It seems like growth spiral is only good if you can use a ton of mana (teachings/nexus/scapeshift), and you have a ton of 2 mana spells/instants. UW is more tap out and stops at 5-6 mana for colonnade/teferi.
Yeah I agree with other posters about the cost of playing control. You need to know when to f2, f3, f4, f6 and f8. Knowing that involves which cards your opponent can play or what can happen on board. F6ing is a bit worse time saver now that there's a free counter in force of negation and people main deck surgical. You should also have minimal stops if going to time is a problem.
Unfortunately you just need to practice with your function keys and play tons more matches.
Is surgical good to main deck anymore? Nassif on his stream said he doesn't think so. It's not really the best hate card vs hogaak. You need to surgical both hogaak and bridge, and still deal with vengevines and bloodghasts. Sure it does give you a better chance to win game one, but is it that good versus the field (new meta?). You want surgical game 1 vs storm, valakut, UR phoenix, tron, and classic dredge. I think those decks are on the decline. Hogaak is a better dredge deck. Tron isn't that good vs hogaak, unless they start main decking 3-4 relics. Storm will also be on the decline (i think humans will see an uptick), and Mono R Phoenix is probably going to pass UR phoenix in popularity. R phoenix is more threat dense than UR phoenix, so surgical isn't as strong. Valakut decks are too slow, and there are not many green creature decks that it preys on. Surgical is theoretically good vs amulet titan, but i feel like it's really hard to extract titans vs a good amulet player. I think humans is going to go in an uptick again, which surgical is awful there.
Here is someone with a good pedigree with the hogaak deck, he says UW control, elves, burn, bridge/prison decks, tron with relics main, and company decks are all bad match ups. Also i've been reading comments about this eldrazi tron player just crushing all the people playing hogaak in modern leagues. You can expect to see an uptick in those decks, which surgical is awful against (except regular tron).
Based on that reddit thread, UW is still good vs hogaak, and if you main surgical it gives you a shot game 1. Looking at the sideboard guide in the reddit thread, they bring in a ton of answers (6, 8 if you include thoughtseize) to RIP. That's not an unbeatable plan as current UW boards can combat that. But is surgical worth it vs the field? Probably not?
As for relic, the UW aficionados tested that card and they think it sucks. It messes with snap and logic knot, and then UW doesn't have a fast enough clock to make that short term disruption matter. UW aficionados would rather experiment with a prison version of the deck with main deck RIPs and no snaps. But I think you want 3 if not 4 RIPs (in the 75) if hogaak is popular in your meta.
Generous gift isn't really worth it unless the walkers passive prevented creature tokens or something. Having to spend part of a card or loyalty doesn't seem worth it.
On winds of abandon I think you just want cheaper cards so you can cast the 3 cmc walkers on turn 4 and still interact or draw into interaction.
On thin ice seems great as a 1 or 2 of if only we had snow shocks.
It seems hard to fit Archmage charm in the current lists, but we'll see how modern horizons shakes up the current meta. Maybe the control magic part is really good.
I've played the mirror a little and also watched nassif stream the mirror a little bit. I don't think remand is where you want to be. Obviously t3feri turns off any counter, but narset potentially make the draw a card text on remand dead. The remand for value play is pretty situational. I think you just want to shove walkers through permission, so it's more about efficiency and threats than value counters. I think veto is just better, especially since it's better versus the field. Another thing to note is the spell snare is not that good in the mirror anymore remand turns on people who play snare.
As for the future builds with modern horizon cards.
Most lists play 2 plains, I think it might be necessary to cut that plains for a mystic gate to play archmage's charm. My gut tells me that's still not enough blue sources so it's doubtful this card will be played in multiples without reworking the mana base.
Do you think fact or fiction is needed to fuel multiple force of negations? Or do the walkers make up for being down a card? And eventually you can hard cast force of negation. I guess that needs to be tested to find out.
I think you want 3-4 snapcasters, the card is just so good. If you run more snaps, opt becomes better, and opt is way better in the mirror to not get crushed by narset.
