in Modern like Brainstorm in legacy that would allow you to setup a cascade into Ancestral Visions. The closest thing we have to that is Serum Visions, but with Serum Visions the following conditions have to be met: 1. AV can't be in your hand 2. You can't draw into it with Serum Visions. 3. It has to be one of the Top 2 cards after you've drawn your card with Serum Visions. With brainstorm in Legacy, even if AV is in your hand, you can just put it on top for you to cascade into it, usually with Shardless Agent or BBE.
Now, let's say hypothetically speaking pros have come up with a legit reason to use a cascade spell to play AV for free. Okay, that's still not going bring them dramatically closer to ending the game like Living End usually does. It's only a means for them to either get to a win condition, catch up if they're behind, or get further ahead if they're already winning so that can close out the game sooner.
I assume you own a Legacy Jund deck. To go from Jund to Stoneblade or Storm deck, you'll invest a lot from budget perspective. Given you're a working student, doesn't sound like a smart approach.
From budget point of view, from Jund to Shardless BUG sound like the best approach. However, Jund and BUG aren't really alike. How could they be alike, when a deck runs blue and another deck runs red instead of blue?
Jund is using punishing fire to provide a sense of controlling element, when BUG has a lot to do with library manipulation for card advantage, while both decks stress a lot on board position.
Interestingly, if you have a Shardless BUG, it would be easier to transition into Stoneforge, because you would have Jaces.
Yes, I do own a mostly complete Legacy Jund deck. It's missing the third Badlands to make it 100% legit but I have everything else. Been getting by using a Blood Crypt in place of the third Badlands since I've only played at store-level tournaments so far.
For me Shardless BUG and Jund are only similar by being midrange decks, with the latter having better capability of being aggressive and the former better at being more controlling. I know that switching from Jund to Shardless BUG would involve some learning new things like how to use Brainstorm properly.
Actually, I was thinking about getting into Shardless BUG because of the the fact that it's cheaper for me to get into than Esper Stoneblade atm. I already have a lot of the important green and black cards from Jund as well as a good amount of the mana base. I even have a playset of Misty Rainforest. Either that or I was going to just wait till I have enough for Stoneblade and just be content with Jund until then, though the increase in price of Polluted Deltas and Underground Seas makes me want get into Shardless BUG so that I can at least get those as soon as possible before they increase any further. I'm really going to have to think on it.
shouldn't wizzy just print better black anti combo hate?
or white... or red?
that would be much more useful for all format instead that silly bans in one format and running blue in the other...
Actually, my friend and I were discussing how to keep combo in check in Modern without banning the **** out of it yesterday. He said we don't need to have blue be in that role. We could put black in that role instead. He was thinking a slightly less powerful version of Hymn to Tourach. Basically Hymn without the random clause since what makes Hymn a bit too powerful for Modern is its ability to hit lands in the opponent's hand. Just wanted to mention it since in response to what Negator87 said.
As for comparing Modern to Legacy, I want to say the way things are right now, I definitely prefer Legacy to Modern. But that does not mean I think Modern is a piece-of-**** format. Yes I'm despondent about the state of affairs in modern currently, but I know I'm not going completely abandon it. I actually plan on having playsets of each shocks by the end of the summer and on at least drafting Modern Masters when I can if I don't buy a box just to have enough staples for when I feel like playing Modern.
I also don't play modern right now because the store that brings in the most for modern doesn't have a competitive enough scene for my taste. I don't enjoy winning the majority of the time if there's no challenge in it. However, I noticed when I searched for stores near where I live, a lot of them are going to have Modern as an FNM format come June. I'm hoping that Modern Masters will be successful so that I have another option for constructed on Friday nights besides Standard.
For my fellow Legacy players, give modern more time to grow and maybe even pick up the shocks when you can since now is a good time to do so.
1. budget concern
Do you have a day time job? I know this might come off as irrelevant, but it actually does matter. Competitive Legacy cards are meant for working people. Even if you do work, you might want to limit yourself to only certain amount of money per month. Do not try to purchase everything in the same month, moderation is the key toward everything, not just Magic.
2. Shardless BUG or Esper Stoneblade
Again, this has as much to do with play style as budget. To build Stoneblade, the expensive cards are Underground Sea. To build Shardless, I presume you already have either/or Darck Confidant, Liliana, and Goyf from your Jund collection. To build either, you need the expensive Jace. Keep in mind, I say play style, I did not say tournament success.
