Hey guys! Just butting in real quick to say hi and that I'm back I guess. Khans looks like a great set and for me, it's breathing life back into the game. So here I am!
Eventually I'll catch up on the discussion and start doing some testing of my own, but I'm pretty out of touch with the Modern format at the moment. My decklists are still from several months ago. Anyway, carry on good sirs.
With the near perfect manabases and new charms, has anyone considered a Modern Lucky Charms brew? Maybe like 5c Charms. Game plan is to charm your opponent into submission
In a format like Modern, Veil can't be considered anything more than icing on the cake because of its mana costs. But, it does provide a great way to lock in a victory with a Superfriends build. A deck that would play Veil is already built to stick walkers and delay the game until they're online. Racing to get walkers down and Veil out ASAP is not the way to utilize the card. Once you've halted the aggro, disrupted their combo, or outplayed their control, you play Veil to put on dat fast clock as you tick your walkers up to victory. I'd run it as a 2-of in Planeswalker control, similar to any other high cost wincon you would run in a midrange or control deck. It's also worthy to note that it's a high risk, high reward type of card. If you have walkers out it's great, and if you don't well it hurts like 2 damage per turn. There are safer wincons decks could run such as Thundermaw Hellkite or Baneslayer Angel or Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull, etc. I think it could really shine in the right build.
I'd been taking a break from Magic for awhile but looking at the new Nissa got me thinking. We already have control decks like UWR that are able to win past turn 4 why not try the same approach when considering Nissa? I've really only given thought to a RUG shell, but with removal like bolt/electrolyze and counters like Snare, Remand, Leak, Cryptic, why not also play Nissa, Life from the Loam and a few ramp spells? With fetches/shocks it's not too hard to run her in 3 color and still be able to fully utilize her +1, and Loam gives us some insurance on our land-creatures.
I'm thinking BUG and Bant could also be viable shells, but I worry about the lack of early removal in Bant. BUG could be nice with a hand disruption suite (including Raven's Crime+Loam), Abrupt Decay, etc.
Really you think 6 cost is too much? I just went 5-1 at a local 50 person, running wurmcoil engine. 5/5 persist, fly, Vigilance bringing back your spells right when your running out seems relevant, although I guess I'm trying to determine just how relevant.
I'll give you, 3 white cost is not easy it will require likely an extra 2 glacial fortress and all 4 Arid mesa to be reliable.
It was probably Wurmcoil Engine that did the work for you. There's no color constraint on it and it's one of the biggest playable bombs in Modern. The only 'reliable' answers to it are a counterspell or a Path. If I had to compare the two, Wurmcoil is infinitely better than Twilight Shepherd.
Also the Shepherd does not bring your spells back. She says any card that was put into the graveyard from the battlefield this turn. That limits it to permanents...that died on the turn she came into play.
Dear god no. 6 mana is too much. 3 white is too much. Her ETB ability is terrible, as it doesn't synergize with the deck at all. Viable beatsticks are found in the form of things like Thundermaw Hellkite and Baneslayer Angel. Find something on par with those.
I was wondering what you guys think about decks replacing Geist now that Anger of the Gods is in every sideboard? I've been running the following creature suite to some success: 4x Brimaz, King of Oreskos, 3x Restoration Angel, 4x Snapcaster Mage, 3x Vendilion Clique, but I'm also not sure that the geisty/aggro plan is better than the kiki-jiki plan. Anyone have any experience playing that build?
I'm still not sold on Brimaz as a contender for the 3 slot. In terms of raw damage and neat combat tricks, Geist is about as good as it gets. Downgrading him to something mediocre seems like a bad idea, so if I had to keep some creature in the 3 slot, I would probably use Kitchen Finks. A deck like UWR control would have to 2 for 1 itself every time to get rid of it, unless they wanted to use Path or Anger (in which case by all means, please do). And even after that you've still gained 2 life which helps you out in the grind. It also allows you to be greedier with your fetching early in the game. Sure, you don't have the interaction that Pod would have with things like Gavony and Eternal Witness to make full use of the card, but Finks is hardly your win condition.
With that in mind, you need something to replace Geist as a win condition, and I think Thundermaw Hellkite does the job nicely. Clearing out pesky Souls and Bitterblossom tokens is great value. And putting them on a 2-3 turn clock is quite strong.
