Some posters, such as Sasky and Spooly, have reported very positive results with Dig in UR and RUG Delver, respectively. Dig seems especially better here with 25 lands (vs 18-19) and an overall higher power level and answer suite. I definitely think it's worth testing as a 2-of, for starters. The card is nuts.
Just picking up Storm and wanted to know if Tormenting Voices was making the cut, and if so, what for? I don't have enough experience with the deck to determine if it's better than Thought Scour and/or Ravings.
Agreed on all accounts, though I for one am really opposed to running Talrand. I do not see this deck wanting to run such a fragile, sorcery speed 4 drop. And holding onto Probes for that long seems bad when we usually need to dig for something/trigger Young Pyro earlier.
You're right, Remand is distinctly worse when we're behind than a hard counter would be. However, considering that turn 1 Delver into turn 2 Remand is our ideal scenario, and the fact that it cantrips, as well its utility in blue mirrors, I strongly advocate running 3. Of course, I supplement 3-4 Remand with a 3-4 Mana Leak/Deprive split, because we do need a way to stop things cold sometimes. Remand also tends to be a better top deck than Leak.
Keranos is great vs GBx. Probably the best card in the mirror as well, which extends well to the Twin matchup because they side out the combo. It's also very strong against UWR and Pod. Pretty much a blowout in grindy matchups, and gives us reasonable scaling power. I tend to like it more than Batterskull since the token is so easily answered, whereas Keranos is not. Batterskull is good for stabilising, whereas Keranos puts you very far ahead as long as you're not terribly behind.
I really don't like 3 mana sorcery-speed cards in this deck. We rarely want to tap out on our own turn and I think that despite the durability issues, Clique is much more in-line with what we want in a creature than Illusory Angel, being a unique combination of disruption, a clock, and a threat that we don't have to commit to on our own turn. I miss it a lot in the RUG Delver list I'm presently testing. Of course, everything I say is based on my view of the deck. If you like the results with Angel, then what I say doesn't matter I imagine a couple Gutshot would be good in a list with it, as another enabler.
On another note, I posted in the RUG thread about my thoughts on Remand vs Leak, and a bit on Vapor Snag.
Spooly, thank you for time. With regards to Vapor Snag and Remand, the issue is clear: do we want to delay threats, or permanently answer them? A control deck wants to answer threats indefinitely, but we are not a control deck. Trading 1-for-1 is fine for UWR control, because they have numerous ways of generating card advantage, thus putting them ahead in a game based on equal trades. Our card advantage is largely limited to Snapcaster Mage, Electrolyze, and Young Pyromancer tokens (which are easily negated). Most other top tier decks have more ways of generating card advantage than we do, so it is better to avoid direct trades when possible.
The games we win are the ones where we are able to establish an aggressive board position and protect it, while simultaneously sabotaging the efforts of our opponents to drop a significant threat. We don't win games by answering slews of threats and then dropping a bomb; we need to be the aggressors whilst disrupting our opponents. While I support Mana Leak and Deprive in lists as answers to the things we need dead, I don't feel that they directly compete with Remand. An effect as powerful as a counterspell stapled to a cantrip is perfect for us. Remand buys us a turn against most relevant blowout spells (sweeper, Liliana, Electrolyze, Cryptic, Sphinx's, Splinter Twin combo piece, Scapeshift, etc.), which is really two draws; the cantrip, and the turn we survive to untap with.
Our plan is to clock our opponent with one of our threats. If Remand buys us a turn, that's one less turn on the clock. It's one more token for Young Pyro. It's two more cards we get to see-- another threat, another answer for the next threat our opponent attempts to deploy, another land drop, another burn spell to close out the game. Tempo decks live and die by having the right card at the right time to maintain the advantage they've created. We don't run many individually powerful cards, so topdecking is something we don't generally want to do. Remand ensures we dig deeper to hit what we need, and to slow our opponents down to buy our threats more time.
Vapor Snag is often worth more than the potential 1-for-1 trade we get with regular removal by being an instant (a distinct advantage over Flame Slash, since it hits manlands, Twin combo pieces, and extra utility to save our own threats). Also notable is the extra reach it lends us through the tacked on life loss. It's not a perfect card, but it answers nearly anything, which, outside of Dismember, is as good as we can hope for. The ability to save our dudes and the fact that we can flash it back without paying 8 life makes it the best option (IMO) available to us for the deck at this time.
