Without counters this deck automatically looses to combo. Counter spells also play into the "you can't do anything" theme. This deck should definitley be u/w instead of w/r
Here's my version of the deck with a secondary win con, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind / Curiosity. When you bring back niv, you attach Curiosity to him and swing which lets you draw your whole deck while dealing 1 damage per draw.
Knight of the Reliquary is just too good to not run in a bant deck. He can hold his own and be a threat for your opponent before you cast aethermage. Maybe even Kitchen Finks to protect yourself and take a few hits. For win cons, I don't see anything better than just 2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. And like megatog said, rune snag over leak. That being said, I don't like the singleton snapcasters, rewinds or shamans. I'd make the rewind into another snag and replace the other two with something like finks or knight.
Personally, I'm playing a list I found on youtube created by BDecandio7. He talks through his card/sideboard choices and also has videos up for a daily and a ptq, top 8'ing the ptq with it. Affinity is a pretty good matchup for his setup, and it greatly revolved around him hitting a Darkblast, so thats a meta call, he runs 1 main w/ 1 sideboard.
The bad thing about this combo is that many other combos have lower overall casting costs or better curves. E.g.:
Twin: 3 -> 4 or 5
Hive Mind: 6 -> 0
Reanimator: 1 -> 2 and the reanimated creature wins by itself, instead of requiring Curiosity
Niv is 6 -> 1 or 3.
[CARD]
Swans of Bryn Argoll[/CARD] can be casted prior to Niv, and has a secondary combo with Seismic Assault
Yeah I know, that's why I have Gitaxian Probe to ideally do that the same turn. The positive difference between this deck and the standard reanimator deck is that with reanimator you have to hold Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and a discard spell until you draw a Goryo's Vengeance to do it all together. With this deck, you just toss Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind asap with a draw/discard spell and reanimate him whenever you draw Goryo and Curiosity. The two combos basically require the same amount of cards at the end of the day, just different ways of doing it. The Footsteps of the Goryo is also cheaper to cast than the Makeshift Mannequin that most reanimator decks run because you don't necessarily need to attack with Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind to win.
Idk about the swans combo, I feel like it would make the deck too cluttered.
The weaknesses of this deck are counters and obviously removal. It could be hard to get a electrode or pyromancer to stick a turn if you don't have a way of giving them haste. The strong point of the deck is the fact that there are a lot of redundant cards in it which makes it fairly consistent but fun to play.
Creatures:
Gelectrode: This + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye is the main engine of the deck. Continuously ping and draw cards while casting rituals and burn to untap and repeat.
Cinder Pyromancer: This + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye is the main engine of the deck. Continuously ping and draw cards while casting rituals and burn to untap and repeat.
Wee Dragonauts: Second win con. Gets huge and has evasion
Lava Spike: Like bolt except it only targets players.
Flame Jab: Awesome card. We'll be drawing a lot of lands with the draw engine, this puts them to use and recurs over and over from the grave fueling the gelectrode.
Other than that, any counterspell of your choice, everyone has their favorite. Don't forget though, draw too many counterspells and you might run out of fuel.
"Free cards"
Manamorphose: Filters mana, untaps gelectrode and replaces itself.
Gitaxian Probe: No casting cost, untaps gelectrode and replaces itself. Only problem is that it doesn't work with pyromancer.
Noxious revival: No casting cost and puts a ritual on top of your library to make more mana. Only problem is that it doesn't untap pyromancer.
Wait, did everyone forget about Tezzeret the Seeker so quickly? He's on-color and tutors for artifacts. Anything you can say about Mishra, I can say the same for Tezz. Tezz is less vulnerable to removal as well (dodges creature removal, can -X upon casting before opponent gains priority).
His +1 is useless and his X is just a reshape for 5 mana. Mishra gets fizzled cards from the GY unlike tez and can potentially get many more cards when tez only gets one.
I've tested a bit with Mishra, and the colour fixing required to play him is pretty savage. Along with his 4 cmc, this means that I often don't have many eggs in hand when I finally play him. He also really wants to be played with Etherium Sculptor, and he likes to be with KCI or Grinding Station because they both abuse the higher artifact count he likes.
Mishra might pull the deck in too many different directions.
I've been consistently able to cast Mishra after the 1st Sunrise. Like KCI, I've about never been able to cast Mishra before the 1st Sunrise. It's the fact that my hand is 3/4s drained immediately after I cast Mishra that's been the problem.
