Additionally, you'll have to determine exactly which qualities you're testing. I asked my wife (the actual rocket scientist in case you didn't know) how she'd approach this. She said "Play N games and see what happens isn't scientific. You'd probably have to evaluate 4-5 qualities--whatever you think is neccessary--and graph them over those N games..." This was about the time my eyes started glazing over and I was distracted also by how beautiful she is.
You missed my actual question. If none of the other cards are based on 'data' then why would this one? A lot of EDH bans are based on opinion and wrecking games, of course bias will factor.
Because it is not a test it is still just your opinion and why should we listen to your opinion over the RC's?
@ BetweenWalls Because you need some consistency, a control, to test if the card is broken.
I can tell you that my group played with Upheaval before we realized it was banned. It was awful getting hit with this thing. 9 times out of 10, the player casting it, floated mana and he was the only one with anything on the board and he won. As a group, we haven't missed it.
His point is really how different is that than any other Mass LD card.
Same way you test anything, play it. The key to remember is we are not testing to see if the card is "fun", but to see if it ruins games more than other similar ones. I don't believe a card like Upheaval is any worse than Jauk/Oblit/ect..
So I guess my main question is do you run it in the deck or the "Test card Zone" similar to the "Commander Zone"
I'm all for independent groups doing as much honest-broker testing as possible. That said, Balance seems like you're starting at the wrong end of the spectrum.
Can we just stay on the topic of testing it please? There is a whole thread for discussion whether or not it should be banned.
You are really good at telling people what to do while failing to do it yourself... what do they call that.
I have been tring to talk about testing this card i want to see it done, but it seems Phil or yourself or anyone wanting to " run these test" don't have time to talk about it.
At the risk of sounding facetious, I think we're trying to win the game. In style.
I like your suggestions, Sneak is a good trick if we're playing gigantic creatures. Words can definitely be useful, because they prevent us from drawing enchantments we'd like to pull from the library.
HAHAHA:D right I get the trying to win the game part. I get that a lot people ask me to help them build a deck I ask "what do you want it to do?",
"Win the game." They say every time with out fail.
Is there a deck list going around I can look at? If so I could be of some use.
I'd like to see a decklist with Balance. Big question in my mind whether or not the list is built to maximize its impact. Balance loves fast artifact starts, sac/discard outlets to really crush opponents. Having played a lot with Balance in the day, I really don't think it should come off. Cards which allow for ridiculous gains or losses in one type of resource should be banned. Balance is one of those.
Good luck tryin to get anwser. They are not taking this seriously I was just so the OP could vent and say "I can do a better job than the RC", and then not do anything about it.
I agree, they are all fun, but the format would not suffer if they were on the ban list. Honestly, I can't believe Workshop is not already on the list. Doesn't it kiind of violate the whole fast mana thing the RC has banned other cards for in the past? For newer players, facing a Workshop, Candelabra, or anyother $100 plus card can seem imposing and may scare them off.
This is how I know you have not been playing Magic very long. The format would indeed be worse off with out them. I play EDH because I get to play all the old iconic cards that made magic the game it is today. This is what EDH is all about. I hate the Price rule because people use it as a crutch really ever other $100 cards should go because they are scary to new players? Most people who are new to the game of magic filp through my deck right past Grim tutor, Timetiwster, Capture, ect with out ever blinking and eye. They have no idea of what they are looking at so to say it would scare new player away is a (I have to say this nicely otherwise I might get suspended again) fallacy.
Interesting enough there is a little known artifact called Scroll of Origins. Similar to Library of Alexandria in that it lets a player draw a card if they have 7 or more cards in hand (for the cost of 2 mana). I've never seen anyone play it. It's less powerful than Library of Alexandria but the restriction of having 7 cards in hand to activate it makes it nearly unplayable. I'm not convinced Library of Alexandria is so good that it must be included in every deck. A deck built around to abuse it yes, but most decks would probably be fine without it.
This is a fact. What you are going to hear is "But, its free CA " ,and "this card it beyond broken" with nothing real to back it up. People are afraid of what they don't know and this is a perfect example.
None of those cards create FREE card advantage. We're also not discussing trying to take them off the ban list. Honestly, I don't think the format would miss any of the cards you mentioned though.
Well you kind of side tracked my thought and I was just trying to make a point. I think were you and I differ in opinion is I don't think it is improtant wether or not the format will miss a card or not (you maybe riht these cards are rarely seen), but what is improtant is being able to play with the cards you want to play, with in a format that is these social. In oder to play Type 2 you have to constantly but cards that are going to immediately drop in value. I have a Leagacy deck and played vintage for a while, but ot of these format bring to the table what EDH does. I get to play with all the old cards that I never really had the chance to play with. In the case of the EDH ban list less is absolutly more.
She reads these sometimes doesn't she?
Because it is not a test it is still just your opinion and why should we listen to your opinion over the RC's?
@ BetweenWalls Because you need some consistency, a control, to test if the card is broken.
His point is really how different is that than any other Mass LD card.
So I guess my main question is do you run it in the deck or the "Test card Zone" similar to the "Commander Zone"
Fair enough. How would you go about testing it?
You did say "in style", but this is very ambiguous.
Lucent Liminid is beautiful but I don't understand.
Where would you suggest starting?
I wasn't sure that's why I left the comment open ended I said is there a deck list going around instead of do you have a deck list.
Well then first and fore most cards like Solitary Confinement and In the eye of Chaos may not be bad. I would still like to see a deck list.
You are really good at telling people what to do while failing to do it yourself... what do they call that.
I have been tring to talk about testing this card i want to see it done, but it seems Phil or yourself or anyone wanting to " run these test" don't have time to talk about it.
HAHAHA:D right I get the trying to win the game part. I get that a lot people ask me to help them build a deck I ask "what do you want it to do?",
"Win the game." They say every time with out fail.
Is there a deck list going around I can look at? If so I could be of some use.
Good luck tryin to get anwser. They are not taking this seriously I was just so the OP could vent and say "I can do a better job than the RC", and then not do anything about it.
This is how I know you have not been playing Magic very long. The format would indeed be worse off with out them. I play EDH because I get to play all the old iconic cards that made magic the game it is today. This is what EDH is all about. I hate the Price rule because people use it as a crutch really ever other $100 cards should go because they are scary to new players? Most people who are new to the game of magic filp through my deck right past Grim tutor, Timetiwster, Capture, ect with out ever blinking and eye. They have no idea of what they are looking at so to say it would scare new player away is a (I have to say this nicely otherwise I might get suspended again) fallacy.
This is a fact. What you are going to hear is "But, its free CA
Well you kind of side tracked my thought and I was just trying to make a point. I think were you and I differ in opinion is I don't think it is improtant wether or not the format will miss a card or not (you maybe riht these cards are rarely seen), but what is improtant is being able to play with the cards you want to play, with in a format that is these social. In oder to play Type 2 you have to constantly but cards that are going to immediately drop in value. I have a Leagacy deck and played vintage for a while, but ot of these format bring to the table what EDH does. I get to play with all the old cards that I never really had the chance to play with. In the case of the EDH ban list less is absolutly more.