MDU has 15 untapped red sources for his one drops. I'd be more comfortable with 16 which means cutting a Mutavault. You could probably afford to cut the gates for Plains since you'd still have 20 red sources which is more than enough for Ash Zealot. I think your proposed change is fine.
Carlos Moral just made top 4 in GP Prague with UR Delver beating Junk. Looks like he's running something very similar to my list except with Grim Lavamancer instead of Runechanter's Pike.
Loxodon Smiter is kind of a fringe card in the general metagame but when I've run into it I've usually 2 for 1d myself or used Turn / Burn on turn five.
I like Shock in the maindeck here because we're a control deck that wants something to do on turn one against aggro decks. This is something UW can't do. It's also cheap interaction later in the game to make our counterspells more effective. We just board them out against control and midrange decks not running Elvish Mystic or Pack Rat.
Ral Zarek is good in more aggressive builds to tap down blockers or zap them with his -2, but decks that want him would almost always rather run Chandra. The only exception would be decks running more than four counters, but if you're running more counters than that you're necessarily running fewer creatures which makes Ral Zarek underwhelming. See where I'm going with this?
Haha I'm definitely not doubting valdarith. he's bought a completely different take on it to the table, and I love it. but that's what I've loved about the izzet build the entire time. I just know his build will have problems in my meta, where det sphere and some enchant destruction exist. hence why I wanna push the build over the top, and round it out for me. I've been tinkering with it
The all spells version would be fun, if there wasn't a Damn clock lol
I should add that I've played the control list on MODO a bit and have never come close to timing out. The only way I can envision you not finishing a match in paper is if your opponent slowplays or you take too long making decisions due to lack of familiarity with the deck.
I've also never had a problem countering Detention Sphere. You really have the upper hand on UW control because you are better at their own game than they are having access to Counterflux.
I also played another SE with the above list going 3-0 facing of against our own rujasu which I'll post 2morrow.
That's an interesting change. Warleader's Helix may actually result in more consistent damage since it doesn't die to removal. Interested to see how it works out for you long term.
@commiepuddin I wasn't saying no one ran, just that there's sixty variants that stem from it. Sorry if it was deceiving, seeming as if counter burn doesn't work.
@valdarith I've followed a lot of zemanjaski post. I wasn't thinking about rdw splash white was the one being referenced. I thought he was saying there was an izzet deck that was posting results with only splash for that. I feel like the deck strategies are different, and its lack of synergy with spellheart, phoenix (which I don't run, but I can definitely see why I should) and pyromancer.
My only fear with the hammer is the fact there is packed hate against the bident, which also applies to it. Essentially, it's a very weak plan b in the meta where I play. Mind you, I'm not saying it's bad, because I actually enjoyed playing with your build into the wee hours of this morning. But I don't feel like it sets you up for a good post board game.. once they rwalize the plan, to safely play it, most control decks are dropping aetherling, or aggro has already killed you. Simply, I feel it needs one more finisher to go from good to great.
I actually wasn't aware of people hating on Bident. Typically I don't resolve a Hammer unless I have countermagic up anyway, but if artifact hate is prevalent in your meta I can see there being some consternation on running it as a finisher. What's good about this deck though is that the Phoenix is your secondary finisher. A fellow clan member likened the deck's endgame as "death by a thousand papercuts." I found that strangely accurate.
I do know of a couple of people that have played Prognostic Sphinx and/or Aetherling as finishers. On paper the Sphinx looks underwhelming but Zemanjaski has been testing it in his UB control deck and commented on how strong it is. It may be worth looking into. It's only downside is weakness to Devour Flesh and sweepers. It would obviously be sided out against UWx control since Phoenix and Hammer are more than enough to beat them. Four postboard Counterflux is impossible for them to fight through.
What kind of buffoonery is this? 4 spellhearts and 4 pyromancers with 16 spells? Splashing blue for chimera and turn//burn? Talking about focused strategy and cutesy stuffz? LOLZ nice trolling, I hope.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
I mildly disagree with the necessity for a rename on the forum... Essentially it did start as a counter burn deck, and a large number of the discussions were centered on that. Yes the deck has evolved into variants, but all of them have learned from one another, which is the beauty to me about this color scheme.
Not doubting your statement, but is there a report on the one that splashes for only chained to the rocks? I wanted to see its matchups and dissect thwm a bit, add them to the binder I have some notes in. I overlooked chained because it lacked interaction between many of the key cards a large majority of us run.
I like how the mostly creature less build looks, but how do your creatures square off with the rest of the metas end game? I personally don't see a lot of punch there, but I can see where it could gain headway and diligently work at people.
Sidenote: I will continue to provide my input, but I've recently decided to change to another deck like many players here have. Am I a pro? Nah, but I do enjoy the direction this has taken and will apply some of the successful theories we established to a BUG tempo deck.
Check out magicdownunder's posts for his RW deck. We've all been playing that deck since THS with great success. You can also search that same name on Youtube for videos of his matchups on MODO. There's also articles on Channel Fireball from Zemanjaski on the archetype as he was the main player in the development of the deck.