Hi guys. I've been talking with Spooly a bit and the following are our thoughts thus far.
Me:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Tarmogoyf
I've played UR Delver and RUG Delver combined for over the last several months. I felt for a long time that RUG was superior, with the resilience of Goyf and SB options (Ancient Grudge). I was following the RUG Delver thread, but my list was definitely more "tempo" oriented with 19 lands and no Cryptics, but it was neither fast nor particularly great in attrition. After seeing results for UR Delver, I decided to try the deck out again, and realized that it has a much better tempo/aggro plan than RUG does. But, here's my question: does the deck benefit from running both Pyro and Goyf, and in return, no Cliques or Lavamancers? Goyf certainly feels more high impact than either, and it seems like a nice compliment to Young Pyro, adding addition pressure to the ground that can't be Bolted, Angered, Electrolyzed, or Pyroclasmed away.
Spooly:
I don't know if I agree that UR has the best tempo or aggro plan - in my experience, RUG with a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster has the best version of that plan. The problem is that vs some decks, that tempo plan is pretty bad and you need to be able to play a longer game, so Goblin Guide just has to go. Though if BGx and UWR start disappearing from the metagame and combo comes to the forefront, I'll be sleeving up my Goblin Guides. Even the non guide RUG lists with the same creature suite as the UR lists except Goyf instead of Young Pyro seems slightly better at the aggro/tempo plan to me just because Goyf is more resilient, though Young Pyro has it's upsides and combined with the relatively painless manabase of UR it's close.
I don't know if Young Pyromancer is the right card to replace Goblin Guide, but that's what I'm leaning towards as of yesterday. It's almost as good as Guide as an aggressive creature, and is a much better mid-late game card. I haven't tested them together in the same deck yet, but in the lists that I've been running I'm leaning towards a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster, 3 Young Pyro, and maybe the 4th Young Pryo, but in that slot I'm also considering: Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, Scavenging Ooze, Forked Bolt, and the 2nd Spell Snare. I'm leaning toward toward Spell Snare at the moment, but I see good reasons for all of them.
Me:
I agree with everything you've said, especially with the fact that Delver is by far the worst card in RUG decks. I have tested variations of RUG control, but frankly, Jund/Junk does it better. I tested Guide a fair bit, and it's a very
good card; unfortunately, this is not the meta for it! Maybe one day...
I think that the UR shell is roughly what we want to be looking at in terms of the best home for a Delver deck. When I ran UR, I liked a high count of 1CMC counters. After reading the SCG article about a PTQ that was taken down by UR Delver, I'm less convinced of their necessity. I think we want more 2 mana counters-- between 6 and 8. The 1 mana counters tend to be weak draws later in the game and situational (don't get me wrong though-- I like Snare quite a bit!). Another issue is that they are still 1 for 1 trades, and most decks have better card advantage engines to pull ahead if we try to play that game.
When I played either version of the deck, my main issue was balancing aggression and control playstyle elements. For example, on the draw, I would be more or less forced to play control because I couldn't afford for them to resolve something powerful that I couldn't later answer, and would thus fall too far behind to get ahead (thinking Birthing Pod, Liliana on an empty board, Courser of Kruphix). To this end, I find Vapor Snag to be a godsend; I can tap out in the early turns and apply pressure because I know I can deal with any of their powerful creatures in a snap (Wurmcoil, an opposing Goyf, Courser, a big Ooze, Linvala, etc). The card also has further uses, such as clearing blockers and saving our own creatures (which is not to be underestimated). Yes, such cards can often present card disadvantage, but with Young Pyro, we can generate a lot of value by simply snagging our own Pyro in response to removal.
Running Pyro with Goyf also increases our threat density. Lavamancer is excellent, but slow. There have been many games where I have hesitated to play it for need of doing something with a greater immediate impact. Clique is a favourite of mine, but 3 mana is hefty and I would prefer a threat that didn't die to Bolt, since that is already a weakness of UR Delver. Goyf also helps us deal with opposing Goyfs, and really helps our interaction on the ground with other creature based decks.
Before I recap my thoughts, I'd like to add that Runechanter's Pike did shine very brightly the few games I tested it, but it may be unnecessary with the heavy hitting Goyf does for us.
