True, but it'd probably be in the sideboard for Tron. What's so great about Relic of Progenitus is that it can cycle itself so it can be played maindeck in RG Tron. Scrabbling Claws is sorta a replacement, but it's quite a bit worse.
But that doesn't give reason for Relic of Progenitus to be banned and it isn't a barrier for Graveyard-based decks to get through, but rather Jund and its cards are.
I know it won´t happen. But I really would like to play modern where
Relic of Progenitus was banned.
Relic of Progenitus in itself isn´t broken. But I always feel like it´s a roadblock when trying to play something like Assult loam, Dredgevine or some kind of reanimator. Might be I´ve had to play against to much RGtron but I want to use my graveyard.
I also would like to see the unban of Nactl. Not becaouse I want to play it but since I feel it pushes other decks to be proactive game 1.
Just my thoughts.^^
Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze are still in existence. Relic of Progenitus is only one Graveyard hate card that exists. If it wasn't played, then another one would be. If by your logic, Graveyard hate shouldn't exist in the format at all.
4 KCI is an absolute must have. It is very important to minimize the fizzle rate and with only 2 KCI it is very high. If you attempt to combo on turn 4 and have 3 eggs you will have seen 13 cards. You're only 38.9% to see KCI. KCI isn't necessary to combo since you can still cast Open the Vaults on a great draw or Faith's Reward on one that's not so great, but sooner or later you need the mana in order to have sufficient card draw, the sac outlet adds more card draw as well. In two iterations in this scenario you'll probably get 4 more cards on the second iteration (+1 egg, sacrificing the rest). So you're 38.9% to find your KCI on the first iteration, then 16.5% on your second. Combined this is only a 48.98% chance to find a KCI. If you don't have it by the second iteration your fizzle rate is considerably higher
At 4 KCI this scenario plays out as 63.4% on the first iteration and 30.8% on the second iteration for 74.68%. The failure rate is more than cut in half.
For now I still advocate my manabase. The fetchlands are dual purpose serving as additional white sources as well as extra Ghost Quarters. GQ is very important to the deck not just to thin, and provide extra mana but to shuffle. There's a considerable difference between running 4 of this effect and running 6 of it. Pre Sunrise bannings actually ran 8 of the effect (4 GQ 4 fetch) and would have run more if there wasn't an efficiency tradeoff, since each fetch is 1 less card you can thin. Operating in a world where you can make a million mana off of citadel sacrifices or turn on Mox Opal on turn 1 is nice as an ideal but in practice it's less than optimal.
Running 4 Mox Opals would push this further in the Citadel direction but I remain unconvinced (for now) that you want 4 Opals because they're of very limited value mid combo. You get a 1 shot 2C out of one mid combo and that is it. That said, I do believe the correct number is more than one (which is unfortunate for me as I only own one).
On the Terrarion debate, I don't like it. Prophetic Prism fills that slot much better. It costs 1 more mana but it's more useful early. What matters in this deck is the first three iterations of the combo. After every iteration beyond the first it gets easier and easier to generate mana and you draw more and more cards. If you're going to fizzle it almost always happens within those first three. As such a card needs to be evaluated by what it does during those initial iterations. A card like Terrarion doesn't draw cards before you combo, and it doesn't draw cards mid combo until you have KCI (or use a Reshape on it). The competing cards like Prophetic Prism draw you a card to start which is a big deal. A T2 Prism helps find your pieces while setting up. Terrarion doesn't.
Krark-Clan Ironworks is only a necessity for an increase in the amount of mana so that Open the Vaults and other spells are easier to cast as well as getting more out of Mox Opal and Darksteel Citadel. There is nothing more that it does than sac Ichor Wellspring. It is in the deck to get the most out of blind draws from Chromatic Star and Ichor Wellspring. Plus, it makes it easier to increase the amount of eggs that can be played into the battlefield. But I never have any problem with that when I have access to Mox Opal, even if they are a few. They are great accelerations for you deck to get into position and also easier to cast Silence on my opponent's turn.
Can I just ask about the mathematics in your post? They seem rather inconsistent and unneeded. They don't help your point with having a complete set of Krark-Clan Ironworks, besides your idea of "fizzling." Which, I never had the issue of that since I had better chances of drawing into eggs or into a second sunrise-eqsue spell. Which, I would also rather draw into a Reshape or some sort of protection spell.
You might have better chances of playing Krark-Clan. And I agree that having them are completely needed, but they are extremely excessive and lower the rate of drawing into an egg, which is the best possible play that I can normally get out of the deck.
I have been able to pull off more protection for the spell and haven't drawn into too many lands one after the other. The problem was that I never drew into other cards that would net me a card. I haven't had an issue with getting the combo set up, but it was pulling it off. The deck lost so much consistency when Second Sunrise was banned.