I see Mishra, Artificer Prodigy less as a separate engine, and more as a better Open the vaults. I used to run 2 Open the vaults in addition to the sunrise/reward package to reignite a fizzled combo or more commonly a countered sunrise. The reason that I like Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and replaced vaults with him is because he can quickly repopulate a board with cards that are stuck in the graveyard like vaults can but he's ALSO useful after you already have the combo rolling. If you already have 2 sunrises and a noxious revival in your hand, drawing a vaults off an egg is just bad. Mishra however can help speed the combo up, (I guess he could kinda be considered a win more card), but can also guarantee you don't fizzle. He's kind of like a jack of all trades. My deck runs 10 total "sunrise effects", 4 sunrise, 4 faiths, and 2 Mishra which I find is the perfect number to always have a sunrise when needed. Unfortunately he is pretty rough to cast like you said. He's not an instant board saver because you'd probably need 2 eggs just to cast him, but I'm gonna continue testing him for now. I like the idea of him in theory, but the only way to know for certain is extensive testing.
Is there any particular decklists you are interested in? I currently have the U/ Ninja-Erayo deck sleeved up, I can't really test on the U/ Ninja list with Champion of Lambholt(currently brewing by other posers here) since I'm missing some cards. I can try to brainstorm a little on the B/ list but without any game play.
So to conclude, any imminent updates would probably be on the U/ Ninja-Erayo and B/ Ninja-Faerie versions.
Let me know which decklist you are thinking of, and I can work on that first.;)
I tried running a list of Goryo's Vengeance/Through The Breach with Griselbrand and the tech was Fury Of The Horde, because you just swing with Griselbrand, draw 14 cards, take another attack step, draw 7 more, and are probably good to take another attack step and you just kill them in one turn. I could never make it consistant enough but it could muster turn 2 kills. The problem was no other Faithless Looting type effects.
You can't reanimate Blightsteel Colossus with Goryo's Vengeance. It's not Legendary.
I'm glad you mentioned it. I've been working on a list that does just that by using the new m13 cards.
The deck works like Terrapin Guts explained. Basically, once you get Griselbrand out as early as turn 2, you draw 14 cards, swing, gain life and draw another 7 more. With 21 cards drawn in total, your name has to be bad luck brian if you don't draw at least 1 Fury of the Horde and 2 other random red cards. You then cast the Fury of the Horde by exiling the 2 cards, swing with Griselbrand and draw another 7 cards and repeat another time to win.
In theory, it IS possible for you to not hit the 2 Fury of the Horde that you need, but lets do some math. Lets say you go off on turn 4, (pretty much where most modern combo decks go off on average). That's 7 cards in your opening hand, 3-4 draw phases depending on wether you're playing first or second, and 5+ cards from the Ideas Unbound, Faithless Looting, and Wild Guess package. That's 15-16 cards plus 28 from the Griselbrand, 43-44 cards. And that's being conservative with the amount of cards drawn from the draw package, the first few turns you spend playing just those to shape your hand and graveyard.
The Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is a win con on it's own by making your opponent discard his cards and letting you draw 7, (which you can then use to fuel the Fury of the Horde/Griselbrand combo, although honestly, they can be replaced with nicol bolas since they count as red and can be discarded to Fury of the Horde. I probably would if the "from the vault" version of nicol bolas wasn't $40 a piece. The old art is fricken atrocious.
I haven't finished figuring out the lands for the deck yet, but from what I've play tested with "any color" proxy lands, the deck is SUPER explosive and quick. The Ideas Unbound, Faithless Looting, and Wild Guess package adds some redundancy to the deck and absolutely plows through the library getting you what you need. fast.
Have you got stats on proportion of turn 3, 4, 5, 6+ wins whilst goldfishing with the KCI version?
No exact stats but I personally goldfish win turn 4 consistently almost every time. Even without a sunrise in hand I usually force myself to go off turn 4 because with 10 total sunrises, it's hard to not draw into one. I've never had to go past turn 5.
Has anyone looked into using Mishra, Artificer Prodigy?
Maybe just as a 1 or 2 of? He doesn't draw, doesn't do anything when he comes in, but he seems to add a lot as you combo. Being able to tutor out eggs, micro sunrise eggs back and cheat cards from your hand into play seems really good. His cost seems prohibitive too. Can anyone tell me if he's been discussed and, if so, on what page?
That card looks very interesting, nice idea! Not to mention that the art on that card is fricken amazing!