Overall, I like Young Pyro for his ability to let us play more proactively (with mana up for a response, it is generally unprofitable for the opponent to attempt to trade 1 for 1 to remove him) and as another source of CA, something the deck needs when games go longer. To this end as well, I think that a higher Remand count is in order, to keep cards flowing (which has many benefits for us, especially if we can delay our opponents from dealing with a threat on the board). 18 lands is plenty with a cantrip suite consisting of 4 Visions, 4 Probe, 1-2 Electrolyze (I like 2), and 3-4 Remand. I like a Keranos and Batterskull in the side and I think our land and cantrip base supports a few 5 drops just fine. Vapor Snag type effects are a good way of letting us play pro actively while still having the ability to manage the opponent's threats without holding Mana up every turn, and thus, deprecating our own ability to deploy threats. Void Snare interests me as a cheap catch all, but the sorcery-speed keeps me hesitant.
I, like you, took an interest in Simic Charm. It has been somewhat underwhelming in my testing. I'm not sure about running 3 Snag or 2 Snag and 2 Charm, which amounts to 4 bounce-effects + some versatility for protecting our threats and pushing damage through. Gut Shot is another card that seems decent in a list running 4x Pyro; it deals with a lot of things that we'd usually waste a Bolt on. It's also another free spell, which has obvious merits outside of Young Pyro interactions. If not Gut Shot, however, then I would definitely consider some number of Forked Bolt and Burst Lightning. I ran Forked Bolt a few months ago when everyone was on the Pillar plan, and I think Forked Bolt is superior. Both bother me for being sorceries, which really makes a difference in game.
Edit: Spooly said he would chime in later, so stay tuned!
Hi guys. I've been talking with Spooly a bit and the following are our thoughts thus far.
Me:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Tarmogoyf
I've played UR Delver and RUG Delver combined for over the last several months. I felt for a long time that RUG was superior, with the resilience of Goyf and SB options (Ancient Grudge). I was following the RUG Delver thread, but my list was definitely more "tempo" oriented with 19 lands and no Cryptics, but it was neither fast nor particularly great in attrition. After seeing results for UR Delver, I decided to try the deck out again, and realized that it has a much better tempo/aggro plan than RUG does. But, here's my question: does the deck benefit from running both Pyro and Goyf, and in return, no Cliques or Lavamancers? Goyf certainly feels more high impact than either, and it seems like a nice compliment to Young Pyro, adding addition pressure to the ground that can't be Bolted, Angered, Electrolyzed, or Pyroclasmed away.
Spooly:
I don't know if I agree that UR has the best tempo or aggro plan - in my experience, RUG with a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster has the best version of that plan. The problem is that vs some decks, that tempo plan is pretty bad and you need to be able to play a longer game, so Goblin Guide just has to go. Though if BGx and UWR start disappearing from the metagame and combo comes to the forefront, I'll be sleeving up my Goblin Guides. Even the non guide RUG lists with the same creature suite as the UR lists except Goyf instead of Young Pyro seems slightly better at the aggro/tempo plan to me just because Goyf is more resilient, though Young Pyro has it's upsides and combined with the relatively painless manabase of UR it's close.
I don't know if Young Pyromancer is the right card to replace Goblin Guide, but that's what I'm leaning towards as of yesterday. It's almost as good as Guide as an aggressive creature, and is a much better mid-late game card. I haven't tested them together in the same deck yet, but in the lists that I've been running I'm leaning towards a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster, 3 Young Pyro, and maybe the 4th Young Pryo, but in that slot I'm also considering: Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, Scavenging Ooze, Forked Bolt, and the 2nd Spell Snare. I'm leaning toward toward Spell Snare at the moment, but I see good reasons for all of them.
Me:
I agree with everything you've said, especially with the fact that Delver is by far the worst card in RUG decks. I have tested variations of RUG control, but frankly, Jund/Junk does it better. I tested Guide a fair bit, and it's a very
good card; unfortunately, this is not the meta for it! Maybe one day...