4 Mox Opal is incredibly helpful, but I never used anymore than 3 in a single game at my LGS. I really just kept it at four for the same reason you keep Krark-Clan Ironworks at 4, easier manner to draw into it during a game. Going to 3 would probably make a better play on my part.
The landbase is going to be a complete test on my part and I am willing to keep a record of it, though. Which, it really is going to be for the extra white source so that my landbase can support Open the Vaults and I can find it easier for when I need to forcibly cast Silence.
I am not going to go into Terrarion, though, because I have completely disassociated myself with it and I never looked back on it. It was just a lackluster Ichor Wellspring that only worked with Krark-Clan Ironworks and did nothing on its own. I would be willing to play if it didn't come into play tapped, but you can wish for everything.
Chalice of the Void will counter our spells! I don't think it is good idea.
I read your posts and I'm happy that someone wants to play eggs I will make short explanation about my card choices. I made some changes to list I put on last page.
That is exactly what I was thinking when I was using it. I never actually drew it during any matchups, so I can't really say that it was helpful. I only used it incase.
And having Krark-Clan as a 4-of doesn't seem all that great to me, I would rather have a Ichor Wellspring or an egg, something that nets me a card. At least when I have it at two, I can draw it and I usually do. I never went back on my decision of lowering the number of them and my chances of fizzling have decreased. For me, I just don't play more than two since I drew them to consecutively and they just never did anything in multiples.
I will add in a Gitaxian Probe next week. I could probably post a report of my last LGS standings, though.
I could possibly change the Landbase around to support an extra source in the form of Hallowed Fountain, but that would cause me to have a singleton of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest which aren't as efficient with Open the Vaults and Krark-Clan Ironworks. I also would rather have a better option of drawing into Darksteel Citadel when I have a Mox Opal for a more explosive turn.
I guess that testing for the Fetchlands would be worth it, but I have been very successful at my LGS on multiple occasions, but I am willing to put them into the deck if I have to.
This is exactly like the manabase in the OP. I would change it accordingly once I have done some testing and probably some spreadsheets to fix the manabase in the needed manner if I feel like these are the wrong numbers.
Krark-Clan Ironworks is a great card overall, don't get me wrong. I just always felt like it was almost always an unneeded card in multiples. I never played anymore than 2 in a single game. I would rather have protection for the combo than have excessive mana producers that are a dead card in multiples for me. Having 2 at least ensures that I draw them early enough within the combo and have a chance to have them in my opening hand.
Terrarion was always a lackluster [CARD]Ichor Wellspring[/CARD} unless I drew it early enough. I would rather have a land most of the time and I just feel more comfortable with 16 lands instead of 15. This was going to be the card to cut anyways, since it was the card I sideboarded out most of the time in any occasion.
Silence. I chose this card over Swan Song just for my sake since I stopped most of the needed card before they were able to bother me, either stopping my opponent's turn before I go off when they would either play Disciple of the Vault or just to slow down Affinity early enough so that I didn't have to force myself to go off. And it stops both Shadow of Doubt and Mana Leak in UWR when I am on the draw.
The sideboard is basically an iteration of the Second Sunrise sideboard because it hit most of the corners that I was worried about when I took this deck to my LGS and it also worked against most brews that I might not have seen coming. I took advice on the Chalice of the Void from this page earlier on just to test it out. I haven't gone back on it. It is a great card against Affinity in a god-drawn hand where it does what I need it to perfectly. I am willing to take it out, though, if I have to.
A couple of days a go, I picked up one decklist of Egg's and started to build one for playing in MTGO (only option for me, since in Angola we don't have an Active Magic Community).
I was playing Living End and Soul Sisters, so this deck looks great for me!
For the few testings I have made online, the deck seems really nice, and it will get better, since I stop making some stupid mistakes!
Turn 1 : Fetch + Shock + Thoughtseize = 5 dmg to yourself
I don't recommend this sequence, if your meta is aggro heavy
- Dealing yourself 5 damage to get something like a Lighting bolt is...
I've won too many matches without doing anything significant with really crap decks against suicidal "tiers"...
Terramorphic/Wilds, Bouncelands, and Trilands are not playable in modern.
My quote - "(to some extent) playable".
1 or 2 (or even more in the right deck) can't hurt.
I am not sure you read his, though.
Just note what Thoughtseize is. It is the best hand disruption in the entire format, but it is also information. Learning what your opponent is playing is going to help the player to adjust accordingly to that type of match up. And if the best card you can get wit Thoughtseize is a Lightning Bolt, then you already did something. You stopped the other player from using it also learned what cards are going to be used later on or the type of deck they play. And you learned that the opponent doesn't keep good hands, but that is a joke. It isn't suicide, it is survival. And with cards such as Scooze and DRS, 2 life can be easily adjusted.
