You're looking at the card with blinders on. All you see is the worst case scenario of EOT Gifts, untap, cast recursion, cast combo, win, all while holding countermagic. Yes, it can do that, and in experience, it most often does. (People agree with me about that, btw.) You're still ignoring that even at its most innocent, you're still tutoring for two of four cards of your choice at instant speed. This is something that black, which is the BEST color for tutoring, can't even do for one card.
Well that link you posted it sounded like one guy agreed with me and they other guy forgot about a quote by Abe Lincon, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
You don't get to choose what cards you get unless you concider choosing recursion to get the cards you actually wanted, "the two cards of your choose."
Balck is the best at tutoring cards because you just got get the card you want instead of getting you recurrsion peices to get the card you want.
Again Intuition is quite nearly the same thing at a cheaper cost, and it is legal and fit in the game of EDH quite well.
I am looking at it worst case scenario, because if thats as bad as it gets then it isn't that bad.
Edit: Gifts may set up combos but TnN can end the game on the spot. With Gifts you have to cast [B]%5[/B] cards uninterupted more the THREE other people at the table try to stop you. WHen was the last time you cast % cards and nobady did anything about it? Did you win after that?
How could you possible think that an instant speed tutor for two cards for 2UWrong, see I can do it too 3U is what you where looking for.is not going to be put into every blue deck? Even without running recursion, Gifts is very powerful. Do a Gatherer search for every blue instant for that identical cost and tell me how many other give that amount of card advantage. Fact or Fiction is the closest comparason to Gifts, and FoF is pretty common in blue.
As for interacting badly with Commander, you've got it exactly backwards. Gifts was designed around Standard, where in order to maximize Gifts, you had to build your deck with 1- and 2-ofs, thereby worsening the overall redundancy of your opening draw. Commander is by nature a 1-of format, has 39 more cards in the deck, and most importantly, a Vintage cardpool format. This makes Gifts a hell of a lot better than it was designed to be, because the "drawback" is a plus, and the cards that break Gifts in half weren't designed to be played while Gifts was in Standard.
It is an instant speed tutour for two recursion spells that you then have to play to get your combo peicers back and then you have to play your combo peices so if I cast 5 spell uninterrupted I win. your right thats real "broken". Yes it would go into blue deck just like intuition, but I have yet to here intuition is so "broken" I lose to that card every time.
When it was type two they were trying to make a not as good intuition. People get hung up that it say grab a cards with differnt names if it didn't say you would still begetting cards with differnt names, thats the nature of EDH. Gifts and EDH belong together.
Edit: FoF and Gifts are colser analogs than Mana Drain Counterspell.
Could you please explain why power level shouldn't be a banning criteria?
Well first and foremost it isn't. Secondly what does "power level" mean? I have no idea what it really means so I can't tell why it shouldn't be a banning criteria. I can only tell you what the RC has said the banning criteria is. In some cases (Gifts) there are cards banned that meet none of the criteria and are still banned I am not sure why.
If Sol Ring were $200 it would be banned as well. If LoA were $5 it would probably be unbanned.
Power level is a reason to ban something. At the end of the day, things like 'produces too much mana too quickly' is just another way to say power level. But the RC also takes into account deck construction, cost, audience and intent, among other things. They've apparently determined that, regardless of your deck Gifts Ungiven and Balance are too powerful for their costs and create undesirable games states. Ad Naseum however, you cannot just throw it into any deck. You are very specifically and intentionally creating a combo deck, which there are a lot of in EDH, if you really look.
Power level is NOT a banning criteria.
Timetwister is one blue mana making it very splash-able and it wins games I won just last night off the back of timetiwster.
I am not saying balance should be banned or unbanned (I lean toward unbanned), but it could be said that it creates an undesirable game state (granted with that line of think os does Obliterate and company, but for much more mana) neither Gifts nor Library do this.
On another note I would really like to talk about Gifts Ungiven.
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. (You could win after casting it and four other spells)
* Warps The Format Strategically. (Maybe a deck at best, but not the format)
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. (Doesn't even produce mana)
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. (Not at $10)
* Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander. (Commander being a singelton format I say it interacts perfectly with it, futhermore we already have Intuition.)