Winning is important, but just because you are invested, that does not guarantee victory. However, since you are invested, you should be liking the play-style, being in the role of Shardless BUG, regardless your results.
1. I'm a college student currently supported by my parents mostly. I get a weekly allowance from them that allows me to save money up over time when I don't spend it on my leisurely activites. I plan on slowly acquiring the pieces to build more legacy decks, but I appreciate the advice.
2. Playstyle-wise, Shardless BUG might be a better fit since I've played Jund for so long, but I've always wanted to play Esper Blade since I think the deck is just uber-cool and I've always wanted to play a powerful control deck. I'll probably even try TES or ANT at some point since I think Storm Combo decks are just beautiful. Not sure if I've found my primary playstyle yet. Think I'm still experimenting since it's only been about year since I go back into Magic and became so much more competitive.
How much would it cost to convert a modern jund deck to legacy? If its significantly less than the price of a new modern deck then I can see the jump.
Same with eggs if it can compete.
It really depends on what you want the deck for. If you just want it for store level tournaments then you could get away with not having onslaught fetches. The only downside is that it makes you a little softer to Blood Moon and/or Price of Progress since you may not always be able to fetch all the basics you need as consistently. Assuming you have everything from the Modern Jund deck, I'd prioritize it in the following way: 1 Get Duals and Groves first (at least 2 Bayou and 2 Badlands, at least 3 Groves probably), 2. Wastelands second (At least 3; in the mean time you can just include more basics in place of the wasteland slots or something like that). 3. Onslaught fetches last. Besides the lands, you won't have to spend much to port your modern deck over to Legacy. Mabye $10 on a Sylvan Library and $4 on a playset of Hymns. Stuff like that.
So I've been making my way into Legacy for a couple months now. I built Punishing Jund since it was just a matter of getting the mana base to port my Modern Jund deck to Legacy. I'm now working on building either Shardless BUG or Esper Stoneblade (undecided, though leaning towards Esper Stoneblade atm). I am hoping to become a competitive Legacy player and go to big tournaments when I can. I guess I am worried about spreading myself too thin in terms of decks or archetypes to play. Is it better to only be good with one or two decks, or is there no danger in having more than two decks in your arsenal? Should I stick to Midrange and Control if they play to my strengths the most or should I try combo out sometime? My budget will be the biggest limiting factor since I don't expect to get LEDs anytime soon. NOTE: I'm not only getting into Legacy to be competitive. I've also fallen in love with the format, but I want to know if, in more experienced players' opinions, is there a certain point of spreading yourself too thin if you're trying to be competitive within Legacy.
How's Shardless BUG's MU against combo? I've heard it's not a combo killer like RUG or Esper Stoneblade, but it's significantly better than Jund at fighting combo. I ask because I'm thinking about switching over to it from Jund and because my meta is mostly combo.
I only have Jund ready to go because I only got into Legacy a month ago. I'm working on building either Shardless BUG or Esper Stoneblade. Leaning towards Shardless BUG since it's cheaper for me atm than Esper Stoneblade. However, if I build Shardless BUG first, Esper Stoneblade will be the next one for me to build.
For either build I have seen mixed results with Wasteland / Loam package and no wastelands at all. Which do you guys think is better?
With regards to Jund I don't think it's a good idea to run no wastelands period. You don't often play the mana denial game with wastelands, but they are good for killing opposing groves and any other lands giving your opponent utility. However, there are situations you will want to play the mana denial game, like keeping the stoneblade player off jace mana. I'd run at least three, but I can see running two even for budget reasons. I'd prioritize wastelands over other staples though since it's one of the most important staples you can have for legacy period.
As for wasteland/loam package, it's fun and can be back-breaking against opposing fair decks with more than one color but I feel like there's not many slots left to move around once punishing fire came into the mix. I'd rather Sylvan Library as a singleton. I think it would depend on what kind of meta you'd be playing on whether you would run Life from the Loam anywhere in your 75.
ive been know to sling some random brews from time to time, because I like trying out new things, and if you arent learning you are falling father behind.
With that said, I do also have a stable of (mostly) up to date teir one and teir two decks.
Dont be the douchebag that instantly boots people 'cause you dont recognize what deck they are playing. TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE GAME, I have no problem pulling out specific decks for people who want to test against them.