Any Fetchlands besides the Zendikar Fetchlands aren't any reliable inside competitive play. They do nothing to actually help you more than the Zendikar Fetchlands. Paying life for consistent mana is going to be the best play most decks can make. If they want the land to come into play tapped, they can, but they have a choice. And they could search up basic lands if needed. It is also better because a turn wasn't wasted on poor decisions.
Zendikar Fetchlands (Arid Mesa,Verdant Catacombs, etc.) cost only 1 life to search up specific dual lands from Ravnica (Sacred Foundry, Overgrown Tomb, etc) to consistently play the cards needed from their hand on the turn they play the fetchland. They are priced that high because they are used that much in just about every deck in the format, give or take a few.
Shards Fetchlands cost an extra mana, which requires them to be used the turn after they come in if it is turn one. This slows down the amount of mana producers and also what the player casts for those early turns. They also only search for basic land, which lowers the chances of getting the consistent colors needed to cast practically every spell in your deck/hand. And lands coming into play tapped is not mana well spent on most occasions when your opponent is beating you down with a Tarmogoyf.
For some time, Jund wasn't the deck to beat. Introduction to Scavenging Ooze boosted its power level, also introducing B/G/X Midrange to the same power level, if it wasn't already.
New decks appeared since, I suspect, you were gone. U/R Delver and Mono Blue Ninja Bear Delver, both different decks, but brought something to the meta.
Eggs is a creatureless deck.
Elspeth Tirel
Koth of the Hammer
Venser, the Soujourner
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Thanks a bunch.
But that doesn't give reason for Relic of Progenitus to be banned and it isn't a barrier for Graveyard-based decks to get through, but rather Jund and its cards are.
Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze are still in existence. Relic of Progenitus is only one Graveyard hate card that exists. If it wasn't played, then another one would be. If by your logic, Graveyard hate shouldn't exist in the format at all.
Krark-Clan Ironworks is only a necessity for an increase in the amount of mana so that Open the Vaults and other spells are easier to cast as well as getting more out of Mox Opal and Darksteel Citadel. There is nothing more that it does than sac Ichor Wellspring. It is in the deck to get the most out of blind draws from Chromatic Star and Ichor Wellspring. Plus, it makes it easier to increase the amount of eggs that can be played into the battlefield. But I never have any problem with that when I have access to Mox Opal, even if they are a few. They are great accelerations for you deck to get into position and also easier to cast Silence on my opponent's turn.
Can I just ask about the mathematics in your post? They seem rather inconsistent and unneeded. They don't help your point with having a complete set of Krark-Clan Ironworks, besides your idea of "fizzling." Which, I never had the issue of that since I had better chances of drawing into eggs or into a second sunrise-eqsue spell. Which, I would also rather draw into a Reshape or some sort of protection spell.
You might have better chances of playing Krark-Clan. And I agree that having them are completely needed, but they are extremely excessive and lower the rate of drawing into an egg, which is the best possible play that I can normally get out of the deck.
I have been able to pull off more protection for the spell and haven't drawn into too many lands one after the other. The problem was that I never drew into other cards that would net me a card. I haven't had an issue with getting the combo set up, but it was pulling it off. The deck lost so much consistency when Second Sunrise was banned.
4 Mox Opal is incredibly helpful, but I never used anymore than 3 in a single game at my LGS. I really just kept it at four for the same reason you keep Krark-Clan Ironworks at 4, easier manner to draw into it during a game. Going to 3 would probably make a better play on my part.
The landbase is going to be a complete test on my part and I am willing to keep a record of it, though. Which, it really is going to be for the extra white source so that my landbase can support Open the Vaults and I can find it easier for when I need to forcibly cast Silence.
I am not going to go into Terrarion, though, because I have completely disassociated myself with it and I never looked back on it. It was just a lackluster Ichor Wellspring that only worked with Krark-Clan Ironworks and did nothing on its own. I would be willing to play if it didn't come into play tapped, but you can wish for everything.
That is exactly what I was thinking when I was using it. I never actually drew it during any matchups, so I can't really say that it was helpful. I only used it incase.
And having Krark-Clan as a 4-of doesn't seem all that great to me, I would rather have a Ichor Wellspring or an egg, something that nets me a card. At least when I have it at two, I can draw it and I usually do. I never went back on my decision of lowering the number of them and my chances of fizzling have decreased. For me, I just don't play more than two since I drew them to consecutively and they just never did anything in multiples.
I will add in a Gitaxian Probe next week. I could probably post a report of my last LGS standings, though.
