This seems like one of Jund's more difficult match-ups. The problem is not only GoST but also the fact that if we don't have answer on the turn they tap out to play him, we get our spells and threats countered and/or removed for GoST to swing in. I'm particularly worried about this match-up since I saw around two or three people playing it at my last FNM and only expect it to get more popular since the former UW Delver players are probably going to pick it up, which consists of a good chunk of my meta.
Answers I've heard regarding this problem:
- MD or side in Liliana of the Veil or another edict effect (like Tribute to Hunger)
- side in Rolling Temblor. Some have even said it might be even worth md'ing since it's an early wrath that can be good against aggro decks.
- Make some room in your mana base for a couple of Cavern of Souls as answer to counter spells. I myself am considering this. However, I'm hesitant about it since it could potentially mess up our mana base because we don't have tribal theme for the creatures we usually play.
Lets discuss what are the best ways to answer and play against this 'Delverless' Delver deck.
"Dragonslayer90" is my Cockactrice name. Almost the same as my username on here. I just got into modern since I'm getting sick of standard and because there's a gaming shop not too far from my place that hosts a modern tournament every weekend. For now I'm playing RUG Delver. Prefer to face decks in that are Tier 1 or Tier 2.
I know how u feel wanting to keep by Mana Leak, I dropped it because it has never been good enough. During the turns where Mana Leak is most effective I would rather be doing something else to progress my board state. I opted for 4x Lingering Souls over any Mana Leak's and I have not missed it. The problem is late game top decking Mana Leak is very underwhelming, where as Lingering Souls is a threat on the board. I am personally wanting to throw DOJ mb because my meta is this: "Overextend to go over top of stalled board stated for the win....." and really where a lot deck's as a whole are going....
Hmmm...might consider adding another lingering souls or two to my list. How has four been working out for you?
Anyone still playing this deck? Didn't see any at SCGVegas today. Why has it lost its popularity?
I played mine to a 1-1-1 finish at my FNM this previous Friday for the first time (Though it's only an FNM). 2 out of my three games were close so I think I just need to tweak the deck a bit and get more play out of it.
Thinking of taking out one land for another Mana Leak or Oblivion Ring. Probably also change the sb a bit as well. I'm not MB'ing any doom blades because Zombies is becoming more and more popular.
What should be my game plan against control decks. I didn't face any last week, but there's always few running around in my meta. For example, the Top 4 last Friday had a UB Control deck and a Miracle control deck. I have Jace in my sb for them but sometimes I wonder if that's enough. I hold onto the leaks in mb because there's a chance of my running up against control and that's why I'm even thinking of adding one more.
How Competitive: Mostly for a tournament held every Saturday at store that's close enough to my place.
Favorite Cards/Colors: Black is my absolute favorite but I also really like blue because of it's control cards. However, I respect the other colors and can work with them if need be.
Budget: Willing to invest in staples. Up to 500 dollars preferably, maybe 700 even.
While control is my favorite archetype, I'm thinking of going the Tempo/Midrange route instead. Not a fan of the option offered by control in Modern. I'm thinking either Delver, Jund, or Faeries. Also, what's the best delver deck in modern if I decide to play a delver deck (RUG, UWR Scepter, UB, UW)?
I actually played two mono-green decks last night and had 0 problems with either of them. The only deck that keeps holding me up is Delver, which is always a VERY close match, sadly seems to slightly favor them, but it is damn close.
I find the MD Timely's especially nice with the amount of aggro/delver lists I have been running into. Torpor Orb affects basically every deck in the format right now in some way and find I am sideboarding it in every round.
What I feel has been weak and can change:
Mortarpod - While testing at home, it seemed to do it's job pretty well, but only enjoyed seeing it lategame when going for the win off Souls tokens. Certainly on the chopping block
Consecrated Sphinx - While he certainly doesn't need any explanation, with the amount of Delver I have seen as of late, he seems to get sideboarded out vs. Vapor Snags. Probably cut down to 1
Despise - In the same boat as Mortarpod: Playtests great but feel like when I draw it, if not on turn 1-2, It could be something more useful.
Curse - Never feel like I need it. Probably switch out for another Timely
Cutouts:
-1 Mortarpod
-1 Consecrated Sphinx
-2 Despise
-1 Curse of Death's Hold
Bring in:
+4 ?
+1 Timely Reinforcement
Have been thinking of bringing in Snap. There has been tons of board positions where I wish I had some. Siding him out for Torpor Orbs feels like a fair trade while still only hurting my opponent and I get to keep my Planeswalker package together.