I run 18 lands because I felt like I always needed more mana to combo off. I found 18 to be a reliable sweet spot. I'd take out a land for a single mox opal but there's no point in running any more because they're legendary.
My only kill spell is banefire. Most people run that and a pyrite spellbomb which I honestly don't see the point of. A Leyline of Sanctity would stop both of them, so I'd just have a laboratory maniac in the SB. The other argument for pyrite spellbomb is that it's an egg when you're not killing your opponent with it, but it's a ****ty one at that. It costs 1 mana to cost and you have to pay another to draw a card without getting another back in the process. I'd rather just run a real egg over it.
I have two Open the Vaults in addition to the 8 sunrises for more chances at combo'ing and fizzle protection. I might replace the vaults with Mishra, Artificer Prodigy though. I'm liking that card. It costs less and can fetch artifacts from everywhere, including your hand and graveyard. He also saves fizzles like Open the Vaults in addition to being able to greatly speed the combo up. Play a Etherium Sculptor while he's out and you can basically play everything for free and search out all the other copies of them. The fact that he thins out the deck means that you have a greater chance of drawing a sunrise.
The mana cost for Mishra, Artificer Prodigy is it's problem, but it shouldn't be too hard to pay with all the filter eggs and blooms. It would have been nice if it was an artifact itself so it could be sacced to KCI, but oh well.
4 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
4 Griselbrand
Spells
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Makeshift Mannequin
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Faithless Looting
4 Wild Guess
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Curiosity
4 Zombie Infestation
Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
I'm interested, got the link? Im on my phone
The cool thing about this deck is that it uses the reanimator shell. I haven't come up with a sb yet but i guess I'd just take out the Curiosity, Ophidian Eye, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Ethereal Usher and replace them with more standard reanimator cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand, thoughtsieze and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, ect. Or maybe Griselbrand and Fury of the Horde and follow more of a glass cannon griselbrand build since I have a lot of red cards.
Roughly something like this
4 Griselbrand
reanimation
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Makeshift Mannequin
4 Fury of the Horde
draw/discard/fetch
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Faithless Looting
4 Wild Guess
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Lightning Axe
Yeah I know, that's why I have Gitaxian Probe to ideally do that the same turn. The positive difference between this deck and the standard reanimator deck is that with reanimator you have to hold Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and a discard spell until you draw a Goryo's Vengeance to do it all together. With this deck, you just toss Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind asap with a draw/discard spell and reanimate him whenever you draw Goryo and Curiosity. The two combos basically require the same amount of cards at the end of the day, just different ways of doing it. The Footsteps of the Goryo is also cheaper to cast than the Makeshift Mannequin that most reanimator decks run because you don't necessarily need to attack with Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind to win.
Idk about the swans combo, I feel like it would make the deck too cluttered.
This deck works by attaching Curiosity or Ophidian Eye to Gelectrode or Cinder Pyromancer and fueling that engine with a bunch of burn spells and rituals like Pyretic Ritual and Flame Jab.
The weaknesses of this deck are counters and obviously removal. It could be hard to get a electrode or pyromancer to stick a turn if you don't have a way of giving them haste. The strong point of the deck is the fact that there are a lot of redundant cards in it which makes it fairly consistent but fun to play.
Creatures:
Gelectrode: This + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye is the main engine of the deck. Continuously ping and draw cards while casting rituals and burn to untap and repeat.
Cinder Pyromancer: This + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye is the main engine of the deck. Continuously ping and draw cards while casting rituals and burn to untap and repeat.
Wee Dragonauts: Second win con. Gets huge and has evasion
Izzet Guildmage: Recopies spells
Kiln Fiend: non flying Wee Dragonauts.
Burn:
Lightning Bolt: Best burn spell in modern. Cheap too.
Lava Spike: Like bolt except it only targets players.
Flame Jab: Awesome card. We'll be drawing a lot of lands with the draw engine, this puts them to use and recurs over and over from the grave fueling the gelectrode.
Rituals:
Desperate Ritual: Ramps mana and untaps Gelectrode. ping, draw and repeat.
Pyretic Ritual: Ramps mana and untaps Gelectrode. ping, draw and repeat.
Seething Song: Ramps mana and untaps Gelectrode. ping, draw and repeat.
Enchant:
Curiosity: Enchants Gelectrode or Cinder Pyromancer.
Ophidian Eye: Enchants Gelectrode or Cinder Pyromancer.