Has anyone considered 1or two sword of fire and ice? It can draw cards for us and deal extra dmg. Furthermore it can make Geist itself and snapcaster a real threat.
I'd play Feast and Famine over Fire and Ice if I were to run swords. The stuff you often find on the other side of the field blocking you is either Green or Black, and having untapped mana for their turn is huge. You swing with Colonnade and still have full mana for Cryptic and stuff. Better than a card +2 dmg.
I feel like Geist has been at a disadvantage in this meta for a long time now simply because it's so difficult to attack into things like Goyf, Finks, and Ooze. However, he is so good at closing games and putting on pressure, he is ironically one of the best threats to have in such a removal heavy format. We'll debate whether or not he's relevant probably forever, but I bet he saw a decent amount of play during the GP, just not enough to squeeze into top 16.
With that in mind, if he's not the go-to choice for UWR decks, he might need to be moved to the sideboard after game 1 or brought in for games 2 and 3. We know his strengths and weaknesses; if people really want to play Geist, we have to put him in when he's got the advantage and pull him out otherwise.
With that in mind, is it safer to play a list with Resto/Kiki? The combo win can happen whether you're ahead or behind, and it's kinda difficult to come back with the typical Geist midrange deck when you're behind.
I completely agree with you and that's also the same reason I recently tested playing only 2 Geist. As we shouldn't cast it in turn 3 anymore he became a mid/late game finisher for me. My results were great and as I mentionend it in my tournament report (on the previous pages) he accelerated my clock like 2-3 times though it didn't feel necessary besides once. From my point of view he isn't necessary anymore as we can win matches without him, yet slower.
The same counts for Blade Splicer, but in late game GoST should be in advantage.
Regarding UWR Kiki it shares most of its cards with our UWR Midrange lists, but the few differences make a huge impact as UWR Kiki can win out of nowhere whereas UWR Midrange has to fight long grindy games just like UWR Control. It would be interesting to know how many of the 17 UWR decks on day 2 played Geist, but I guess UWR control was more dominant. Additionally I don't know whether McLaren's deck was counted as the lone UWR Twin deck on day 2 or as a further UWR Control deck. McLaren probably caught many people on surprise as they expected him to play UWR Control though UWR Kiki is absolutely competitive now.
However I'm not sold yet on these UWR Kiki lists after one result, but they are definitely interesting. Still I'll give UWR Flash a try, the slightly more aggressive UWR control deck.
That's an interesting option for Geist. I mean unless there's a better line of play I usually try and get him down as early as possible but now that you mention it, unless you know you can clear a path for him there's no reason to tap out turn 3. If I were to drop to 2 I'd probably take out my Elspeths as well; turn 3 Geist into turn 4 Elspeth was kinda the game plan there. What did you replace the 2 spots with? Restos? Spell Snare? More Cryptics?
I'm considering going -2 Geist, -2 Elspeth, +2 Resto +1 Mana Leak +1 Sphinx's Revelation to my current list.
Despite the results the UWR Kiki list put up I feel like UWR flash is still better. There's just something awesome about playing your stuff on their turn hahah. Although, Voice of Resurgence is a huge problem for Flash. I dunno. I love the fact that there are so many viable flavors but figuring out which one is the best is nearly impossible.
I feel like Geist has been at a disadvantage in this meta for a long time now simply because it's so difficult to attack into things like Goyf, Finks, and Ooze. However, he is so good at closing games and putting on pressure, he is ironically one of the best threats to have in such a removal heavy format. We'll debate whether or not he's relevant probably forever, but I bet he saw a decent amount of play during the GP, just not enough to squeeze into top 16.
With that in mind, if he's not the go-to choice for UWR decks, he might need to be moved to the sideboard after game 1 or brought in for games 2 and 3. We know his strengths and weaknesses; if people really want to play Geist, we have to put him in when he's got the advantage and pull him out otherwise.
With that in mind, is it safer to play a list with Resto/Kiki? The combo win can happen whether you're ahead or behind, and it's kinda difficult to come back with the typical Geist midrange deck when you're behind.