Again, my biggest problem seems to be Delver, which ALWAYS seems to go to Game 3, and usually to Turns. Anyone else suffering at the hands of Delver? (Is it October yet?) Was thinking possibly Gut Shot, but with the soon-to-be-seen Rancor, I am leaning more towards Mental Misstep...not sure
I actually mb two curse of death's hold and have one in the side only because there's always a decent chance of me playing WRR in my meta. If you have little to no chance of facing that deck, it might be okay to cut the Curses. Otherwise you should probably have at least two curse of death's hold in the sb.
Regarding Snapcaster: I run a pretty similar list to yours since I started out using Shaheen Soorani's list and made my own adjustments. I use to run three Despise mb, but I replaced them with three Snapcasters. That may be one too many since I have about only 8 or 9 worth targets to snap back. But I've been happy running three in my playtesting. I'll see how my next FNM goes to see if I'm going to cut him down to two or not. I think he's actually worth running despite the small amount of targets since it allows you to recur DoJ or even Terminus (I often get to 8 mana and beyond) when you need another board sweeper and haven't drawed into another. I know in this meta you can never have enough wrath effects.
With Curse, it's usually a really bad Revoke Existence for me vs. tokens for, and doesn't do much against anything else (maybe Delver and Pod?). With Liliana, it seems to hinge on whether or not I can hit a Thrun or something, and/or discard Think Twice or Lingering Souls to her +1 ability. Haven't tried Despise yet.
Also, I can't imagine life without Elesh Norn. She just straight up wins me SO many games.
Curse to me is something that significantly swings the WRR match-up in my favor. There's always seems to be two or three WRR players at my FNM. That's the only thing that keeps me from relegating them to the SB or taking them out completely.
Liliana has been pretty good for me in the mid to late game where I've curved out and don't necessarily need any more lands and other stuff I don't need anymore at that point. Against Aggro, I try to play her once they've played another threat after I've wiped the board. I find her to be really good if you can play her at the right time and protect her. If she sticks around long enough she'll cripple an opponent long enough for you to finish them off.
Despise can be a crap shoot sometimes. It depends on whether they have good starting hand or not. I honestly think of it as another way of stalling at worst and at best something that can really ruin player's early game.
Thinking about changing over to Esper Planeswalkers from Esper Solar Flare for my next FNM. I've been having mixed results with the latter, and I've been getting kind of sick of it in general. If I do run Esper Superfriends, I'll probably run this list, thought I'll probably tweak the MB and SB a little bit before Friday:
This build was originally made by Shaheen Soorani. He made the Top 8 at one SCG Invitational and another guy piloted the same 75 to a Top finish at SCG Detroit.
My meta has consists mostly of Delver, WRR, Humans, and UW Miracle Control. Other Decks that make occasional appearances include UB Control and Zombies but they aren't as well represented. What are the good and bad MUs for this deck?
-2 Ghost 1/4 -- I just think you need more coloured mana producers. Not sure which ones, as i don't have the time to do the math right now. The only thing you really need these for is Wolf Run and I think you should win that match-up anyway. You are already dead to Drownyard and these won't make the necessary difference. SB them in for that match-up.
I actually had the ghost quarters in my mb as an answer to Human decks that run Moorland Haunt. Do you think I should still have them in the sb instead?
As far as I know (I'm still kind of new to the FNM I'm going to), the only control being played in my meta is either Solar Flare, Superfriends, and some other random control decks that don't run Nephalia Drownyard so I'm not too woried about it.
I've been trying to tune the mainboard for a favorable match up against Humans since that's a pretty popular deck in my meta. Hence why I'm running four board sweepers. I tried to tool my sideboard for control mirrors mostly, though I think that part of my deck could use some work still. Any critique and advice would be appreciated.
Also, what are people's opinions are running Batterskull versus Gideon?
Answers I've heard regarding this problem:
- MD or side in Liliana of the Veil or another edict effect (like Tribute to Hunger)
- side in Rolling Temblor. Some have even said it might be even worth md'ing since it's an early wrath that can be good against aggro decks.
- Make some room in your mana base for a couple of Cavern of Souls as answer to counter spells. I myself am considering this. However, I'm hesitant about it since it could potentially mess up our mana base because we don't have tribal theme for the creatures we usually play.
Lets discuss what are the best ways to answer and play against this 'Delverless' Delver deck.
Hmmm...might consider adding another lingering souls or two to my list. How has four been working out for you?
I played mine to a 1-1-1 finish at my FNM this previous Friday for the first time (Though it's only an FNM). 2 out of my three games were close so I think I just need to tweak the deck a bit and get more play out of it.
Here's what I ran:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Restoration Angel
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Sun Titan
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Go for the Throat
2 Gut Shot
2 Mana Leak
2 Thought Scour
1 Tragic Slip
2 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
3 Celestial Purge
2 Dissipate
1 Divine Offering
1 Negate
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Day of Judgment
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Unburial Rites
Thinking of taking out one land for another Mana Leak or Oblivion Ring. Probably also change the sb a bit as well. I'm not MB'ing any doom blades because Zombies is becoming more and more popular.