I think that the UR shell is roughly what we want to be looking at in terms of the best home for a Delver deck. When I ran UR, I liked a high count of 1CMC counters. After reading the SCG article about a PTQ that was taken down by UR Delver, I'm less convinced of their necessity. I think we want more 2 mana counters-- between 6 and 8. The 1 mana counters tend to be weak draws later in the game and situational (don't get me wrong though-- I like Snare quite a bit!). Another issue is that they are still 1 for 1 trades, and most decks have better card advantage engines to pull ahead if we try to play that game.
When I played either version of the deck, my main issue was balancing aggression and control playstyle elements. For example, on the draw, I would be more or less forced to play control because I couldn't afford for them to resolve something powerful that I couldn't later answer, and would thus fall too far behind to get ahead (thinking Birthing Pod, Liliana on an empty board, Courser of Kruphix). To this end, I find Vapor Snag to be a godsend; I can tap out in the early turns and apply pressure because I know I can deal with any of their powerful creatures in a snap (Wurmcoil, an opposing Goyf, Courser, a big Ooze, Linvala, etc). The card also has further uses, such as clearing blockers and saving our own creatures (which is not to be underestimated). Yes, such cards can often present card disadvantage, but with Young Pyro, we can generate a lot of value by simply snagging our own Pyro in response to removal.
Running Pyro with Goyf also increases our threat density. Lavamancer is excellent, but slow. There have been many games where I have hesitated to play it for need of doing something with a greater immediate impact. Clique is a favourite of mine, but 3 mana is hefty and I would prefer a threat that didn't die to Bolt, since that is already a weakness of UR Delver. Goyf also helps us deal with opposing Goyfs, and really helps our interaction on the ground with other creature based decks.
Before I recap my thoughts, I'd like to add that Runechanter's Pike did shine very brightly the few games I tested it, but it may be unnecessary with the heavy hitting Goyf does for us.
Overall, I like Young Pyro for his ability to let us play more proactively (with mana up for a response, it is generally unprofitable for the opponent to attempt to trade 1 for 1 to remove him) and as another source of CA, something the deck needs when games go longer. To this end as well, I think that a higher Remand count is in order, to keep cards flowing (which has many benefits for us, especially if we can delay our opponents from dealing with a threat on the board). 18 lands is plenty with a cantrip suite consisting of 4 Visions, 4 Probe, 1-2 Electrolyze (I like 2), and 3-4 Remand. I like a Keranos and Batterskull in the side and I think our land and cantrip base supports a few 5 drops just fine. Vapor Snag type effects are a good way of letting us play pro actively while still having the ability to manage the opponent's threats without holding Mana up every turn, and thus, deprecating our own ability to deploy threats. Void Snare interests me as a cheap catch all, but the sorcery-speed keeps me hesitant.
I, like you, took an interest in Simic Charm. It has been somewhat underwhelming in my testing. I'm not sure about running 3 Snag or 2 Snag and 2 Charm, which amounts to 4 bounce-effects + some versatility for protecting our threats and pushing damage through. Gut Shot is another card that seems decent in a list running 4x Pyro; it deals with a lot of things that we'd usually waste a Bolt on. It's also another free spell, which has obvious merits outside of Young Pyro interactions. If not Gut Shot, however, then I would definitely consider some number of Forked Bolt and Burst Lightning. I ran Forked Bolt a few months ago when everyone was on the Pillar plan, and I think Forked Bolt is superior. Both bother me for being sorceries, which really makes a difference in game.
Edit: Spooly said he would chime in later, so stay tuned!
Not trying to derail the discussion, but in the interest of developing the archetype, what would your thoughts be on running this creature suite?
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Tarmogoyf
I've played UR Delver and RUG Delver combined for over the last several months. I felt for a long time that RUG was superior, with the resilience of Goyf and SB options (Ancient Grudge). I was following the RUG Delver thread, so my list was definitely more midrange than "tempo" oriented, but it was neither fast nor particularly great in attrition. After seeing results for UR Delver, I decided to try the deck out again, and realized that it has a much better tempo/aggro plan than RUG does. But, here's my question: does the deck benefit from running both Pyro and Goyf, and in return, no Cliques or Lavamancers? Goyf certainly feels more high impact than either, and it seems like a nice compliment to Young Pyro, adding addition pressure to the ground that can't be Bolted, Angered, Electrolyzed, or Pyroclasmed away.