Not sure if this was mentioned but this falls into the category of "knowing/preparing for the meta". Not everyone is able to fully grasp the way a deck plays simply by looking at a decklist or playtesting against it. I'm definitely in this group of people, and I've found that sometimes, in order to understand the stuff I'll be playing against, I need to play with the deck itself to really get a feel for it. I think this has the added benefit of teaching you about a wider variety of plays the deck can make. Instead of being on the receiving end of a single line of play, you consider multiple lines and pick one to use. The latter situation feels like getting a more comprehensive look at a deck.
This might be obvious to most people but I felt like pointing it out.
Snaps, Cliques, Resto (I understand why people leave her out, but the 4 toughness in the current meta is huge and so much value when you blink your own snappy or clique, and..... Thundermaw Hellkite!!!
I know tapping out to play a flyer seems dangerous, but timed properly it is truly a beat down all-star...
Its better than tapping 5 for a colonnade (which is suspectable to getting pathed etc which means you also lose a land, faster than Batterskull and doesnt die to ancient grudge etc, (and since your playing tempo/control this really helps you 'shift gears' when you want to really put the heat on), it almost guarantees to hit, and against soul sisters or pesky birds waiting to be podded away it is phenomonal...
Not to mention it won the 2013 World Champs, and also GP Prague earlier this year...
Long time since I've dropped by here but yes, Thundermaw is a beast and I love him so much that I play 2 in the main. Kinda clunky but when almost everyone in my meta plays Jund/Junk/Pod he's a house.
Skimmed the past couple pages, but I figured I'd ask. Has anything really changed with the typical build for this deck? I don't see anyone excitedly discussing new tech so I'm assuming UWR is still the deck it was around the time of DRS ban, obviously tweaked on a meta-to-meta basis.
(Also, in case anyone was curious, the list in my sig is still my current list.)
Have you not heard how many pre-registered players there are for this weekend?
I have. Biggest event ever as far as I heard. But it wasn't this bad for Legacy when GP Madrid happened back in the day. Not even close. And that event was big enough that it caused SCG to start holding Legacy events. So I really don't get it. Did a lot of these players just get into Modern? That's the only explanation that makes sense of why the prices are so high.
Maybe I'm offbase here, but with DRS out, Snapcaster became a little more potent, as evidenced by his price increase. And now if Snapcaster is more popular/effective in this new meta, it stands to reason that blue would be played more, which could explain the recent jump in Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest prices. All of the fetches are high, to be sure, but the blue ones are way over the top from where they started.
I think Magic in general is getting more popular. I saw a marked increase in attendance at pre/release events at my LGS starting with Innistrad and growing even more with RTR. I see a lot of new players getting into Standard, and I would assume that some number of them might also be interested in Modern. So an increase in demand for Modern staples from these new players and the beginning of Modern season seems appropriate, and thus a price spike. That or maybe players now are willing to pay more for cards than players were in the past.
Glad you found some success! Would up the visionary count back to 4 though. She's super OP in this build. How did Scryb perform?
I'll prolly remove a dork for the 4th visionary.
Scryb Ranger is INSANE! Can't combo off? No problem, tap archdruid for Xx green then untap and repeat to hardcast Behemoth. She also makes a great blocker + helps me not fizzle during combo.... I want a foil playset IRL
So you think 3 is the right number? I guess that makes sense. It's not an elf so you don't want to see it that often; only when you have a stable board position and can leverage the mana it can create with archdruid. I think if I saw an opener with 2 Scryb's in it I'd probably mulligan though :/.
Eventually I'll catch up on the discussion and start doing some testing of my own, but I'm pretty out of touch with the Modern format at the moment. My decklists are still from several months ago. Anyway, carry on good sirs.
Anyone else have non-meta brews stewing in the back of their heads yet?
I'm thinking BUG and Bant could also be viable shells, but I worry about the lack of early removal in Bant. BUG could be nice with a hand disruption suite (including Raven's Crime+Loam), Abrupt Decay, etc.
It was probably Wurmcoil Engine that did the work for you. There's no color constraint on it and it's one of the biggest playable bombs in Modern. The only 'reliable' answers to it are a counterspell or a Path. If I had to compare the two, Wurmcoil is infinitely better than Twilight Shepherd.
Also the Shepherd does not bring your spells back. She says any card that was put into the graveyard from the battlefield this turn. That limits it to permanents...that died on the turn she came into play.