Support:
Crimson wisps: Gives a creature haste and replaces itself. One of the weaknesses of the deck is summoning sickness.
Reckless Charge: Gives haste and recurs for a second gelectrode proc.
Faithless Looting: Gets cards, dumps lands and recurs for a second gelectrode proc.
Training Grounds: Works with Izzet Guildmage. Nets HUGE amounts of mana off rituals.
Other than that, any counterspell of your choice, everyone has their favorite. Don't forget though, draw too many counterspells and you might run out of fuel.
"Free cards"
Manamorphose: Filters mana, untaps gelectrode and replaces itself.
Gitaxian Probe: No casting cost, untaps gelectrode and replaces itself. Only problem is that it doesn't work with pyromancer.
Noxious revival: No casting cost and puts a ritual on top of your library to make more mana. Only problem is that it doesn't untap pyromancer.
Decklists:
PeePee (pure ping)
4 Gelectrode
4 Cinder Pyromancer
Rituals
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Jab
2 Lava Spike
Enchant
4 Curiosity
4 Ophidian Eye
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 mountain
2 island
Wee Draugo trode
4 Gelectrode
4 Wee Dragonauts
Rituals
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
3 Crimson Wisps
3 Noxious Revival
Enchant
4 Curiosity
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 mountain
2 island
The combo base is Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity or Ophidian Eye to draw the whole deck and deal your opponent 1 damage per draw! Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind can be hard casted, but the deck is much faster with Goryo's Vengeance or Footsteps of the Goryo by using cards like Ideas Unbound, Faithless Looting, and Wild Guess to plow through our deck while shaping our hand and graveyard.
Goryo's Vengeance lets you bring back Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, put Curiosity on it, and swing with haste to ignite the combo.
Footsteps of the Goryo is a second Goryo's Vengeance minus haste. attach Curiosity and cast a draw spell like Gitaxian Probe to ignite.
Creatures:
Ethereal Usher: Transmute her for a Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind!
Spells:
Footsteps of the Goryo: Slightly crappier, but needed Goryo's Vengeance.
Ideas Unbound: Draw tons of cards and puts Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind in the graveyard.
Faithless Looting: Draw tons of cards and puts Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind in the graveyard.
Wild Guess: Draw tons of cards and puts Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind in the graveyard.
Gitaxian Probe: Free card draw. Can ignite the Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity combo for free.
lightning axe: creature removal + puts Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind in the graveyard.
Remand: Counter + combo ignite! Great card!
Pact of negation: Great counter since it's a one turn win!
Enchant:
Curiosity: Combos with Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.
Ophidian Eye: Slightly worse, but needed Curiosity.
Decklist:
4 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
2 Ethereal Usher
Draw/discard
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Faithless Looting
4 Wild Guess
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 pact of negation
reanimate
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Footsteps of the Goryo
win con
4 Curiosity
4 Ophidian Eye
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Mountain
His +1 is useless and his X is just a reshape for 5 mana. Mishra gets fizzled cards from the GY unlike tez and can potentially get many more cards when tez only gets one.
I see Mishra, Artificer Prodigy less as a separate engine, and more as a better Open the vaults. I used to run 2 Open the vaults in addition to the sunrise/reward package to reignite a fizzled combo or more commonly a countered sunrise. The reason that I like Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and replaced vaults with him is because he can quickly repopulate a board with cards that are stuck in the graveyard like vaults can but he's ALSO useful after you already have the combo rolling. If you already have 2 sunrises and a noxious revival in your hand, drawing a vaults off an egg is just bad. Mishra however can help speed the combo up, (I guess he could kinda be considered a win more card), but can also guarantee you don't fizzle. He's kind of like a jack of all trades. My deck runs 10 total "sunrise effects", 4 sunrise, 4 faiths, and 2 Mishra which I find is the perfect number to always have a sunrise when needed. Unfortunately he is pretty rough to cast like you said. He's not an instant board saver because you'd probably need 2 eggs just to cast him, but I'm gonna continue testing him for now. I like the idea of him in theory, but the only way to know for certain is extensive testing.
I can see the silence, but why would he play BoBs o.O
Pride of the Clouds: Staying with the theme of Aven Mimeomancer, possibly take out the snapcasters and have an all flying creature list if you want a more aggro style deck. He'd go really well with cards like Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, and Midnight Haunting.
Magus of the Moat might be cool too, it might come out a little late in a deck like this though.