Check legacy box/put something like 2/3 legacy SB in the tittle you might be pleasantly surprised at what you get
I concur with what you said in terms of learning to brew. Also, I've never booted a person because they're playing a brew. I think right now I'd rather just face decks that are major players within the general meta of legacy since I'm still fairly new to the format.
Just open up a game, check the box that says "Legacy", and make sure to put something inthe note about serious testing (i.e. "2/3 competitive sb") and you'll get people joining your game to playtest in no time.
Hmmm...I guess I'll try that. I generally don't like testing against random people on Cocaktrice because of the likelihood of running into random brews. Guess I'll have to playtest that way though, at least until I ask my fellow paper legacy players if they have a cockatrice account.
Was wondering if there's anyone here who plays on Cocktrice and would be willing to play with me whenever they're online? My username on play.woogerworks.com is: Dragonslayer90. I'm mostly playing Punishing Jund at the moment since that's what I own in real life, but I may switch over to Shardless BUG or Esper Stoneblade in the near future.
More info on Maplewood Legacy: Talked to a friend on facebook who went to one of their tournaments last Saturday. He said they are currently allowing people to proxy ten cards and that the prize structure is done in boosters.
So a friend told me that Maplewood Hobby recently started having legacy tournaments at 7 PM on Saturdays. This must have started doing this within the last few weeks since it's the first I heard of it and the guy who's in charge of Magic at the shop said they got 6 people last Saturday.
Here's the store info for those interested:
Maplewood Hobby, Inc.
1970 Springfield Avenue
Maplewood, NJ 07040-3436
(973) 378-3839
They haven't listed their legacy tournaments yet, but I suspect that's because they only started doing them very recently.
I plan on starting to go since I know a lot of the people there already. I will probably still go to Time Zone Gaming though when I can since the crowd there is pretty chill. Just wanted to let Northern Jersey Legacy folks know you have another option on Saturdays. Anyone can message me if you feel like coming to at least check the place out.
Please note: I don't work for or represent Maplewood Hobby in any official way. I'm just another customer trying to support this new endeavor of theirs.
Okay. I think we all agree that Cascade abuses suspend cards in general.
But it does matter when we are talking about specific combinations of cascade and suspend cards. For example, I really don't see why anyone would play violent outburst to cascade into Ancestral Visions in Modern if the latter were unbanned. Maybe in a RUG midrange or a control deck. But at that point, why not just run can trips and other sources of Card Advantage that are less random than hoping to cascade into a 'free' Ancestral Recall. There's no playable library manipulation in Modern like Brainstorm in legacy that would allow you to setup a cascade into Ancestral Visions. The closest thing we have to that is Serum Visions, but with Serum Visions the following conditions have to be met: 1. AV can't be in your hand 2. You can't draw into it with Serum Visions. 3. It has to be one of the Top 2 cards after you've drawn your card with Serum Visions. With brainstorm in Legacy, even if AV is in your hand, you can just put it on top for you to cascade into it, usually with Shardless Agent or BBE.
Now, let's say hypothetically speaking pros have come up with a legit reason to use a cascade spell to play AV for free. Okay, that's still not going bring them dramatically closer to ending the game like Living End usually does. It's only a means for them to either get to a win condition, catch up if they're behind, or get further ahead if they're already winning so that can close out the game sooner.
Yes, I do own a mostly complete Legacy Jund deck. It's missing the third Badlands to make it 100% legit but I have everything else. Been getting by using a Blood Crypt in place of the third Badlands since I've only played at store-level tournaments so far.
For me Shardless BUG and Jund are only similar by being midrange decks, with the latter having better capability of being aggressive and the former better at being more controlling. I know that switching from Jund to Shardless BUG would involve some learning new things like how to use Brainstorm properly.
Actually, I was thinking about getting into Shardless BUG because of the the fact that it's cheaper for me to get into than Esper Stoneblade atm. I already have a lot of the important green and black cards from Jund as well as a good amount of the mana base. I even have a playset of Misty Rainforest. Either that or I was going to just wait till I have enough for Stoneblade and just be content with Jund until then, though the increase in price of Polluted Deltas and Underground Seas makes me want get into Shardless BUG so that I can at least get those as soon as possible before they increase any further. I'm really going to have to think on it.