Meta call, and also based on the rest of your creature suite. I think Clique should be included before any number of Lavamancers for RUG because of the lack of synergy is has with the rest of our deck. Clique is also great to flash in EOT if your opponent is afraid to play into your counters, or even to bait them into tapping out in a control mirror.
I've found Shackles to be very sensitive in testing. 4 non islands is roughly 1\5 lands in our deck. It makes Shackling a 4/5 or 5/6 Goyf that much harder. While it's not always relevant, I believe in maximizing the utility of cards, or I'd rather straight up replace them after a certain point of compromise. I run 19 lands in my list, so maybe having 1 more non-island is of more significance to me than it would be of to you.
1 ofs actually turn up a lot since we dig quite deep with all of our cantrips. I think that testing 1, or even 2 (if colour producing) man lands is reasonable. The question is if their added utility benefits the deck more than it detracts. I think that running man lands also creates the opportunity to run a Sword over a Shackles, which is interesting as well.
I don't like them for a few reasons. As you already pointed out, they cost us tempo. As a tempo deck that is not thriving as is, we would be giving up one of the few advantages of the deck. Also consider the number of 1 and 2 landers we can keep, and then factor in the ocassional ETB land screwing with that.
Another issue is that they play poorly with our Moons and Shackles. Most lists run 3 non-fetch, non-island lands. As is, I have experienced some issues with even so few in terms of diluting the strength of the aforementioned. Our strength is consistency and multiple angles of attack, and sacrificing that leaves us with a lackluster midrange deck.
Edit: that came across as harsh, and I do not mean to dismiss man lands upright. I just feel like we are already quite a bit shifted towards midrange, but without the CA, pressure, and disruption engines of other successful midrange decks. It is very constraining to build around Delver, and the deck seems to have the best results with the current building philosophy we've been adhering to. By all means, test! I'm just sharing my thoughts.
Thank you!
Mark
Keranos is great vs GBx. Probably the best card in the mirror as well, which extends well to the Twin matchup because they side out the combo. It's also very strong against UWR and Pod. Pretty much a blowout in grindy matchups, and gives us reasonable scaling power. I tend to like it more than Batterskull since the token is so easily answered, whereas Keranos is not. Batterskull is good for stabilising, whereas Keranos puts you very far ahead as long as you're not terribly behind.
On another note, I posted in the RUG thread about my thoughts on Remand vs Leak, and a bit on Vapor Snag.
Cheers!
The games we win are the ones where we are able to establish an aggressive board position and protect it, while simultaneously sabotaging the efforts of our opponents to drop a significant threat. We don't win games by answering slews of threats and then dropping a bomb; we need to be the aggressors whilst disrupting our opponents. While I support Mana Leak and Deprive in lists as answers to the things we need dead, I don't feel that they directly compete with Remand. An effect as powerful as a counterspell stapled to a cantrip is perfect for us. Remand buys us a turn against most relevant blowout spells (sweeper, Liliana, Electrolyze, Cryptic, Sphinx's, Splinter Twin combo piece, Scapeshift, etc.), which is really two draws; the cantrip, and the turn we survive to untap with.
Our plan is to clock our opponent with one of our threats. If Remand buys us a turn, that's one less turn on the clock. It's one more token for Young Pyro. It's two more cards we get to see-- another threat, another answer for the next threat our opponent attempts to deploy, another land drop, another burn spell to close out the game. Tempo decks live and die by having the right card at the right time to maintain the advantage they've created. We don't run many individually powerful cards, so topdecking is something we don't generally want to do. Remand ensures we dig deeper to hit what we need, and to slow our opponents down to buy our threats more time.
Vapor Snag is often worth more than the potential 1-for-1 trade we get with regular removal by being an instant (a distinct advantage over Flame Slash, since it hits manlands, Twin combo pieces, and extra utility to save our own threats). Also notable is the extra reach it lends us through the tacked on life loss. It's not a perfect card, but it answers nearly anything, which, outside of Dismember, is as good as we can hope for. The ability to save our dudes and the fact that we can flash it back without paying 8 life makes it the best option (IMO) available to us for the deck at this time.