What should be my game plan against control decks. I didn't face any last week, but there's always few running around in my meta. For example, the Top 4 last Friday had a UB Control deck and a Miracle control deck. I have Jace in my sb for them but sometimes I wonder if that's enough. I hold onto the leaks in mb because there's a chance of my running up against control and that's why I'm even thinking of adding one more.
By: Nicholas Werner
2012 TCGplayer Open 5K - OrlandoType II
Main Deck:
4 Blade Splicer
1 Gideon Jura
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sun Titan
1 Dismember
2 Doom Blade
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Go for the Throat
2 Gut Shot
2 Lingering Souls
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Batterskull
3 Celestial Purge
2 Day of Judgment
2 Dissipate
1 Divine Offering
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Timely Reinforcements
How Competitive: Mostly for a tournament held every Saturday at store that's close enough to my place.
Favorite Cards/Colors: Black is my absolute favorite but I also really like blue because of it's control cards. However, I respect the other colors and can work with them if need be.
Budget: Willing to invest in staples. Up to 500 dollars preferably, maybe 700 even.
Staples Owned: Playset of Snaps, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Cryptic Command
While control is my favorite archetype, I'm thinking of going the Tempo/Midrange route instead. Not a fan of the option offered by control in Modern. I'm thinking either Delver, Jund, or Faeries. Also, what's the best delver deck in modern if I decide to play a delver deck (RUG, UWR Scepter, UB, UW)?
I actually mb two curse of death's hold and have one in the side only because there's always a decent chance of me playing WRR in my meta. If you have little to no chance of facing that deck, it might be okay to cut the Curses. Otherwise you should probably have at least two curse of death's hold in the sb.
Regarding Snapcaster: I run a pretty similar list to yours since I started out using Shaheen Soorani's list and made my own adjustments. I use to run three Despise mb, but I replaced them with three Snapcasters. That may be one too many since I have about only 8 or 9 worth targets to snap back. But I've been happy running three in my playtesting. I'll see how my next FNM goes to see if I'm going to cut him down to two or not. I think he's actually worth running despite the small amount of targets since it allows you to recur DoJ or even Terminus (I often get to 8 mana and beyond) when you need another board sweeper and haven't drawed into another. I know in this meta you can never have enough wrath effects.
Curse to me is something that significantly swings the WRR match-up in my favor. There's always seems to be two or three WRR players at my FNM. That's the only thing that keeps me from relegating them to the SB or taking them out completely.
Liliana has been pretty good for me in the mid to late game where I've curved out and don't necessarily need any more lands and other stuff I don't need anymore at that point. Against Aggro, I try to play her once they've played another threat after I've wiped the board. I find her to be really good if you can play her at the right time and protect her. If she sticks around long enough she'll cripple an opponent long enough for you to finish them off.
Despise can be a crap shoot sometimes. It depends on whether they have good starting hand or not. I honestly think of it as another way of stalling at worst and at best something that can really ruin player's early game.
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Gideon Jura
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Day of Judgment
3 Despise
1 Doom Blade
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Go for the Throat
4 Lingering Souls
1 Mortarpod
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Terminus
3 Think Twice
1 Tragic Slip
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Swamp
1 Batterskull
2 Celestial Purge
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Karn Liberated
3 Memoricide
1 Praetor's Grasp
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Revoke Existence
1 Volition Reins
This build was originally made by Shaheen Soorani. He made the Top 8 at one SCG Invitational and another guy piloted the same 75 to a Top finish at SCG Detroit.
My meta has consists mostly of Delver, WRR, Humans, and UW Miracle Control. Other Decks that make occasional appearances include UB Control and Zombies but they aren't as well represented. What are the good and bad MUs for this deck?
I actually had the ghost quarters in my mb as an answer to Human decks that run Moorland Haunt. Do you think I should still have them in the sb instead?
As far as I know (I'm still kind of new to the FNM I'm going to), the only control being played in my meta is either Solar Flare, Superfriends, and some other random control decks that don't run Nephalia Drownyard so I'm not too woried about it.
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Sun Titan
2 Dead Weight
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Go for the Throat
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Lingering Souls
3 Ponder
1 Terminus
1 Unburial Rites
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Negate
4 Mana Leak
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Dissipate
1 Go for the Throat
I've been trying to tune the mainboard for a favorable match up against Humans since that's a pretty popular deck in my meta. Hence why I'm running four board sweepers. I tried to tool my sideboard for control mirrors mostly, though I think that part of my deck could use some work still. Any critique and advice would be appreciated.
Also, what are people's opinions are running Batterskull versus Gideon?