Actually, my friend and I were discussing how to keep combo in check in Modern without banning the **** out of it yesterday. He said we don't need to have blue be in that role. We could put black in that role instead. He was thinking a slightly less powerful version of Hymn to Tourach. Basically Hymn without the random clause since what makes Hymn a bit too powerful for Modern is its ability to hit lands in the opponent's hand. Just wanted to mention it since in response to what Negator87 said.
As for comparing Modern to Legacy, I want to say the way things are right now, I definitely prefer Legacy to Modern. But that does not mean I think Modern is a piece-of-**** format. Yes I'm despondent about the state of affairs in modern currently, but I know I'm not going completely abandon it. I actually plan on having playsets of each shocks by the end of the summer and on at least drafting Modern Masters when I can if I don't buy a box just to have enough staples for when I feel like playing Modern.
I also don't play modern right now because the store that brings in the most for modern doesn't have a competitive enough scene for my taste. I don't enjoy winning the majority of the time if there's no challenge in it. However, I noticed when I searched for stores near where I live, a lot of them are going to have Modern as an FNM format come June. I'm hoping that Modern Masters will be successful so that I have another option for constructed on Friday nights besides Standard.
For my fellow Legacy players, give modern more time to grow and maybe even pick up the shocks when you can since now is a good time to do so.
1. I'm a college student currently supported by my parents mostly. I get a weekly allowance from them that allows me to save money up over time when I don't spend it on my leisurely activites. I plan on slowly acquiring the pieces to build more legacy decks, but I appreciate the advice.
2. Playstyle-wise, Shardless BUG might be a better fit since I've played Jund for so long, but I've always wanted to play Esper Blade since I think the deck is just uber-cool and I've always wanted to play a powerful control deck. I'll probably even try TES or ANT at some point since I think Storm Combo decks are just beautiful. Not sure if I've found my primary playstyle yet. Think I'm still experimenting since it's only been about year since I go back into Magic and became so much more competitive.
It really depends on what you want the deck for. If you just want it for store level tournaments then you could get away with not having onslaught fetches. The only downside is that it makes you a little softer to Blood Moon and/or Price of Progress since you may not always be able to fetch all the basics you need as consistently. Assuming you have everything from the Modern Jund deck, I'd prioritize it in the following way: 1 Get Duals and Groves first (at least 2 Bayou and 2 Badlands, at least 3 Groves probably), 2. Wastelands second (At least 3; in the mean time you can just include more basics in place of the wasteland slots or something like that). 3. Onslaught fetches last. Besides the lands, you won't have to spend much to port your modern deck over to Legacy. Mabye $10 on a Sylvan Library and $4 on a playset of Hymns. Stuff like that.
With regards to Jund I don't think it's a good idea to run no wastelands period. You don't often play the mana denial game with wastelands, but they are good for killing opposing groves and any other lands giving your opponent utility. However, there are situations you will want to play the mana denial game, like keeping the stoneblade player off jace mana. I'd run at least three, but I can see running two even for budget reasons. I'd prioritize wastelands over other staples though since it's one of the most important staples you can have for legacy period.
As for wasteland/loam package, it's fun and can be back-breaking against opposing fair decks with more than one color but I feel like there's not many slots left to move around once punishing fire came into the mix. I'd rather Sylvan Library as a singleton. I think it would depend on what kind of meta you'd be playing on whether you would run Life from the Loam anywhere in your 75.
I concur with what you said in terms of learning to brew. Also, I've never booted a person because they're playing a brew. I think right now I'd rather just face decks that are major players within the general meta of legacy since I'm still fairly new to the format.
Hmmm...I guess I'll try that. I generally don't like testing against random people on Cocaktrice because of the likelihood of running into random brews. Guess I'll have to playtest that way though, at least until I ask my fellow paper legacy players if they have a cockatrice account.
Here's the store info for those interested:
Maplewood Hobby, Inc.
1970 Springfield Avenue
Maplewood, NJ 07040-3436
(973) 378-3839
They haven't listed their legacy tournaments yet, but I suspect that's because they only started doing them very recently.
I plan on starting to go since I know a lot of the people there already. I will probably still go to Time Zone Gaming though when I can since the crowd there is pretty chill. Just wanted to let Northern Jersey Legacy folks know you have another option on Saturdays. Anyone can message me if you feel like coming to at least check the place out.
Please note: I don't work for or represent Maplewood Hobby in any official way. I'm just another customer trying to support this new endeavor of theirs.