Can someone briefly describe how Ancestral Visions was OP enough to ban? I wasn't playing Modern when it was not banned (if it ever was). Seems to me that it falls well within the "Turn 4" format Wiz is pushing; without manipulating time counters it gets cast at the earliest turn 5. Granted, it'll probably be in a control shell, guaranteeing that you'll most likely see turn 5. But like, why try to abuse it with Cascade when you could just play Living End?
Yea, I did not like the Merfolk matchup in the event I played in yesterday. Even with Thundermaw, it's almost impossible to race them unless you see just about every piece of removal you have, as I found out game 1. Game 2 sees 2 Master of Waves, Thassa, and Kira, among other goodies. I managed to kill everything but was left in topdeck mode, and when he drew Silvergill -> Lord, 2 life and a Mana Leak was not enough to get there.
Suddenly, Pyroclasm is not such an attractive board wipe. Luckily, I managed to go 3-1 that night, and took 3rd, because Merfolk guy was tied with me. Saw and beat Melira Pod and Mono-U Delver 2-0 each. Round 2 was a bye.
I am curious, what makes fringe decks tough versus this deck?
Maybe I just haven't played against them enough and I lack the necessary skill, but it seems to me that UWR thrives against fair decks. It runs super efficient removal, super efficient beaters, and strives to slowly outvalue the opponent. A lot of fringe decks have funky combos. Take the Amulet of Vigor deck for example, if they get their combo off Turn 2 and they're on the play, you're staring down a Turn 2 Primeval Titan and it's GG unless you have path. Even then, you're 2 lands behind.
Idk, slowing them down via Bolt/Helix/Remand every turn while putting on Geist pressure is how I play the deck, and if they're going to vomit their hand onto the field or generate a ton of mana quickly and drop a huge threat, then you can't really do that.
That seems pretty accurate. Just watch out if jund has double B on the table, a liliana might be coming down next turn, dont play geist unless you have a bolt or an electrolyze to get liliana.
Regarding match ups, i dont think there are any real BAD ones. I suppose jund is the one i ant to faceless, since its really op draw dependant, mmm maybe the mirror too, its really a "who can get a geist online first" game.
Boggles would be the worst, if that deck even exists anymore.
I agree with Rhinne, UWR doesn't get blown out by many decks, but I would go so far as to say that depending on how you've tweaked your own list, some matchups might be harder than others. Right now, the way I have mine with 2 Elspeth and 2 Thundermaw main means I'm going to suffer against combo (and maybe some hyper aggro) lists, but I'm going to walk all over midrangey decks like Jund and Junk. Depending on what you expect to see in your meta, you should adjust your mainboard as well as sideboard. I'm expecting to see mostly midrange on Wednesday, so that's my reasoning for the above, but if I was expecting to see tons of combo, Elspeth wouldn't even make it into my sideboard.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
Sorry, I was talking more about the new leonin than splicer, but splicer just doesn't have the same clock would be my main problem...
Oh gotcha. Yea, the clock isn't the same, but if you put splicer in the proper shell the clock would be fine. He really doesn't fit in this deck.
The cat dude has 4 toughness though, and that's magical in Modern. No hexproof is definitely a problem, but he dodges bolt and bolt-esque spells, which means your opponent is going to waste a Path/Abrupt Decay or 2-for-1 themselves to kill it. To be honest I don't think he fits in this shell either; like Geist and Splicer, he needs to be built around. Snapcaster and Goyf really stand alone in the "I can put this card in any deck that runs its colors" category.
As for the geist vs splicer debate, I like geist. Splicer takes a little more work to make as consitently powerful as geist and that swingness tends me to just want geist.
No...just no...no hexproof means he's gone...it would only work in a control variant, not a midrange variety...
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is so not relevant in this debate. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
I am testing 2 remand, 1 spell snare, one sphinx's revelation and 3 helix instead of 3 rmd and 4 helix. I'll report about it
Brimaz is nice but, he has no flash and the tokens are very weak without no push like honor of the pure etc. They also do not fly. I would still prefer Clique.
