I'm seeing a lot of posters splash black in the UW builds...what about in a Bant shell? Would splashing a fourth color for Lingering Souls even be worth it? Or is Bant strong enough w/o it?
Where do we sit on the karn vs baby karn decision currently?
I may be the minority here, but I don't think either Karn is mandatory. I took out my 2x Karn for a 1x Ugin and a third Chalice MB a while back and haven't missed him one bit. While Baby Karn's draw abilities are helpful, I almost always would rather have an Eldrazi to cast. If I have it in my hand late game, it's kind of a dead card. I will clarify that I've only goldfished with Baby Karn and proxied one game and wasn't impressed. It can definitely find a home in a different colorless deck, but my aggressive style doesn't tend to care for it.
I'm gonna say some pretty heretical things, so please at least hear me out...
...Retreat to Coralhelm sucks right now, and has sucked for a while.
As someone who has been reading the thread sporadically (and hasn't built the deck yet), would you mind elaborating on this? I don't think your wrong, but I'm curious specifically what reasons make Coralhelm weak right now.
New primer is up. Check it out and let me know what I'm missing in it.
I'm going to slowly add in all of the articles about the deck and videos I can find over the next few days. The deck doesn't have too many variations, so extra cards and stuff isn't really a thing but I added a few anyways. I'll finish some of the formatting then too. Going to try and align all of my primers so they look the same.
That's a great primer. Thank you for your hard work!
Seconded! Been checking in on this thread sporadically and I'm pretty excited to build this deck!
Dumb Question: Why not run any Wastes MB? Since the deck is practically tri-colored, Blood Moon seems like it could cripple half the deck if Mind Stone or Seal of Primordium isn't drawn. It could also be helpful again a Path or FoR. I may be overlooking something super obvious, but I'm just curious. I've been playing E-Tron for awhile and just want to shift gears to something with a littler more versatility and answers.
Also, has anyone tested with All is Dust? Does this card do any good? With even a single Temple and a mana dork, I can see this beingg devastating on Turn 5 again any non-colorless deck.
I've been playing this deck online and it's seems decent so far. The thing I struggle with most is getting gas. After reading through the comments, I don't think Mind Stone should be below 2x as it's the only card draw outside of End Bringer. Are there any other ways to refill your hand? Has anyone tried mainboarding artifact/enchantment hate?
Also, what the ideal opening or mulligan hand? I've been aiming for Hierarch, 1-2 RG lands, 1-2 Temples, Obligator, BBE/Smasher, and a bolt. is that the right way to go?
Hey guys, been a few months since I posted and checked the thread. I had to take a break from the modern scene for awhile.
I'm curious on opinions about Karn Liberated. I run 2x and it's never really done quite as much as its hype demands. Maybe I'm just not playing it right, but it's always been underwhelming outside of a turn 3 play (and even then, doesn't do much to close out the game).
Questions: Is Karn mandatory in any Tron deck? Specifically E-Tron? I'm considering swapping it for a second Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and a thirdMind Stone mainboard. Thoughts?
Also, I saw a random Skysovereign, Consul Flagship on a list recently as surprise removal. Has anyone tested this? Or is it to absurd? You could potentially pilot with a Ballista on 3, then pop something for extra damage during combat for the kill.
Here's my current list (Which I haven't played in about 3 months):
Hi there,
So I'm building an EDH deck and was curious about an interaction between Legion's Initiative and the new Hour of Revelation from HOD.
If there are 10+ nonland permanents on the field, Hour of Revelation's cost 3 less to cast. If Legion's Initiative is on the field, and I pay RWto exile my creatures in response (avoiding the board wipe and reducing the number of permanents to below 10), since Hour of Revelation is on the stack would the cost change and the spell fizzle out or require more mana? Or would it resolve as normal and not be affected by the "new" number of nonland permanents? I would imagine this same scenario could be set up with any "exile creatures" instant-speed spell or ability.