Me:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Tarmogoyf
I've played UR Delver and RUG Delver combined for over the last several months. I felt for a long time that RUG was superior, with the resilience of Goyf and SB options (Ancient Grudge). I was following the RUG Delver thread, but my list was definitely more "tempo" oriented with 19 lands and no Cryptics, but it was neither fast nor particularly great in attrition. After seeing results for UR Delver, I decided to try the deck out again, and realized that it has a much better tempo/aggro plan than RUG does. But, here's my question: does the deck benefit from running both Pyro and Goyf, and in return, no Cliques or Lavamancers? Goyf certainly feels more high impact than either, and it seems like a nice compliment to Young Pyro, adding addition pressure to the ground that can't be Bolted, Angered, Electrolyzed, or Pyroclasmed away.
Spooly:
I don't know if I agree that UR has the best tempo or aggro plan - in my experience, RUG with a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster has the best version of that plan. The problem is that vs some decks, that tempo plan is pretty bad and you need to be able to play a longer game, so Goblin Guide just has to go. Though if BGx and UWR start disappearing from the metagame and combo comes to the forefront, I'll be sleeving up my Goblin Guides. Even the non guide RUG lists with the same creature suite as the UR lists except Goyf instead of Young Pyro seems slightly better at the aggro/tempo plan to me just because Goyf is more resilient, though Young Pyro has it's upsides and combined with the relatively painless manabase of UR it's close.
I don't know if Young Pyromancer is the right card to replace Goblin Guide, but that's what I'm leaning towards as of yesterday. It's almost as good as Guide as an aggressive creature, and is a much better mid-late game card. I haven't tested them together in the same deck yet, but in the lists that I've been running I'm leaning towards a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster, 3 Young Pyro, and maybe the 4th Young Pryo, but in that slot I'm also considering: Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, Scavenging Ooze, Forked Bolt, and the 2nd Spell Snare. I'm leaning toward toward Spell Snare at the moment, but I see good reasons for all of them.
Me:
I agree with everything you've said, especially with the fact that Delver is by far the worst card in RUG decks. I have tested variations of RUG control, but frankly, Jund/Junk does it better. I tested Guide a fair bit, and it's a very
good card; unfortunately, this is not the meta for it! Maybe one day...
I think that the UR shell is roughly what we want to be looking at in terms of the best home for a Delver deck. When I ran UR, I liked a high count of 1CMC counters. After reading the SCG article about a PTQ that was taken down by UR Delver, I'm less convinced of their necessity. I think we want more 2 mana counters-- between 6 and 8. The 1 mana counters tend to be weak draws later in the game and situational (don't get me wrong though-- I like Snare quite a bit!). Another issue is that they are still 1 for 1 trades, and most decks have better card advantage engines to pull ahead if we try to play that game.
When I played either version of the deck, my main issue was balancing aggression and control playstyle elements. For example, on the draw, I would be more or less forced to play control because I couldn't afford for them to resolve something powerful that I couldn't later answer, and would thus fall too far behind to get ahead (thinking Birthing Pod, Liliana on an empty board, Courser of Kruphix). To this end, I find Vapor Snag to be a godsend; I can tap out in the early turns and apply pressure because I know I can deal with any of their powerful creatures in a snap (Wurmcoil, an opposing Goyf, Courser, a big Ooze, Linvala, etc). The card also has further uses, such as clearing blockers and saving our own creatures (which is not to be underestimated). Yes, such cards can often present card disadvantage, but with Young Pyro, we can generate a lot of value by simply snagging our own Pyro in response to removal.
Running Pyro with Goyf also increases our threat density. Lavamancer is excellent, but slow. There have been many games where I have hesitated to play it for need of doing something with a greater immediate impact. Clique is a favourite of mine, but 3 mana is hefty and I would prefer a threat that didn't die to Bolt, since that is already a weakness of UR Delver. Goyf also helps us deal with opposing Goyfs, and really helps our interaction on the ground with other creature based decks.
Before I recap my thoughts, I'd like to add that Runechanter's Pike did shine very brightly the few games I tested it, but it may be unnecessary with the heavy hitting Goyf does for us.