I am relatively new to this thread but did you consider Runechanter's Pike for making clique and snapcaster a monster?
Runechanter's came up today when my friend and I were discussing weird tech for UWR. We came to the conclusion that it was nuts mid to late game but it's absolute crap early. If anything, this deck needs help being aggressive early and runechanter's will not get you there.
As far as Brimaz goes, I wasn't thinking it'd be a replacement for Clique. It would replace Geist. It's not as bursty as Geist in damage, but it does end up swinging for 4 with vigilance. And the token might even stay around. And what's more annoying than dealing with tokens without board wipes (which hardly any deck in Modern mainboards)? I do agree that it would probably fit better in a token shell.
I love spell snare. I dont think you should play it over remand but 2-3 catches a lot of people off guard
Edit: forget it, I thought we were talking about Spell Pierce lol.
I settled on dropping Resto altogether and going with 2 Thundermaw main, with 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Cryptic count went down to 2 as well. I'm still only sitting on 2 Cliques which I might bump up to 3 somehow. The deck feels more stable against midrange, with reliable, difficult to deal with cards like Elspeth and Geist and aggressive burst with Thundermaws. The matchup against aggro probably dropped off considerably, and I will have to prepare my board for that I think.
and there's when eiganjo castle comes to be cool. i will never take it out from my shell as long as i run clique and geist.
Yestaerday i try to take out 2x Ajani for a 2x restoration angel. i am not sold AT ALL on her since against Jund it died badly both times i played it. I prefer Ajani so he will come back.
I'd like to play Leak too because it's so cool against Lily and Souls, plus helps a lot against that t3 Karn or Coil, but i don't wanna take snare out...
I'm gonna get to do some testing today, and I'm running a list very close to Hrvatska's list from Prague. Got 2x Resto 2x Clique instead of 1x, 3x, and Thundermaw finally makes an appearance as well, first time for me. Also I think I'm 4x Remand 3x Helix instead of the other way around. I'll see how I like it.
Anyone see that card Brimaz from Born of the Gods? He's got that magical 4 toughness and 3 cmc, and he brings in a buddy when attacking or blocking. Might be worth testing?
What do people think about lightning angel in this deck? Has anyone tried her?
Advantages: 4 toughness, and she holds off weenies while being a threat in the air. Great against delver and vendilion clique. Also great for nostalgia!
I think the general consensus is that she's very underwhelming. She got some exposure in a GP(?) list some number of months ago but I don't think she made that big of a splash. Resto is easier on the colors and comes in as a surprise, saving a dude or getting extra value from Snappy. The Flash on her is also nice as you can keep mana open for counters or whatever.
To be fair those games I played were all game 1's, no boarding. And while I didn't run any EE's I did have 2 Supreme Verdicts main just to see how they would fit.
Maybe just the preboard matchup is bad or something, idk lol.
Yeah. That's what I was thinking. I'm going to try running 0 GY hate except 2x Surgical Extractions.
I run 3 Engineered Explosives in the side. That really helps against Goyf and Bob as well. I have no issues using Bolt/Helix to hit DRS.
I played a few games against Junk last week and just got extremely fed up with my deck. Maybe it's a little off balance after I made some tweaks, but it's still running all the core pieces and it felt absolutely hopeless. Game after game he's drawing threat after threat and when we're both in topdeck mode (cause I've dealt with everything else) he rips Garruk Relentless. I draw a land, of course. The board just gets clogged up with Souls and Garruk tokens and he Paths my Restos and Colonnades.
There's been a lot of talk about how to deal with Jund lately and at least they don't F around with Souls and Garruk; tokens (backed up by the standard GB package) are a nightmare. It's gotten to the point where I have to ask myself, why run anything other than GBx in this meta?
Don't answer that question I know the deck can be beat I'm just frustrated.
My major problem is that there is no real threat besides Thundermaw.
I dont really like Figure because of the mana requirement and it just gets killed in response to you leveling him up and just get timewalked.