What do you recommend to replace karn, because it's too expensive
Karn is an integral part of the deck. if you want something to fill his role temporarily, there's always Scour from Existence. Otherwise, you can use it as a flex slot for a larger spread of answers to your meta. Like a mainboard Wurmcoil Engine or a Titan, Relics, or ratchet bombs, whatever you need. I recommend saving up for 2x Karn. I traded HARD for mine and haven't regretted it.
Affinity has been discussed a lot here recently. IMO it's the worst matchup. We don't have any excellent cards in the for it - Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle, Warping Wail are all fine but don't win the game on their own. Ballista is great but it requires a lot of mana. It's a matchup we will simply lose more often than not over the long term. Currently my winrate is about 38%.
Yikes! That makes me feel better - I thought I was just a bad pilot with a bad sideboard. I was looking at the most recent top 8 decklists from the Vegas GP and saw the top tron deck ran 2x Spatial Contortion sideboard. I didn't see any of the matches, but that card may be handy against the smaller threats early game vs. affinity. The deck also only ran a singleton Grafdigger's cage. What do you guys think about that? The one in my sideboard has only seen play once against a Human CoCo deck.
So I was MIA for a bit, but now I'm back! I've been slowly refining my list since the Charlotte Open and my most abysmal match-ups are affinity (have yet to win a single match) and Burn (have won a few due solely to Chalice)
For general Colorless Eldrazi tron, what are our best tools for Affinity and Burn?
Thanks, man! I'm pumped! I just need to study up on the most common decks and figure out sideboard plans. Super random, but do tournaments like that let youi bring your own notepad with side boarding notes, or do they require blank ones?
I'm curious too. I know he doesn't run Ugin MB (if at all), but I can't bring myself not to run him. Top deck Ugin with open mana is too good.
Just a thought on flooding, but a man-land could be the 24th land and give you a mana sink if you are flooded. Its fetch-able with Map, you know what you get and a Mind Stone is nice but it might just draw you into another land late game.
Good point! and yeah, I can see drawing into more land being an issue, but that's with any "draw 1" spell. The first three you listed seem like the best options for the suggestion. I'm a fan of man lands, but have never really used them successfully outside of EDH. And oh my gosh that Mutavault promo is $530!?!?!?!? Dang! The normal ones are only $10ish. Worth considering.
EDIT: Misinterpreted flooding as draw into land. my bad.
I hear ya. I'm playing in the Charlotte Open tomorrow and thinking about cutting out Basilisk Collar entirely and swapping out a land for the 3rd mind stone you mentioned. I really want to make room for Spatial Contortions, since spot removal is where I'm weakest if Tron/Karn isn't on the table. I've always wanted to use Tectonic edge, but that extra mana could hinder its use severely. Play testing will tell.
I ran a titan when I first started play testing. It was always a dead card in hand, and when it did hit the field, it was a "win more" card. I love Ulamog, but I think it should only be used in a more familiar meta.
Wurmcoil tho....Mmmm! Dang good card.
My concern is that we would have potentially 6-7+ high drops - 2x Endbringer, 1x Wurmcoil, 2x Karn, 1x Ugin, 1x All is Dust, or similar. Wurmcoil is similar to Ugin in this build in terms of CMC-effectiveness. If we hit tron turn 3, we can drop him, but have one mana floating (wasted if we don't have a pithing needle or something in hand), whereas Karn and All is Dust is the perfect 7. Ugin is one higher where the absolute soonest would be turn 4 with just land, or turn 3 if we have mind stone. All is Dust and Endbringer are easy to cast with temples on the field, but Wurmcoil is the odd-man out. Not discounting it at all! Just pointing out the issue.
Maaaaaan, now I'm second guessing my own deck!
Out of curiosity, what would you side in/out against Jeskai control and Bant Coco decks?
_____
*EDIT*
The most common mana base I've seeing is 24 lands, 4 Expedition Map, and 2 Mind Stone - a total of 30 cards. Some people run 3 Mind Stone, I've done this myself, for a total of 31.
Has anyone tried keeping 30 total cards, but doing it as 23 lands, 4 Expedition Map, and 3 Mind Stone?