These are all the banning Criteria for EDH so I ask why is Gifts banned?
Lets assume it is massivly powerful, but not 'broken'. It is part of the iconic history of Magic, like the Moxes or Time Valut. It also cost $200 bucks. This combination of things keeps it banned.You keep telling people to 'test it and see', why? It wont change the other factors.
10 games wont prove anything. Plus you need other people testing it as well, and trying to abuse it. It could be done, but this 'method' is just bad.
There are lots of cards that are iconic parts of magic history that aren't banned first and foremost, Timetiwster both expensive at $400 and iconic being actually a part of the power nine. Bazaar of Bagdad was made famous by the manaless Ichorid deck and at a price tag of $300 is more expencive than LoA. So why does these principal only apply to LoA?
10 games is all it will take for whom ever is playing to start to realize that it is not as "broken" as most people seem to believe it is.
You can say this over and over again, it's still easily falsified by taking a look at the banlist.
Look at the ban list criteria. No where does it say a card should be banned because of "power level".
On another note I would really like to talk about Gifts Ungiven.
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. (You could win after casting it and four other spells)
* Warps The Format Strategically. (Maybe a deck at best, but not the format)
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. (Doesn't even produce mana)
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. (Not at $10)
* Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander. (Commander being a singelton format I say it interacts perfectly with it, futhermore we already have Intuition.)
These are all the banning Criteria for EDH so I ask why is Gifts banned?
That is a terrible argument. Everyone else would be doing it so that makes it fair? If edh revolves around playing and countering a particular card then the game turns even more into a game of chance. Whoever has their library out first wins. FYI I'm pretty sure the RC would never unban library even if it cost $5.
So I am not sure if you read the whole thing, but it was very well writen, well thought out, and absolutely correct. And, you respond with, " who ever gets their library out first wins." I really don't know what to say. "Everyone else would be doing it so that makes it fair" Sol Ring and Top come to mind read this.
Magus of the Library. Good point, and I forgot that LoA got a Magus as well. The Magus' were a weak example at best for LoA, Bazaar, and Tabernacle because we're going from a colorless land to a colored creature, so I'll concede those points.
Not quite sure what you're trying to say. I'm not going to scroll back and try to requote myself, but I've stated before that Library has true power issues and meets multiple criteria for banning under the RC's philosophy, but having never played with/against it, I'm unsure whether it is better off banned.
Thats the thing man not many people have never played with/against it and they are scared of it because they don't know. Is LoA a great card? Yes. Is it format warping? No.
I challenge you and anyone else reading to note how many time in a game you have 7 cards in hand and post it after you next game day/night.
If you can't even understand why cards are banned you're really not in the position to get as defensive about your list as you are.
With the exceptions of Mana Drain and possibly Imperial Recruiter, none of the cards on your list are cards that are a) overpowered, b) lacking cheaper suitable replacements, and c) would be considered staples if price/availability were not and issue. (In case you aren't sure, "and" means it falls into all three categories.)
Taking a second look at your list, the following have cheap, widely available replacements:
Really ? Xiahou ? The Judge foil is like 23$ shipped. It's not exactly cheap, but it's around what most chase rares are in standard.
I forgot that it had been reprinted in the from the vaults thing. I was told that every card over $100 should be banned and I was showing the guy a list of cards that would be banned if that were true.
Luckily that new player can spend $2 on an almost-as-good Magus of the Abyss.
LoA also would get played a hell of a lot more than almost every card you mentioned.
Whats your point people would enjoy playing it so it should be banned? It would go into "almost every deck" so it should be banned. If thats the case ban Top, Sol Ring, Scroll Rack....
None of those cards are justifiable to be removed. As has been said COUNTLESS times, price does not matter as much as stigma does. New player isn't gonna be upset that The Abyss is expensive and he can't get it. Power are a whole world of difference (and the only cards banned for this reason). I'm probably not going to say this again because no one listens.
LoA is banned for that reason.
Most new players have no idea what power is of what it looks like. To a new player Planes wWalkers are power.