Dear god no. 6 mana is too much. 3 white is too much. Her ETB ability is terrible, as it doesn't synergize with the deck at all. Viable beatsticks are found in the form of things like Thundermaw Hellkite and Baneslayer Angel. Find something on par with those.
I'm still not sold on Brimaz as a contender for the 3 slot. In terms of raw damage and neat combat tricks, Geist is about as good as it gets. Downgrading him to something mediocre seems like a bad idea, so if I had to keep some creature in the 3 slot, I would probably use Kitchen Finks. A deck like UWR control would have to 2 for 1 itself every time to get rid of it, unless they wanted to use Path or Anger (in which case by all means, please do). And even after that you've still gained 2 life which helps you out in the grind. It also allows you to be greedier with your fetching early in the game. Sure, you don't have the interaction that Pod would have with things like Gavony and Eternal Witness to make full use of the card, but Finks is hardly your win condition.
With that in mind, you need something to replace Geist as a win condition, and I think Thundermaw Hellkite does the job nicely. Clearing out pesky Souls and Bitterblossom tokens is great value. And putting them on a 2-3 turn clock is quite strong.
I'd play Feast and Famine over Fire and Ice if I were to run swords. The stuff you often find on the other side of the field blocking you is either Green or Black, and having untapped mana for their turn is huge. You swing with Colonnade and still have full mana for Cryptic and stuff. Better than a card +2 dmg.
You wont find swords in a midrange build though.
That's an interesting option for Geist. I mean unless there's a better line of play I usually try and get him down as early as possible but now that you mention it, unless you know you can clear a path for him there's no reason to tap out turn 3. If I were to drop to 2 I'd probably take out my Elspeths as well; turn 3 Geist into turn 4 Elspeth was kinda the game plan there. What did you replace the 2 spots with? Restos? Spell Snare? More Cryptics?
I'm considering going -2 Geist, -2 Elspeth, +2 Resto +1 Mana Leak +1 Sphinx's Revelation to my current list.
Despite the results the UWR Kiki list put up I feel like UWR flash is still better. There's just something awesome about playing your stuff on their turn hahah. Although, Voice of Resurgence is a huge problem for Flash. I dunno. I love the fact that there are so many viable flavors but figuring out which one is the best is nearly impossible.
With that in mind, if he's not the go-to choice for UWR decks, he might need to be moved to the sideboard after game 1 or brought in for games 2 and 3. We know his strengths and weaknesses; if people really want to play Geist, we have to put him in when he's got the advantage and pull him out otherwise.
With that in mind, is it safer to play a list with Resto/Kiki? The combo win can happen whether you're ahead or behind, and it's kinda difficult to come back with the typical Geist midrange deck when you're behind.
This might be obvious to most people but I felt like pointing it out.
Long time since I've dropped by here but yes, Thundermaw is a beast and I love him so much that I play 2 in the main. Kinda clunky but when almost everyone in my meta plays Jund/Junk/Pod he's a house.
Skimmed the past couple pages, but I figured I'd ask. Has anything really changed with the typical build for this deck? I don't see anyone excitedly discussing new tech so I'm assuming UWR is still the deck it was around the time of DRS ban, obviously tweaked on a meta-to-meta basis.
(Also, in case anyone was curious, the list in my sig is still my current list.)
Maybe I'm offbase here, but with DRS out, Snapcaster became a little more potent, as evidenced by his price increase. And now if Snapcaster is more popular/effective in this new meta, it stands to reason that blue would be played more, which could explain the recent jump in Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest prices. All of the fetches are high, to be sure, but the blue ones are way over the top from where they started.
I think Magic in general is getting more popular. I saw a marked increase in attendance at pre/release events at my LGS starting with Innistrad and growing even more with RTR. I see a lot of new players getting into Standard, and I would assume that some number of them might also be interested in Modern. So an increase in demand for Modern staples from these new players and the beginning of Modern season seems appropriate, and thus a price spike. That or maybe players now are willing to pay more for cards than players were in the past.
Just my two pennies.
So you think 3 is the right number? I guess that makes sense. It's not an elf so you don't want to see it that often; only when you have a stable board position and can leverage the mana it can create with archdruid. I think if I saw an opener with 2 Scryb's in it I'd probably mulligan though :/.