All you're doing till turn 4 is looting and discarding anything but lands, more loot spells, and gifts. By t4, with all this digging and selective discard, I usually have all the combo pieces in the gy but a gifts + whatever and Looting will ensure that. A pile of Ooze + Rites + Devil's Play just feels too sick since we could care less where then end up.
Forbidden Alchemy is really good here with the curve and with Ooze and infinite mana out to dig for Gifts or straight into Devils play and I'm thinking about electrolyze over pyroclasm for the cantrip but I'm not sure.
So far I think that the gifts version is more consistent. The focus on Loot spells gives you an option of what you want to discard as opposed to dredging which is all luck. In the gifts version by t4 I almost always have everything I need in the GY and a bunch of lands and a gifts in hand to win.
Since you're ramping, why not just go with Diabolic Tutor?
Or since you're drawing tonnes of cards, why not Infernal Tutor?
I'd rather just play more win conditions than something to tutor for them. Cards like diabolic tutor are also not good before you have a lot of mana and sometimes don't do much the turn they're played. I could probably see tutors as copies of grisel though in an all in build with soulspikes instead of wurmcoils. Something like 4-5 tutors/infernal, 4 grisel, 4 soulspike and maybe some burn/lifegain spells. I just think that discard/removal are more valuable to survive the early game better and have a chance against combo.
I'm on my phone and i cant think of a better name, but It's not a combo in the trafitional sense of winning the turn it goes off, but with grisel and heartless/mana multipliers, more ramp spells you draw basically become efficient rituals that let you dump most of your hand of discard, removal, wurmcoils, burn/lifegain to counteract lifeloss and draw more cards, more grisels, ect. And grisel can come out pretty early but he's not needed to win. A 15/15 Nirkana has won me plenty of games
I'm trying to see what Wurmcoils are like in place of the Vengeances and Consume Spirits since they're a good threat, work well with Heartless Summoning and stall the game well with the tokens and lifelink.
I realized Vengeance can be a little awkward at times at 7 cmc. It's awkward when the swamps are producing multiples of 2-3 mana. It means you'd need 4 swamps with one multiplier out for a total of 8 mana as opposed to 3 swamps for 6 mana for wurmcoil or 3 swamps with 2 multipliers out for 9 mana as opposed to 2 swamps for 6 mana for wurmcoil.
I normally play tron, so when I remembered wurmcoil, I also remembered a ton of other fat bombs that aren't black too.
What about Abyssal Persecutor? If you have a way to get it off the field after you stabilize, it can work as a great staller.
Idk about Persecutor, I feel like it doesn't fit in the deck very well. It's a strong beater, but not anything else. I could see Persecutor being in a less 'all in strategy' build though, maybe with Vampire Nighthawk for a more mid range style.
some impressions: sorin's vengance seems way too win-more. You probably want more interaction. My gut is that lilana/dismember/IoK/devour flesh/slaughter pact will serve you much better. Though if you want to WIN-NOW with grislbrand the card you are looking for is soul spike
also you could probably drop 1x grisbrand for a black tutor, increasing ambition would be the first one I would try.
I also hate that extraplanar lense costs 3, and your gameplan needs you to drop that on turn 3 (this makes you especially vulnerable to turn 4 creature combos like splinterwin) I would up your slaughter pact count to compensate
I like it against aggro decks, surviving to t4-5 against aggro and casting a Vengeance or a huge consume spirit is awesome. the +10 life is really important in a deck that doesn't really run creatures it can block with and buys a lot of time.
As for the tutor, I used to run some beseech the queens but I didn't really like them since they didn't really do anything till the turn I could cast whatever I fetched. I increased the number of Griselbrands and liked it much more since it'd just let me draw a bunch of rituals in addition to discard and burn to cast them right away.
edit: actually idk about soulspike, I feel like they wouldn't be to good to have without a Griselbrand on the field.
No interest? I updated my list and been having some success with it. I got rid of all the sign in blood, pyyrexian arena, beseech the queen, ect. basically anything that didn't do something the turn it landed and instead added more removal and discard. Now with 6 discard spells and and 7 removal (9 if you count consume spirit since it can be played for 'x' early game before any ramp combo), and more in the SB, it's much easier to survive and combo out.
With heartless out and enough lands and mana multipliers, extra multipliers and ramp basically become overpowered rituals once they're played. With a Grieslbrand out, you just chain rituals together, extort what you can, draw a bunch of cards and unload your hand and cast a bunch of fatties and discard to neuter your opponent and win. Cards like Grisiel and Sorin's Vengeance can come out as early as t4 in a lot of games with a bunch of discard/removal in between.