The control deck I posted is deceptively powerful. It actually wins most often with Hammer of Purphoros. We're nearly impossible to beat once it resolves. But Phoenix recursions are a big part of the deck as well, particularly against control where you'll be using the mechanic to gain incremental card advantage. There's also obvious synergy with Thoughtflare.
I was actually comparing Turn / Burn to Chained to the Rocks. There are upsides to both.
Scryland is obviously huge. I won't deny that. But we still call our red deck with Chained a Boros Aggro deck (jokingly Barely Boros). I don't see why the same principle can't be applied here. I think it's more of a "your deck isn't how I want to play Izzet Burn so I'm not going to let you call it Izzet Burn" thing. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.
I think you're not considering the fact that a similar playstyle has been proven successful with a white splash for ONLY Chained to the Rocks. The CIPT clause isn't nearly the issue you think it is, and the gates are necessary to have the correct number of red and blue sources in the deck (18 and 10 respectively).
Regardless, I have seen many different decklists here with no real common theme. As a matter of fact the deck I provided has more burn spells than many other lists here. What I'm hearing from you is that this thread shouldn't actually be called Izzet Burn or that for some reason the deck needs more than eight blue spells to qualify as Izzet. In that case I suggest the thread be renamed appropriately.
I will say I've tested a list that may be more popular with you all. It's more of a control deck but it's pretty well positioned right now.
I think 16-20 spells is fine. He's really there for late game reach and a creature that had evasion and is immune to Ultimate Price and resists Magma Jet, Shock, and Pharika's Cure while winning battles against Nightveil Specter.
A few of us at diestoremoval have been experimenting with more fliers in our red decks as they are particularly well positioned in the current meta. Skynight Legionnaire has been doing well and Chimera is better than Legionnaire in many cases.
I like Shock in the maindeck here because we're a control deck that wants something to do on turn one against aggro decks. This is something UW can't do. It's also cheap interaction later in the game to make our counterspells more effective. We just board them out against control and midrange decks not running Elvish Mystic or Pack Rat.
I should add that I've played the control list on MODO a bit and have never come close to timing out. The only way I can envision you not finishing a match in paper is if your opponent slowplays or you take too long making decisions due to lack of familiarity with the deck.
I've also never had a problem countering Detention Sphere. You really have the upper hand on UW control because you are better at their own game than they are having access to Counterflux.
That's an interesting change. Warleader's Helix may actually result in more consistent damage since it doesn't die to removal. Interested to see how it works out for you long term.
I actually wasn't aware of people hating on Bident. Typically I don't resolve a Hammer unless I have countermagic up anyway, but if artifact hate is prevalent in your meta I can see there being some consternation on running it as a finisher. What's good about this deck though is that the Phoenix is your secondary finisher. A fellow clan member likened the deck's endgame as "death by a thousand papercuts." I found that strangely accurate.
I do know of a couple of people that have played Prognostic Sphinx and/or Aetherling as finishers. On paper the Sphinx looks underwhelming but Zemanjaski has been testing it in his UB control deck and commented on how strong it is. It may be worth looking into. It's only downside is weakness to Devour Flesh and sweepers. It would obviously be sided out against UWx control since Phoenix and Hammer are more than enough to beat them. Four postboard Counterflux is impossible for them to fight through.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
Check out magicdownunder's posts for his RW deck. We've all been playing that deck since THS with great success. You can also search that same name on Youtube for videos of his matchups on MODO. There's also articles on Channel Fireball from Zemanjaski on the archetype as he was the main player in the development of the deck.
The control deck I posted is deceptively powerful. It actually wins most often with Hammer of Purphoros. We're nearly impossible to beat once it resolves. But Phoenix recursions are a big part of the deck as well, particularly against control where you'll be using the mechanic to gain incremental card advantage. There's also obvious synergy with Thoughtflare.
Scryland is obviously huge. I won't deny that. But we still call our red deck with Chained a Boros Aggro deck (jokingly Barely Boros). I don't see why the same principle can't be applied here. I think it's more of a "your deck isn't how I want to play Izzet Burn so I'm not going to let you call it Izzet Burn" thing. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.
Regardless, I have seen many different decklists here with no real common theme. As a matter of fact the deck I provided has more burn spells than many other lists here. What I'm hearing from you is that this thread shouldn't actually be called Izzet Burn or that for some reason the deck needs more than eight blue spells to qualify as Izzet. In that case I suggest the thread be renamed appropriately.
I will say I've tested a list that may be more popular with you all. It's more of a control deck but it's pretty well positioned right now.
3 Chandra's Phoenix
Spells (32)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Turn / Burn
4 Syncopate
2 Essence Scatter
3 Dissolve
2 Counterflux
2 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Thoughtflare
1 Opportunity
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
9 Island
8 Mountain
2 Dispel
2 Pithing Needle
2 Essence Scatter
2 Negate
1 Turn / Burn
2 Counterflux
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Aetherize
A few of us at diestoremoval have been experimenting with more fliers in our red decks as they are particularly well positioned in the current meta. Skynight Legionnaire has been doing well and Chimera is better than Legionnaire in many cases.