Almost as good as you got me
Well that link you posted it sounded like one guy agreed with me and they other guy forgot about a quote by Abe Lincon, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
You don't get to choose what cards you get unless you concider choosing recursion to get the cards you actually wanted, "the two cards of your choose."
Balck is the best at tutoring cards because you just got get the card you want instead of getting you recurrsion peices to get the card you want.
Again Intuition is quite nearly the same thing at a cheaper cost, and it is legal and fit in the game of EDH quite well.
I am looking at it worst case scenario, because if thats as bad as it gets then it isn't that bad.
Edit: Gifts may set up combos but TnN can end the game on the spot. With Gifts you have to cast [B]%5[/B] cards uninterupted more the THREE other people at the table try to stop you. WHen was the last time you cast % cards and nobady did anything about it? Did you win after that?
It is an instant speed tutour for two recursion spells that you then have to play to get your combo peicers back and then you have to play your combo peices so if I cast 5 spell uninterrupted I win. your right thats real "broken". Yes it would go into blue deck just like intuition, but I have yet to here intuition is so "broken" I lose to that card every time.
When it was type two they were trying to make a not as good intuition. People get hung up that it say grab a cards with differnt names if it didn't say you would still begetting cards with differnt names, thats the nature of EDH. Gifts and EDH belong together.
Edit: FoF and Gifts are colser analogs than Mana Drain Counterspell.
Well first and foremost it isn't. Secondly what does "power level" mean? I have no idea what it really means so I can't tell why it shouldn't be a banning criteria. I can only tell you what the RC has said the banning criteria is. In some cases (Gifts) there are cards banned that meet none of the criteria and are still banned I am not sure why.
Power level is NOT a banning criteria.
Timetwister is one blue mana making it very splash-able and it wins games I won just last night off the back of timetiwster.
I am not saying balance should be banned or unbanned (I lean toward unbanned), but it could be said that it creates an undesirable game state (granted with that line of think os does Obliterate and company, but for much more mana) neither Gifts nor Library do this.
Pact of Negation
There are lots of cards that are iconic parts of magic history that aren't banned first and foremost, Timetiwster both expensive at $400 and iconic being actually a part of the power nine. Bazaar of Bagdad was made famous by the manaless Ichorid deck and at a price tag of $300 is more expencive than LoA. So why does these principal only apply to LoA?
10 games is all it will take for whom ever is playing to start to realize that it is not as "broken" as most people seem to believe it is.
Look at the ban list criteria. No where does it say a card should be banned because of "power level".
On another note I would really like to talk about Gifts Ungiven.
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. (You could win after casting it and four other spells)
* Warps The Format Strategically. (Maybe a deck at best, but not the format)
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. (Doesn't even produce mana)
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. (Not at $10)
* Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander. (Commander being a singelton format I say it interacts perfectly with it, futhermore we already have Intuition.)
These are all the banning Criteria for EDH so I ask why is Gifts banned?
So I am not sure if you read the whole thing, but it was very well writen, well thought out, and absolutely correct. And, you respond with, " who ever gets their library out first wins." I really don't know what to say. "Everyone else would be doing it so that makes it fair" Sol Ring and Top come to mind read this.
Power level is NOT a criteria for banning.
Thats the thing man not many people have never played with/against it and they are scared of it because they don't know. Is LoA a great card? Yes. Is it format warping? No.
I challenge you and anyone else reading to note how many time in a game you have 7 cards in hand and post it after you next game day/night.
Magus Of the Library and what ever that artifact is. so it is just (a) and (c), and (a) is something you made you LoA is not format warping.
I forgot that it had been reprinted in the from the vaults thing. I was told that every card over $100 should be banned and I was showing the guy a list of cards that would be banned if that were true.
Whats your point people would enjoy playing it so it should be banned? It would go into "almost every deck" so it should be banned. If thats the case ban Top, Sol Ring, Scroll Rack....
LoA is banned for that reason.
Most new players have no idea what power is of what it looks like. To a new player Planes wWalkers are power.
There is nothing cheap about those cards, but if you insisit:
Imperial SealCapture of JingzhouOh I forgot the ABU duals, but you get the point.