It's exciting to be a control mage again. Though the lists are feeling a bit legacy light with all the hyper efficient cards. I think it's sad we can't just have a bunch of 4 drop value cards anymore (like playing 4 cryptics). But i guess that's the eventual outcome of a non-rotating format. We'll see what they do with arena and creating a format for the cards that rotate out of standard.
Force of negation lets UW players tap out for turn 4 jace vs every deck. Normally if you tap out vs tron or combo you lose, this is no longer the case.
Dovin, Hand of Control is so bad with path to exile. And if it's ability is good, UW is probably not worth playing. GotT seems good again. I like it against tron as it's a main deckable card that can pressure that stupid Karn, the Great Creator, which is a huge beating. They tutor up defense grid, and you basically lose unless you counter it on the spot. Although looking at some lists, it doesn't seem like defense grid is that common.
In addition to what was already stated, playing more basics also gives you more lands that tap for mana which is useful in long games.
I think Depose // Deploy is a bad wall of omens. I forgot how awesome it is to path your wall when your removal is dead. Wall also protects your walkers.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, but at one point the UW mirror came to decking as all the cards traded with each other. Playing azcanta was so bad since the milling aspect and drawing cards makes you deck sooner, and if you're playing mtgo it just eats up your clock. I remember watching Bennyhillz talk about it on his stream that his opponent was dumb for milling cards with azcanta.
What do you guys think about playing the new karn in this deck? Like a 1 of, so you can lock people out with Mycosynth Lattice, tutor up some sort of value/hate card like relic of progenitus or crucible of worlds, when you can't afford to play lattice. I assume the karn has a lower floor but higher ceiling than other value cards you'd play like a 3rd jace or 2nd/3rd teferi or the 4 mana instant divinations, where as those cards I listed are pretty consistent. Also the static ability just hoses some decks, like tron, which has picked up in popularity. Stupid lattice is 28 tix on mtgo now...
It seems gimmicky, and it only gets worse when people find out what's up, but I haven't played with the new teferi yet since it's overpriced online. I don't see why you'd play 4 knowledge pools, i'd go down to three and play a thirst for knowledge or a cryptic.
4 main deck grave hate cards with 3 spellbombs and 1 kaya.
2 sweepers main (most people play 4?)
4 snapcasters (most people 3, so i guess playing 4 isn't that big of a stretch)
24 lands (seems like the range is 24-26)
1 man land (seems like the most people play 3)
Nassif played 74/75 of this list on stream the other day. He said 24 lands seemed low, and he switched an opt for a spellbomb, as he thought you should have 4 opts if you have 4 snapcasters. I believe he said if he wanted to add a land you'd probably cut push.
Seems reasonable, but I don't know if this has better match ups compared to UW.
https://twitter.com/McWinSauce/status/1142550022480912385
It seems like growth spiral is only good if you can use a ton of mana (teachings/nexus/scapeshift), and you have a ton of 2 mana spells/instants. UW is more tap out and stops at 5-6 mana for colonnade/teferi.
Unfortunately you just need to practice with your function keys and play tons more matches.
https://mobile.twitter.com/McWinSauce/status/1138533835912749056
Here is someone with a good pedigree with the hogaak deck, he says UW control, elves, burn, bridge/prison decks, tron with relics main, and company decks are all bad match ups. Also i've been reading comments about this eldrazi tron player just crushing all the people playing hogaak in modern leagues. You can expect to see an uptick in those decks, which surgical is awful against (except regular tron).
Based on that reddit thread, UW is still good vs hogaak, and if you main surgical it gives you a shot game 1. Looking at the sideboard guide in the reddit thread, they bring in a ton of answers (6, 8 if you include thoughtseize) to RIP. That's not an unbeatable plan as current UW boards can combat that. But is surgical worth it vs the field? Probably not?
As for relic, the UW aficionados tested that card and they think it sucks. It messes with snap and logic knot, and then UW doesn't have a fast enough clock to make that short term disruption matter. UW aficionados would rather experiment with a prison version of the deck with main deck RIPs and no snaps. But I think you want 3 if not 4 RIPs (in the 75) if hogaak is popular in your meta.
The thing with puzzle box is that if you cast it before narset, it helps you dig for narset to put the opponent in the soft lock.