This deck can be prone to land flood and bad top decks in the later game. Having one more Stone to mana ramp early and also be cycleable late seems like a win-win. And keeping it at 30 total leaves room in the main for one more impact card like a 3rd Endbringer, a Wurmcoil Engine, a Batterskull, Ugin, or a Hangarback Walker ...
This same logic is a good argument for running Buried Ruin in the main. If you top deck it late, there is a reasonably good chance you could turn it into a Walking Ballista, etc.
Just some thoughts, opinions welcome.
Edit: I'm going to be in an Invitational Qualifier this weekend, was thinking about running a list like below. I really would love to Top 8 this event.
Whoa! I like that list! Let us know how well Wurmcoil does in the MB. I've sided it in nearly every match up, but it usually replaced an Endbringer. (That card keeps under preforming for me, or maybe I'm just misplaying it). How has the lower Ghost Quarter count been working for you? I've found it most helpful against the mirror match, affinity, and RWx Burn, but not much besides that. Todd Stevens ran 3x Mind Stone is his most recent deck (and probably before), so I think it's a solid choice. I also see Basilisk Collar has been completely removed. How as that been doing?
I may be the minority here, but I don't think either Karn is mandatory. I took out my 2x Karn for a 1x Ugin and a third Chalice MB a while back and haven't missed him one bit. While Baby Karn's draw abilities are helpful, I almost always would rather have an Eldrazi to cast. If I have it in my hand late game, it's kind of a dead card. I will clarify that I've only goldfished with Baby Karn and proxied one game and wasn't impressed. It can definitely find a home in a different colorless deck, but my aggressive style doesn't tend to care for it.
As someone who has been reading the thread sporadically (and hasn't built the deck yet), would you mind elaborating on this? I don't think your wrong, but I'm curious specifically what reasons make Coralhelm weak right now.
Seconded! Been checking in on this thread sporadically and I'm pretty excited to build this deck!
Dumb Question: Why not run any Wastes MB? Since the deck is practically tri-colored, Blood Moon seems like it could cripple half the deck if Mind Stone or Seal of Primordium isn't drawn. It could also be helpful again a Path or FoR. I may be overlooking something super obvious, but I'm just curious. I've been playing E-Tron for awhile and just want to shift gears to something with a littler more versatility and answers.
Also, has anyone tested with All is Dust? Does this card do any good? With even a single Temple and a mana dork, I can see this beingg devastating on Turn 5 again any non-colorless deck.
Also, what the ideal opening or mulligan hand? I've been aiming for Hierarch, 1-2 RG lands, 1-2 Temples, Obligator, BBE/Smasher, and a bolt. is that the right way to go?
I'm curious on opinions about Karn Liberated. I run 2x and it's never really done quite as much as its hype demands. Maybe I'm just not playing it right, but it's always been underwhelming outside of a turn 3 play (and even then, doesn't do much to close out the game).
Questions: Is Karn mandatory in any Tron deck? Specifically E-Tron? I'm considering swapping it for a second Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and a thirdMind Stone mainboard. Thoughts?
Also, I saw a random Skysovereign, Consul Flagship on a list recently as surprise removal. Has anyone tested this? Or is it to absurd? You could potentially pilot with a Ballista on 3, then pop something for extra damage during combat for the kill.
Here's my current list (Which I haven't played in about 3 months):
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
2x Wastes
Planeswalker (3)
2x Karn Liberated
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Dismember
2x Endbringer
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Walking Ballista
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Artifact (11)
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mind Stone
2x Relic of Progenitus
Sorcery (1)
1x All Is Dust
1x All Is Dust
2x Basilisk Collar
1x Batterskull
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Warping Wail
So I'm building an EDH deck and was curious about an interaction between Legion's Initiative and the new Hour of Revelation from HOD.