I'm particular to the ninja-fairie version myself
I'm glad you mentioned it. I've been working on a list that does just that by using the new m13 cards.
Here's what I have so far.
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Griselbrand
reanimation
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Makeshift Mannequin
4 Fury of the Horde
draw/discard/fetch
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Faithless Looting
4 Wild Guess
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Lightning Axe
The deck works like Terrapin Guts explained. Basically, once you get Griselbrand out as early as turn 2, you draw 14 cards, swing, gain life and draw another 7 more. With 21 cards drawn in total, your name has to be bad luck brian if you don't draw at least 1 Fury of the Horde and 2 other random red cards. You then cast the Fury of the Horde by exiling the 2 cards, swing with Griselbrand and draw another 7 cards and repeat another time to win.
In theory, it IS possible for you to not hit the 2 Fury of the Horde that you need, but lets do some math. Lets say you go off on turn 4, (pretty much where most modern combo decks go off on average). That's 7 cards in your opening hand, 3-4 draw phases depending on wether you're playing first or second, and 5+ cards from the Ideas Unbound, Faithless Looting, and Wild Guess package. That's 15-16 cards plus 28 from the Griselbrand, 43-44 cards. And that's being conservative with the amount of cards drawn from the draw package, the first few turns you spend playing just those to shape your hand and graveyard.
The Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is a win con on it's own by making your opponent discard his cards and letting you draw 7, (which you can then use to fuel the Fury of the Horde/Griselbrand combo, although honestly, they can be replaced with nicol bolas since they count as red and can be discarded to Fury of the Horde. I probably would if the "from the vault" version of nicol bolas wasn't $40 a piece. The old art is fricken atrocious.
I haven't finished figuring out the lands for the deck yet, but from what I've play tested with "any color" proxy lands, the deck is SUPER explosive and quick. The Ideas Unbound, Faithless Looting, and Wild Guess package adds some redundancy to the deck and absolutely plows through the library getting you what you need. fast.
Also, since it's a one turn kill, maybe Pact of Negation can be used to protect the combo and Summoner's Pact to help set it up and go off. If I were to focus purely on the combo, i'd take out the Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur for 4 Summoner's Pact.
No exact stats but I personally goldfish win turn 4 consistently almost every time. Even without a sunrise in hand I usually force myself to go off turn 4 because with 10 total sunrises, it's hard to not draw into one. I've never had to go past turn 5.
That card looks very interesting, nice idea! Not to mention that the art on that card is fricken amazing!
This is my current deck
2 Etherium Sculptor
Win con
4 Faith's Reward
4 Second Sunrise
2 Open the Vaults
1 Banefire
eggs
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Ichor Wellspring
2 Elsewhere Flask
2 Terrarion
4 Reshape
3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
3 Lotus Bloom
lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Plains
I run 18 lands because I felt like I always needed more mana to combo off. I found 18 to be a reliable sweet spot. I'd take out a land for a single mox opal but there's no point in running any more because they're legendary.
My only kill spell is banefire. Most people run that and a pyrite spellbomb which I honestly don't see the point of. A Leyline of Sanctity would stop both of them, so I'd just have a laboratory maniac in the SB. The other argument for pyrite spellbomb is that it's an egg when you're not killing your opponent with it, but it's a ****ty one at that. It costs 1 mana to cost and you have to pay another to draw a card without getting another back in the process. I'd rather just run a real egg over it.
I have two Open the Vaults in addition to the 8 sunrises for more chances at combo'ing and fizzle protection. I might replace the vaults with Mishra, Artificer Prodigy though. I'm liking that card. It costs less and can fetch artifacts from everywhere, including your hand and graveyard. He also saves fizzles like Open the Vaults in addition to being able to greatly speed the combo up. Play a Etherium Sculptor while he's out and you can basically play everything for free and search out all the other copies of them. The fact that he thins out the deck means that you have a greater chance of drawing a sunrise.
The mana cost for Mishra, Artificer Prodigy is it's problem, but it shouldn't be too hard to pay with all the filter eggs and blooms. It would have been nice if it was an artifact itself so it could be sacced to KCI, but oh well.
I'd play this if i were to play Mishra, Artificer Prodigy:
2 Etherium Sculptor
2 Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Win con
4 Faith's Reward
4 Second Sunrise
2 Open the Vaults
1 Banefire
eggs
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Ichor Wellspring
2 Elsewhere Flask
2 Terrarion
4 Reshape
3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
3 Lotus Bloom
1 mox opal
lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Plains