Overall, I like Young Pyro for his ability to let us play more proactively (with mana up for a response, it is generally unprofitable for the opponent to attempt to trade 1 for 1 to remove him) and as another source of CA, something the deck needs when games go longer. To this end as well, I think that a higher Remand count is in order, to keep cards flowing (which has many benefits for us, especially if we can delay our opponents from dealing with a threat on the board). 18 lands is plenty with a cantrip suite consisting of 4 Visions, 4 Probe, 1-2 Electrolyze (I like 2), and 3-4 Remand. I like a Keranos and Batterskull in the side and I think our land and cantrip base supports a few 5 drops just fine. Vapor Snag type effects are a good way of letting us play pro actively while still having the ability to manage the opponent's threats without holding Mana up every turn, and thus, deprecating our own ability to deploy threats. Void Snare interests me as a cheap catch all, but the sorcery-speed keeps me hesitant.
I, like you, took an interest in Simic Charm. It has been somewhat underwhelming in my testing. I'm not sure about running 3 Snag or 2 Snag and 2 Charm, which amounts to 4 bounce-effects + some versatility for protecting our threats and pushing damage through. Gut Shot is another card that seems decent in a list running 4x Pyro; it deals with a lot of things that we'd usually waste a Bolt on. It's also another free spell, which has obvious merits outside of Young Pyro interactions. If not Gut Shot, however, then I would definitely consider some number of Forked Bolt and Burst Lightning. I ran Forked Bolt a few months ago when everyone was on the Pillar plan, and I think Forked Bolt is superior. Both bother me for being sorceries, which really makes a difference in game.
Edit: Spooly said he would chime in later, so stay tuned!
Me:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Tarmogoyf
I've played UR Delver and RUG Delver combined for over the last several months. I felt for a long time that RUG was superior, with the resilience of Goyf and SB options (Ancient Grudge). I was following the RUG Delver thread, but my list was definitely more "tempo" oriented with 19 lands and no Cryptics, but it was neither fast nor particularly great in attrition. After seeing results for UR Delver, I decided to try the deck out again, and realized that it has a much better tempo/aggro plan than RUG does. But, here's my question: does the deck benefit from running both Pyro and Goyf, and in return, no Cliques or Lavamancers? Goyf certainly feels more high impact than either, and it seems like a nice compliment to Young Pyro, adding addition pressure to the ground that can't be Bolted, Angered, Electrolyzed, or Pyroclasmed away.
Spooly:
I don't know if I agree that UR has the best tempo or aggro plan - in my experience, RUG with a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster has the best version of that plan. The problem is that vs some decks, that tempo plan is pretty bad and you need to be able to play a longer game, so Goblin Guide just has to go. Though if BGx and UWR start disappearing from the metagame and combo comes to the forefront, I'll be sleeving up my Goblin Guides. Even the non guide RUG lists with the same creature suite as the UR lists except Goyf instead of Young Pyro seems slightly better at the aggro/tempo plan to me just because Goyf is more resilient, though Young Pyro has it's upsides and combined with the relatively painless manabase of UR it's close.
I don't know if Young Pyromancer is the right card to replace Goblin Guide, but that's what I'm leaning towards as of yesterday. It's almost as good as Guide as an aggressive creature, and is a much better mid-late game card. I haven't tested them together in the same deck yet, but in the lists that I've been running I'm leaning towards a creature suite of 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 4 Snapcaster, 3 Young Pyro, and maybe the 4th Young Pryo, but in that slot I'm also considering: Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, Scavenging Ooze, Forked Bolt, and the 2nd Spell Snare. I'm leaning toward toward Spell Snare at the moment, but I see good reasons for all of them.
Me:
I agree with everything you've said, especially with the fact that Delver is by far the worst card in RUG decks. I have tested variations of RUG control, but frankly, Jund/Junk does it better. I tested Guide a fair bit, and it's a very
good card; unfortunately, this is not the meta for it! Maybe one day...
I think that the UR shell is roughly what we want to be looking at in terms of the best home for a Delver deck. When I ran UR, I liked a high count of 1CMC counters. After reading the SCG article about a PTQ that was taken down by UR Delver, I'm less convinced of their necessity. I think we want more 2 mana counters-- between 6 and 8. The 1 mana counters tend to be weak draws later in the game and situational (don't get me wrong though-- I like Snare quite a bit!). Another issue is that they are still 1 for 1 trades, and most decks have better card advantage engines to pull ahead if we try to play that game.