I like Boros Reckoner. I would like to see more 5 drops but then Bob becomes a liability. Like I think either Baneslayer Angel, or Blood Baron of Vizkopa are needed in the deck as well. Most likely Blood Baron considering nothing kills it in modern. I REALLY like Ajani. Maybe the deck could be more of a planewalker deck, we get Liliana, Ajani, Sorin Lord of Innastrad, Elspeth Knight Errant, even Chandra Pryromaster?
Just another way of taking the deck. The creatures could just be Boros Reckoner, maybe Blood Baron or Baneslayer, or Thundermaw, and having a huge removal suite, and discard spells.
Just an idea. what do you think?
All of the midrange slices bring a unique approach to the game, so you have to ask yourself why you would run Dega over something like UWR or Junk or Jund. RW gives you access to the most efficient removal in the format, and B gives you access to discard; so those should be the focus of the deck. We're already behind just choosing to play Dega over Jund, so Confidant must be in the deck. It needs his card advantage to win, so you need to build around him. Loading the deck up with 4 cmc Elspeth, Chandra, and 5 cmc Baneslayer and Bloodbaron does not work with Dark Confidant. Bloodbaron and Confidant have an anti-synergy aside from the cmc as well.
The thing about Figure is that he wins the game by himself. Yes you have to invest in him, but if you're spending mana at end of turn to pump him, you are gaining pseudo card advantage. You get to hold more cards in your hand, but you force your opponent to use cards to deal with Figure. And hey, if you made them tap out on their turn to deal with your pump trigger that's great! You can play whatever you want without worrying about responses.
I think he can do fine without having to resort to Aristocrats, although they do synergize quite well. But you definitely have a point about not needing Kiki-Resto. Here's my take on Dega, just to provide some variety. I like Reckoner because he's one of the few creatures that trades with Goyf, and since we don't have green...I'm not sure you need DRS either.
The Sowing Salt seems a little out of place, though. It's possible I want Baneslayer Angel/Stormbreath Dragon instead, but I don't own one of either.
Seems solid. You aren't going to miss Cryptic? Also you might want to try dropping 1 Helix and pushing your Remands up to 4. Nothing like Time Walking someone and hitting your land drops.
Suddenly, Pyroclasm is not such an attractive board wipe. Luckily, I managed to go 3-1 that night, and took 3rd, because Merfolk guy was tied with me. Saw and beat Melira Pod and Mono-U Delver 2-0 each. Round 2 was a bye.
Maybe I just haven't played against them enough and I lack the necessary skill, but it seems to me that UWR thrives against fair decks. It runs super efficient removal, super efficient beaters, and strives to slowly outvalue the opponent. A lot of fringe decks have funky combos. Take the Amulet of Vigor deck for example, if they get their combo off Turn 2 and they're on the play, you're staring down a Turn 2 Primeval Titan and it's GG unless you have path. Even then, you're 2 lands behind.
Idk, slowing them down via Bolt/Helix/Remand every turn while putting on Geist pressure is how I play the deck, and if they're going to vomit their hand onto the field or generate a ton of mana quickly and drop a huge threat, then you can't really do that.
Maybe other people have other opinions.
I agree with Rhinne, UWR doesn't get blown out by many decks, but I would go so far as to say that depending on how you've tweaked your own list, some matchups might be harder than others. Right now, the way I have mine with 2 Elspeth and 2 Thundermaw main means I'm going to suffer against combo (and maybe some hyper aggro) lists, but I'm going to walk all over midrangey decks like Jund and Junk. Depending on what you expect to see in your meta, you should adjust your mainboard as well as sideboard. I'm expecting to see mostly midrange on Wednesday, so that's my reasoning for the above, but if I was expecting to see tons of combo, Elspeth wouldn't even make it into my sideboard.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
Oh gotcha. Yea, the clock isn't the same, but if you put splicer in the proper shell the clock would be fine. He really doesn't fit in this deck.
The cat dude has 4 toughness though, and that's magical in Modern. No hexproof is definitely a problem, but he dodges bolt and bolt-esque spells, which means your opponent is going to waste a Path/Abrupt Decay or 2-for-1 themselves to kill it. To be honest I don't think he fits in this shell either; like Geist and Splicer, he needs to be built around. Snapcaster and Goyf really stand alone in the "I can put this card in any deck that runs its colors" category.