Render Silent could be cool, I'd probably replace deprive with it.
I still play this deck online every now and then and it still amazes me how versatile it is. That's my favorite thing about this deck, it just feels like it doesn't have any bad matchups, especially after SB. There are so many possible plays and answers for different things and situations that wins mostly come down to skill rather than topdecking some ridiculous combo or something overpowered but flimsy.
Hey guys, here's a mono black ramp deck I was working on. I only spent about a half an hour throwing this together, so it's a rough list but it works surprisingly well and it's extremely satisfying to play.
And if they have a way to remove/bounce it next turn? Would you let the 10+ infect go through, die next turn when the Angel goes away, or buy yourself some time?
Don't block with the angel on the off chance that they might even have a removal spell in their deck.
No idea where you heard that from but it's 100% not true.
Yeah I don't even know what I was thinking when I said that, been a while since I played this deck and even then I should've known lol.
Here's the most consistent I've been able to get the list by just using ratios and grouping up the combo pieces. The deck really is essentially a 4 card combo and generally we need 1 of each piece. It's just a good combo because of the amount of redundancy there is.
I'm not sure but I think I remember reading somewhere that Sunhome doesn't give the titan Double Strike when it's already attacking. Can someone clear that up?
No problem! You should try posting the idea of using Gifts in the pod forum. I don't see why it can't be amazing with so many mana dorks and Unburial Rites.
I agree about Wrath not being good here, I'd rather run Obstinate Baloth and Lone Missionary or targeted removal like path against aggro. Pulse of the Fields has always been a favorite of mine, but I'm not sure in this deck. If you really want wraths though, I'd run 1 Wrath, 1 DoJ so you can gifts for them both.
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Morselhoarder
Spells
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Unburial Rites
2 Devil's Play
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Pyroclasm
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Steam Vents
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
All you're doing till turn 4 is looting and discarding anything but lands, more loot spells, and gifts. By t4, with all this digging and selective discard, I usually have all the combo pieces in the gy but a gifts + whatever and Looting will ensure that. A pile of Ooze + Rites + Devil's Play just feels too sick since we could care less where then end up.
Forbidden Alchemy is really good here with the curve and with Ooze and infinite mana out to dig for Gifts or straight into Devils play and I'm thinking about electrolyze over pyroclasm for the cantrip but I'm not sure.
This is my dredge list
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Morselhoarder
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells
4 Devil's Play
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Breaking
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Steam Vents
So far I think that the gifts version is more consistent. The focus on Loot spells gives you an option of what you want to discard as opposed to dredging which is all luck. In the gifts version by t4 I almost always have everything I need in the GY and a bunch of lands and a gifts in hand to win.
I'd rather just play more win conditions than something to tutor for them. Cards like diabolic tutor are also not good before you have a lot of mana and sometimes don't do much the turn they're played. I could probably see tutors as copies of grisel though in an all in build with soulspikes instead of wurmcoils. Something like 4-5 tutors/infernal, 4 grisel, 4 soulspike and maybe some burn/lifegain spells. I just think that discard/removal are more valuable to survive the early game better and have a chance against combo.
I'm on my phone and i cant think of a better name, but It's not a combo in the trafitional sense of winning the turn it goes off, but with grisel and heartless/mana multipliers, more ramp spells you draw basically become efficient rituals that let you dump most of your hand of discard, removal, wurmcoils, burn/lifegain to counteract lifeloss and draw more cards, more grisels, ect. And grisel can come out pretty early but he's not needed to win. A 15/15 Nirkana has won me plenty of games
4 Nirkana Revenant
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Griselbrand
4 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Thoughtseize
4 Victim of Night
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Disfigure
4 Extraplanar Lens
Lands
24 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Memoricide
2 Infest
I'm trying to see what Wurmcoils are like in place of the Vengeances and Consume Spirits since they're a good threat, work well with Heartless Summoning and stall the game well with the tokens and lifelink.
I realized Vengeance can be a little awkward at times at 7 cmc. It's awkward when the swamps are producing multiples of 2-3 mana. It means you'd need 4 swamps with one multiplier out for a total of 8 mana as opposed to 3 swamps for 6 mana for wurmcoil or 3 swamps with 2 multipliers out for 9 mana as opposed to 2 swamps for 6 mana for wurmcoil.