4 Mox Opal
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Reshape
4 Faith's Reward
3 Open the Vaults
2 Silence
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Darksteel Citadel
7 Island
1 Plains
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Echoing Truth
1 Swan Song
2 Pithing Needle
2 Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Blind Obedience
The relative changes that I have made to the mainboard, from Sodek's List, are:
-2 Krark-Clan Ironworks
-1 Terrarion
+2 Silence
+1 Island
I could possibly change the Landbase around to support an extra source in the form of Hallowed Fountain, but that would cause me to have a singleton of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest which aren't as efficient with Open the Vaults and Krark-Clan Ironworks. I also would rather have a better option of drawing into Darksteel Citadel when I have a Mox Opal for a more explosive turn.
I guess that testing for the Fetchlands would be worth it, but I have been very successful at my LGS on multiple occasions, but I am willing to put them into the deck if I have to.
Changes to the mana base if I do:
-2 Darksteel Citadel
-1 Island
+1 Misty Rainforest
+1 Scalding Tarn
+1 Hallowed Fountain
This is exactly like the manabase in the OP. I would change it accordingly once I have done some testing and probably some spreadsheets to fix the manabase in the needed manner if I feel like these are the wrong numbers.
Krark-Clan Ironworks is a great card overall, don't get me wrong. I just always felt like it was almost always an unneeded card in multiples. I never played anymore than 2 in a single game. I would rather have protection for the combo than have excessive mana producers that are a dead card in multiples for me. Having 2 at least ensures that I draw them early enough within the combo and have a chance to have them in my opening hand.
Terrarion was always a lackluster [CARD]Ichor Wellspring[/CARD} unless I drew it early enough. I would rather have a land most of the time and I just feel more comfortable with 16 lands instead of 15. This was going to be the card to cut anyways, since it was the card I sideboarded out most of the time in any occasion.
Silence. I chose this card over Swan Song just for my sake since I stopped most of the needed card before they were able to bother me, either stopping my opponent's turn before I go off when they would either play Disciple of the Vault or just to slow down Affinity early enough so that I didn't have to force myself to go off. And it stops both Shadow of Doubt and Mana Leak in UWR when I am on the draw.
The sideboard is basically an iteration of the Second Sunrise sideboard because it hit most of the corners that I was worried about when I took this deck to my LGS and it also worked against most brews that I might not have seen coming. I took advice on the Chalice of the Void from this page earlier on just to test it out. I haven't gone back on it. It is a great card against Affinity in a god-drawn hand where it does what I need it to perfectly. I am willing to take it out, though, if I have to.
This deck is actually different from how Poach Eggs play out. And also has a different deck thread.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505790
Not banned Modern card? Lotus Bloom , Phyrexian Revoker and Etched Champion
I am not sure you read his, though.
Just note what Thoughtseize is. It is the best hand disruption in the entire format, but it is also information. Learning what your opponent is playing is going to help the player to adjust accordingly to that type of match up. And if the best card you can get wit Thoughtseize is a Lightning Bolt, then you already did something. You stopped the other player from using it also learned what cards are going to be used later on or the type of deck they play. And you learned that the opponent doesn't keep good hands, but that is a joke. It isn't suicide, it is survival. And with cards such as Scooze and DRS, 2 life can be easily adjusted.
Any Fetchlands besides the Zendikar Fetchlands aren't any reliable inside competitive play. They do nothing to actually help you more than the Zendikar Fetchlands. Paying life for consistent mana is going to be the best play most decks can make. If they want the land to come into play tapped, they can, but they have a choice. And they could search up basic lands if needed. It is also better because a turn wasn't wasted on poor decisions.
Shards Fetchlands cost an extra mana, which requires them to be used the turn after they come in if it is turn one. This slows down the amount of mana producers and also what the player casts for those early turns. They also only search for basic land, which lowers the chances of getting the consistent colors needed to cast practically every spell in your deck/hand. And lands coming into play tapped is not mana well spent on most occasions when your opponent is beating you down with a Tarmogoyf.
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
3 Etched Champion
2 Memnite
1 Master of Etherium
4 Cranical Plating
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
2 Galvanic Blast
1 Steelshaper's Gift
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid
1 Island
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spellskite
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Torpor Orb
1 Master of Etherium
1 Etched Champion
1 Wear//Tear
1 Whipflare
1 Sword of War and Peace
This is the deck I plan to take to a Win-A-Box tournament later today.
Theros introduced new cards to Merfolk. (Thassa, God of the Sea and Master of Waves)
New decks appeared since, I suspect, you were gone. U/R Delver and Mono Blue Ninja Bear Delver, both different decks, but brought something to the meta.