McWinSauce posted a list with the puzzle box, 3 narsets and 1 Geier Reach Sanitarium. https://twitter.com/McWinSauce/status/1134957680194445312
I don't know how good it is, but it does seem fun locking people out.
On winds of abandon I think you just want cheaper cards so you can cast the 3 cmc walkers on turn 4 and still interact or draw into interaction.
On thin ice seems great as a 1 or 2 of if only we had snow shocks.
It seems hard to fit Archmage charm in the current lists, but we'll see how modern horizons shakes up the current meta. Maybe the control magic part is really good.
As for the future builds with modern horizon cards.
Most lists play 2 plains, I think it might be necessary to cut that plains for a mystic gate to play archmage's charm. My gut tells me that's still not enough blue sources so it's doubtful this card will be played in multiples without reworking the mana base.
Do you think fact or fiction is needed to fuel multiple force of negations? Or do the walkers make up for being down a card? And eventually you can hard cast force of negation. I guess that needs to be tested to find out.
I think you want 3-4 snapcasters, the card is just so good. If you run more snaps, opt becomes better, and opt is way better in the mirror to not get crushed by narset.
It's exciting to be a control mage again. Though the lists are feeling a bit legacy light with all the hyper efficient cards. I think it's sad we can't just have a bunch of 4 drop value cards anymore (like playing 4 cryptics). But i guess that's the eventual outcome of a non-rotating format. We'll see what they do with arena and creating a format for the cards that rotate out of standard.
In addition to what was already stated, playing more basics also gives you more lands that tap for mana which is useful in long games.
I think Depose // Deploy is a bad wall of omens. I forgot how awesome it is to path your wall when your removal is dead. Wall also protects your walkers.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, but at one point the UW mirror came to decking as all the cards traded with each other. Playing azcanta was so bad since the milling aspect and drawing cards makes you deck sooner, and if you're playing mtgo it just eats up your clock. I remember watching Bennyhillz talk about it on his stream that his opponent was dumb for milling cards with azcanta.
What do you guys think about playing the new karn in this deck? Like a 1 of, so you can lock people out with Mycosynth Lattice, tutor up some sort of value/hate card like relic of progenitus or crucible of worlds, when you can't afford to play lattice. I assume the karn has a lower floor but higher ceiling than other value cards you'd play like a 3rd jace or 2nd/3rd teferi or the 4 mana instant divinations, where as those cards I listed are pretty consistent. Also the static ability just hoses some decks, like tron, which has picked up in popularity. Stupid lattice is 28 tix on mtgo now...
https://old.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/blfctl/uw_teferis_pool_tournament_report_9th_scg/
It seems gimmicky, and it only gets worse when people find out what's up, but I haven't played with the new teferi yet since it's overpriced online. I don't see why you'd play 4 knowledge pools, i'd go down to three and play a thirst for knowledge or a cryptic.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/reviving-esper-control-in-modern-2nd-place-at-scg-cleveland/?_ga=2.10658932.118116238.1555085752-854912191.1530046218
apparently this version of esper crushes shadow and phoenix
www.starcitygames.com/decks/Star_City_Games_Open/2019-04-06_modern_Cleveland_OH_US/1/
2nd Place at Star City Games Open on 4/6/2019 Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
1 Cast Down
3 Cryptic Command
3 Esper Charm
3 Fatal Push
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
3 Opt
4 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
2 Celestial Purge
1 Dispel
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Collective Brutality
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unmoored Ego
The interesting choices about the deck are:
4 main deck grave hate cards with 3 spellbombs and 1 kaya.
2 sweepers main (most people play 4?)
4 snapcasters (most people 3, so i guess playing 4 isn't that big of a stretch)
24 lands (seems like the range is 24-26)
1 man land (seems like the most people play 3)
Nassif played 74/75 of this list on stream the other day. He said 24 lands seemed low, and he switched an opt for a spellbomb, as he thought you should have 4 opts if you have 4 snapcasters. I believe he said if he wanted to add a land you'd probably cut push.
Seems reasonable, but I don't know if this has better match ups compared to UW.
I think the only time you want the third plains is vs moon decks. Another fetch is fine since you're playing azcanta.