I normally play tron, so when I remembered wurmcoil, I also remembered a ton of other fat bombs that aren't black too.
There's Sundering Titan, [CARD]Karn Liberated
[/CARD], Platinum Angel, and all the eldrazi too.
Idk about Persecutor, I feel like it doesn't fit in the deck very well. It's a strong beater, but not anything else. I could see Persecutor being in a less 'all in strategy' build though, maybe with Vampire Nighthawk for a more mid range style.
I like it against aggro decks, surviving to t4-5 against aggro and casting a Vengeance or a huge consume spirit is awesome. the +10 life is really important in a deck that doesn't really run creatures it can block with and buys a lot of time.
As for the tutor, I used to run some beseech the queens but I didn't really like them since they didn't really do anything till the turn I could cast whatever I fetched. I increased the number of Griselbrands and liked it much more since it'd just let me draw a bunch of rituals in addition to discard and burn to cast them right away.
edit: actually idk about soulspike, I feel like they wouldn't be to good to have without a Griselbrand on the field.
4 Nirkana Revenant
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Griselbrand
Spells
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Thoughtseize
2 Consume Spirit
2 Sorin's Vengeance
2 Disfigure
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Extraplanar Lens
Lands
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Murder
2 Duress
2 Damnation
2 Wrench Mind
2 Pithing Needle
With heartless out and enough lands and mana multipliers, extra multipliers and ramp basically become overpowered rituals once they're played. With a Grieslbrand out, you just chain rituals together, extort what you can, draw a bunch of cards and unload your hand and cast a bunch of fatties and discard to neuter your opponent and win. Cards like Grisiel and Sorin's Vengeance can come out as early as t4 in a lot of games with a bunch of discard/removal in between.
I still play this deck online every now and then and it still amazes me how versatile it is. That's my favorite thing about this deck, it just feels like it doesn't have any bad matchups, especially after SB. There are so many possible plays and answers for different things and situations that wins mostly come down to skill rather than topdecking some ridiculous combo or something overpowered but flimsy.
updated list:
4 Nirkana Revenant
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Griselbrand
Spells
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Thoughtseize
2 Consume Spirit
2 Sorin's Vengeance
2 Disfigure
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Extraplanar Lens
Lands
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Murder
2 Duress
2 Damnation
2 Wrench Mind
2 Pithing Needle
Here's some other big fun cards that can played
Lim-Dul the Necromancer
Lord of the Void
Myojin of Night's Reach
Phage the Untouchable
Rune-Scarred Demon
Scion of Darkness
Army of the Damned
Wit's End
Skithyrix, the Blight Dragon
Exsanguinate
Don't block with the angel on the off chance that they might even have a removal spell in their deck.
Yeah I don't even know what I was thinking when I said that, been a while since I played this deck and even then I should've known lol.
Here's the most consistent I've been able to get the list by just using ratios and grouping up the combo pieces. The deck really is essentially a 4 card combo and generally we need 1 of each piece. It's just a good combo because of the amount of redundancy there is.
4 Primeval Titan
4 Summoner's Pact
Amulets (8)
4 Amulet of Vigor
4 Trinket Mage
Ramp (8)
4 Summer Bloom
2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Sakura-Tribe Scout
Other Spells/Dig (12)
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Boros Garrison
2 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Simic Growth Chamber
Other Lands (16)
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Teetering Peaks
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Spinerock Knoll
4 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Nature's Claim
2 Gaea's Revenge
3 Firespout
3 Negate
2 Beast Within
I'm not sure but I think I remember reading somewhere that Sunhome doesn't give the titan Double Strike when it's already attacking. Can someone clear that up?
Biomancer's a 4cmc Melira that you can pod a 3cmc creature for that also helps the backup beatdown plan a lot.
Here's what I wanna try.
1 drop: 6
2 drop: 7
3 drop: 7
4 drop: 4
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Murderous Redcap
2 Pestermite
1 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
1 Sun Titan
2 Viscera Seer
2 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Master Biomancer
1 Restoration Angel
4 Wall of Roots
Other Spells (9)
4 Birthing Pod
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
4 City of Brass
1 Forest
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Spellskite
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
1 Lone Missionary
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
I agree about Wrath not being good here, I'd rather run Obstinate Baloth and Lone Missionary or targeted removal like path against aggro. Pulse of the Fields has always been a favorite of mine, but I'm not sure in this deck. If you really want wraths though, I'd run 1 Wrath, 1 DoJ so you can gifts for them both.