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is so not relevant in this debate. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
Runechanter's came up today when my friend and I were discussing weird tech for UWR. We came to the conclusion that it was nuts mid to late game but it's absolute crap early. If anything, this deck needs help being aggressive early and runechanter's will not get you there.
As far as Brimaz goes, I wasn't thinking it'd be a replacement for Clique. It would replace Geist. It's not as bursty as Geist in damage, but it does end up swinging for 4 with vigilance. And the token might even stay around. And what's more annoying than dealing with tokens without board wipes (which hardly any deck in Modern mainboards)? I do agree that it would probably fit better in a token shell.
Edit: forget it, I thought we were talking about Spell Pierce lol.
I settled on dropping Resto altogether and going with 2 Thundermaw main, with 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Cryptic count went down to 2 as well. I'm still only sitting on 2 Cliques which I might bump up to 3 somehow. The deck feels more stable against midrange, with reliable, difficult to deal with cards like Elspeth and Geist and aggressive burst with Thundermaws. The matchup against aggro probably dropped off considerably, and I will have to prepare my board for that I think.
I'm gonna get to do some testing today, and I'm running a list very close to Hrvatska's list from Prague. Got 2x Resto 2x Clique instead of 1x, 3x, and Thundermaw finally makes an appearance as well, first time for me. Also I think I'm 4x Remand 3x Helix instead of the other way around. I'll see how I like it.
Anyone see that card Brimaz from Born of the Gods? He's got that magical 4 toughness and 3 cmc, and he brings in a buddy when attacking or blocking. Might be worth testing?
I think the general consensus is that she's very underwhelming. She got some exposure in a GP(?) list some number of months ago but I don't think she made that big of a splash. Resto is easier on the colors and comes in as a surprise, saving a dude or getting extra value from Snappy. The Flash on her is also nice as you can keep mana open for counters or whatever.
To be fair those games I played were all game 1's, no boarding. And while I didn't run any EE's I did have 2 Supreme Verdicts main just to see how they would fit.
Maybe just the preboard matchup is bad or something, idk lol.
I played a few games against Junk last week and just got extremely fed up with my deck. Maybe it's a little off balance after I made some tweaks, but it's still running all the core pieces and it felt absolutely hopeless. Game after game he's drawing threat after threat and when we're both in topdeck mode (cause I've dealt with everything else) he rips Garruk Relentless. I draw a land, of course. The board just gets clogged up with Souls and Garruk tokens and he Paths my Restos and Colonnades.
There's been a lot of talk about how to deal with Jund lately and at least they don't F around with Souls and Garruk; tokens (backed up by the standard GB package) are a nightmare. It's gotten to the point where I have to ask myself, why run anything other than GBx in this meta?
Don't answer that question I know the deck can be beat I'm just frustrated.
All of the midrange slices bring a unique approach to the game, so you have to ask yourself why you would run Dega over something like UWR or Junk or Jund. RW gives you access to the most efficient removal in the format, and B gives you access to discard; so those should be the focus of the deck. We're already behind just choosing to play Dega over Jund, so Confidant must be in the deck. It needs his card advantage to win, so you need to build around him. Loading the deck up with 4 cmc Elspeth, Chandra, and 5 cmc Baneslayer and Bloodbaron does not work with Dark Confidant. Bloodbaron and Confidant have an anti-synergy aside from the cmc as well.
The thing about Figure is that he wins the game by himself. Yes you have to invest in him, but if you're spending mana at end of turn to pump him, you are gaining pseudo card advantage. You get to hold more cards in your hand, but you force your opponent to use cards to deal with Figure. And hey, if you made them tap out on their turn to deal with your pump trigger that's great! You can play whatever you want without worrying about responses.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Godless Shrine
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Dark Confidant
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Spells(17):
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ajani Vengeant
Seems solid. You aren't going to miss Cryptic? Also you might want to try dropping 1 Helix and pushing your Remands up to 4. Nothing like Time Walking someone and hitting your land drops.