If there are 10+ nonland permanents on the field, Hour of Revelation's cost 3 less to cast. If Legion's Initiative is on the field, and I pay RWto exile my creatures in response (avoiding the board wipe and reducing the number of permanents to below 10), since Hour of Revelation is on the stack would the cost change and the spell fizzle out or require more mana? Or would it resolve as normal and not be affected by the "new" number of nonland permanents? I would imagine this same scenario could be set up with any "exile creatures" instant-speed spell or ability.
Karn is an integral part of the deck. if you want something to fill his role temporarily, there's always Scour from Existence. Otherwise, you can use it as a flex slot for a larger spread of answers to your meta. Like a mainboard Wurmcoil Engine or a Titan, Relics, or ratchet bombs, whatever you need. I recommend saving up for 2x Karn. I traded HARD for mine and haven't regretted it.
Yikes! That makes me feel better - I thought I was just a bad pilot with a bad sideboard. I was looking at the most recent top 8 decklists from the Vegas GP and saw the top tron deck ran 2x Spatial Contortion sideboard. I didn't see any of the matches, but that card may be handy against the smaller threats early game vs. affinity. The deck also only ran a singleton Grafdigger's cage. What do you guys think about that? The one in my sideboard has only seen play once against a Human CoCo deck.
2 Karn Liberated
Creature (20)
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
3 Endbringer
4 Walking Ballista
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Sorcery (1)
1 All Is Dust
Instant (2)
2 Dismember
Artifact (11)
4 Expedition Map
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Mind Stone
2 Wastes
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
60 Cards
2 All Is Dust
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Warping Wail
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spatial Contortion
For general Colorless Eldrazi tron, what are our best tools for Affinity and Burn?
I'm curious too. I know he doesn't run Ugin MB (if at all), but I can't bring myself not to run him. Top deck Ugin with open mana is too good.
Good point! and yeah, I can see drawing into more land being an issue, but that's with any "draw 1" spell. The first three you listed seem like the best options for the suggestion. I'm a fan of man lands, but have never really used them successfully outside of EDH. And oh my gosh that Mutavault promo is $530!?!?!?!? Dang! The normal ones are only $10ish. Worth considering.
EDIT: Misinterpreted flooding as draw into land. my bad.
I ran a titan when I first started play testing. It was always a dead card in hand, and when it did hit the field, it was a "win more" card. I love Ulamog, but I think it should only be used in a more familiar meta.
Wurmcoil tho....Mmmm! Dang good card.
My concern is that we would have potentially 6-7+ high drops - 2x Endbringer, 1x Wurmcoil, 2x Karn, 1x Ugin, 1x All is Dust, or similar. Wurmcoil is similar to Ugin in this build in terms of CMC-effectiveness. If we hit tron turn 3, we can drop him, but have one mana floating (wasted if we don't have a pithing needle or something in hand), whereas Karn and All is Dust is the perfect 7. Ugin is one higher where the absolute soonest would be turn 4 with just land, or turn 3 if we have mind stone. All is Dust and Endbringer are easy to cast with temples on the field, but Wurmcoil is the odd-man out. Not discounting it at all! Just pointing out the issue.
Maaaaaan, now I'm second guessing my own deck!
Out of curiosity, what would you side in/out against Jeskai control and Bant Coco decks?
_____
*EDIT*
2x Endbringer
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Walking Ballista
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Artifact (10)
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
3x Mind Stone
Planeswalker (3)
2x Karn Liberated
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Dismember
2x Warping Wail
Sorcery (1)
1x All Is Dust
Land (23)
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
2x Wastes
1x All Is Dust
1x Batterskull
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spatial Contortion
2x Surgical Extraction
Revised my list based on your mods. I'll goldfish some today to see how it feels.
Whoa! I like that list! Let us know how well Wurmcoil does in the MB. I've sided it in nearly every match up, but it usually replaced an Endbringer. (That card keeps under preforming for me, or maybe I'm just misplaying it). How has the lower Ghost Quarter count been working for you? I've found it most helpful against the mirror match, affinity, and RWx Burn, but not much besides that. Todd Stevens ran 3x Mind Stone is his most recent deck (and probably before), so I think it's a solid choice. I also see Basilisk Collar has been completely removed. How as that been doing?