When I played either version of the deck, my main issue was balancing aggression and control playstyle elements. For example, on the draw, I would be more or less forced to play control because I couldn't afford for them to resolve something powerful that I couldn't later answer, and would thus fall too far behind to get ahead (thinking Birthing Pod, Liliana on an empty board, Courser of Kruphix). To this end, I find Vapor Snag to be a godsend; I can tap out in the early turns and apply pressure because I know I can deal with any of their powerful creatures in a snap (Wurmcoil, an opposing Goyf, Courser, a big Ooze, Linvala, etc). The card also has further uses, such as clearing blockers and saving our own creatures (which is not to be underestimated). Yes, such cards can often present card disadvantage, but with Young Pyro, we can generate a lot of value by simply snagging our own Pyro in response to removal.
Running Pyro with Goyf also increases our threat density. Lavamancer is excellent, but slow. There have been many games where I have hesitated to play it for need of doing something with a greater immediate impact. Clique is a favourite of mine, but 3 mana is hefty and I would prefer a threat that didn't die to Bolt, since that is already a weakness of UR Delver. Goyf also helps us deal with opposing Goyfs, and really helps our interaction on the ground with other creature based decks.
Before I recap my thoughts, I'd like to add that Runechanter's Pike did shine very brightly the few games I tested it, but it may be unnecessary with the heavy hitting Goyf does for us.
Overall, I like Young Pyro for his ability to let us play more proactively (with mana up for a response, it is generally unprofitable for the opponent to attempt to trade 1 for 1 to remove him) and as another source of CA, something the deck needs when games go longer. To this end as well, I think that a higher Remand count is in order, to keep cards flowing (which has many benefits for us, especially if we can delay our opponents from dealing with a threat on the board). 18 lands is plenty with a cantrip suite consisting of 4 Visions, 4 Probe, 1-2 Electrolyze (I like 2), and 3-4 Remand. I like a Keranos and Batterskull in the side and I think our land and cantrip base supports a few 5 drops just fine. Vapor Snag type effects are a good way of letting us play pro actively while still having the ability to manage the opponent's threats without holding Mana up every turn, and thus, deprecating our own ability to deploy threats. Void Snare interests me as a cheap catch all, but the sorcery-speed keeps me hesitant.
I, like you, took an interest in Simic Charm. It has been somewhat underwhelming in my testing. I'm not sure about running 3 Snag or 2 Snag and 2 Charm, which amounts to 4 bounce-effects + some versatility for protecting our threats and pushing damage through. Gut Shot is another card that seems decent in a list running 4x Pyro; it deals with a lot of things that we'd usually waste a Bolt on. It's also another free spell, which has obvious merits outside of Young Pyro interactions. If not Gut Shot, however, then I would definitely consider some number of Forked Bolt and Burst Lightning. I ran Forked Bolt a few months ago when everyone was on the Pillar plan, and I think Forked Bolt is superior. Both bother me for being sorceries, which really makes a difference in game.
Edit: Spooly said he would chime in later, so stay tuned!
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Tarmogoyf
I've played UR Delver and RUG Delver combined for over the last several months. I felt for a long time that RUG was superior, with the resilience of Goyf and SB options (Ancient Grudge). I was following the RUG Delver thread, so my list was definitely more midrange than "tempo" oriented, but it was neither fast nor particularly great in attrition. After seeing results for UR Delver, I decided to try the deck out again, and realized that it has a much better tempo/aggro plan than RUG does. But, here's my question: does the deck benefit from running both Pyro and Goyf, and in return, no Cliques or Lavamancers? Goyf certainly feels more high impact than either, and it seems like a nice compliment to Young Pyro, adding addition pressure to the ground that can't be Bolted, Angered, Electrolyzed, or Pyroclasmed away.
Inquiring minds,
-M
Another issue is that they play poorly with our Moons and Shackles. Most lists run 3 non-fetch, non-island lands. As is, I have experienced some issues with even so few in terms of diluting the strength of the aforementioned. Our strength is consistency and multiple angles of attack, and sacrificing that leaves us with a lackluster midrange deck.
Edit: that came across as harsh, and I do not mean to dismiss man lands upright. I just feel like we are already quite a bit shifted towards midrange, but without the CA, pressure, and disruption engines of other successful midrange decks. It is very constraining to build around Delver, and the deck seems to have the best results with the current building philosophy we've been adhering to. By all means, test! I'm just sharing my thoughts.