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  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Quote from jwf239 »
    With the recent display of our community's ability to comprehend statistics I'm going to really miss Ktkenshinx.

    EDIT(to actually add something to the discussion):Anyway, curious myself to see the new criteria. I am in the camp that more exclusive tiers are better at actually representing the tiers. An 11% deck should not be classified similarly to a 2% deck. It doesn't do either of them or their players any favors.


    Ktkenshinx is leaving? Frown
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [POLL] What cards do you want banned or unbanned in the 4/24/17 announcement?
    My votes:

    • Unban Preordain: The fears of this card bringing us into combo winter part 2 are pretty exaggerated in my opinion. I don't think that the lack of Tier 1 blue decks is really a problem, tbh, but this is a card that could be unbanned to help those decks while not shaking up the format too much. If Storm or Ad Nauseam become a problem with Preordain, it's better to just ban enablers from those decks.
    • Unban BBE: The one good argument for keeping this card banned was that Jund was Tier 1 and there's no reason to unban something that slots into a tier 1 deck. Well, that's not longer true. The card is quite clearly not too strong for Modern and should come off the list to help traditional Jund and maybe Big Zoo compete with the Shadow decks.
    • Ban nothing: There's just no reason at this point. Shadow is pretty strong, but not broken and with Preordian/BBE unbans other decks should gain back some power with Preordain/BBE unbans.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [POLL] What cards do you want banned or unbanned in the 4/24/17 announcement?
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Quote from Nyzzeh »
    Twin alone made nonflash 3 drops not viable in Modern so I don't think it's getting unbanned any time soon.

    Horrendously false claim with absolutely no supporting evidence. Never mind the fact that the current format has an average CMC of 1.75 and nearly everything higher than 3cmc is either cheated into play, accelerated into play, or never actually cast for it's true cost. Another perpetuating myth that holds no ground whatsoever.


    Don't you remember the Splinter Twin days, when Liliana of the Veil and Kitchen Finks were unplayable jank in Modern?
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Death's Shadow decks are tempo decks. I know it's weird to think of a deck without blue and with tempo-negative plays like Thoughtseize and IoK as a tempo deck, but it is. Cheap aggressive threats + cheap disruption = tempo.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Quote from motleyslayer »
    anyone have Gerard fabiano's list from GP San Antonio?

    Any list and any results from this GP should be taken with GIGANTIC grains of salt. Team Unified forces players to artificially diversify their decks and places arbitrary restrictions on deck choices and construction. Players are playing sub-optimal lists and making sub-optimal deck choices because no cards can repeat. Do you really think that people would be playing Grixis Control by choice? Or just because that's what's leftover after someone builds a BGx shell and a some colorless shell (Eldrazi/Tron/Affinity)?


    I mean, Reid Duke is playing Death's Shadow Abzan instead of Death's Shadow Jund so that Owen could play Grixis Control. It seems like they do think the deck had merit. Otherwise they would have used that slot on Merfolk, or Burn or something.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Quote from Lord Seth »
    Quote from Miezekilla »
    Quote from Lord Seth »

    I strongly disagree. I don't think Jace would be a problem even if Blue was good. I mean, Black would be super powerful even without Liliana, but almost no one has ever suggested banning her.

    You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.


    The Problem is that Jace is a very powerful card that CAN be busted (even if it is just a small chance) and does concentrate a lot of end-game power in one card...it is just not worth the risk. Imagine the feedback if they had to ban him in a year or so...imagine people looking at their 300-400$ playset that they can't use now. It is a very high risk - medium reward scenario, and since modern does well there is no need to take this risk!
    The thing is, people made the same argument against Valakut, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom.


    So what though? Yeah, people are wrong about those cards. But that doesn't mean they are wrong about Jace. You also conveniently left out Golgari Grave Troll because it didn't fit your argument, lol.

    I don't think it's really fair to compare, given that Jace sees Legacy/Vintage play while none of the above cards really do. It's clearly a more powerful card than any of the group you mentioned.

    I could take the exact argument you just used, and apply it to Skullclamp or Dark Depths. Those cards have never been in the format so how do we know they're busted? Right?
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Quote from Lord Seth »
    Quote from FZA »
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Modern is not short on things that are miserable to play against.

    That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.


    This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.

    Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.

    The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
    I strongly disagree. I don't think Jace would be a problem even if Blue was good. I mean, Black would be super powerful even without Liliana, but almost no one has ever suggested banning her.

    You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.


    I didn't play Standard with Jace or 4-year Extended with Jace so that has nothing to do with my opinion. My opinion comes solely from having lots of experience playing decks with Jace in Legacy, which is of course a much higher power level format than Modern and yet Jace is still extremely powerful there.

    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Modern is not short on things that are miserable to play against.

    That being said, I argue that Jace is not only safe, he's so weak in the current meta, he will do nothing to help blue and set back another year of "can't give blue more tools." Functionally, he's no different than Nahiri, and she is only an alternate win condition for Moon/Chalice/Bridge prison lock decks that don't want to solely rely on Koth. She's been terrible in blue shells since about a month or two after her breakout weekend because tapping out for a 4 mana walker that still takes multiple turns to win just isn't good enough when opponents have Thoughtseizing 4/4s and 1 mana 10/10s. Jace is not what Modern needs, regardless of whether he is "safe" or not.


    This is a great point, actually, and one I agree with fully. Even if Jace is "safe" in the current meta, it's only because blue is otherwise very weak right now.

    Unbanning a busted card to help a struggling archetype is not a good move.

    The problem is that with Jace in the format, as soon as blue does get the tools everyone has been hoping for (be it counterspell, or some other good answer or whatever), blue decks with Jace become oppressive and Jace has to be re-banned, which would be a complete disaster.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    First two Fact or Fictions of GP SA w/LSV and Marshall:

    1)Should DS be banned in Modern? Fact. DS just takes diversity away since 3-color control type of decks like Jund,Abzan,Grixis,etc are taking up DS and just improving their decks.

    2)Should Jace be unbanned? Sort of Fiction since we all want to play him but if your job depended on that(Imagine you worked at R&D basically), it would be a little too risky.


    You should probably make it clear that those are your opinions, not Chapin's lol.

    For the record, a summary of Chapin's responses:

    1) Fiction, no way DS should be banned. If the deck becomes oppressive, look at Bauble or Street Wraith as ban targets.

    2) Absolute fiction, Jace is way too overpowered. Yes a lot of decks win on turn 3, but decks with Jace will be able to pack enough cheap interaction to handle those decks. Jace would push out midrange decks from the format.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    I think it's ridiculous that people are labeling Death's Shadow as oppressive or reducing diversity.

    Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, and even Thought-Knot Seer are currently played in a larger percentage of decks than DS is. I mean really what gives?

    The card is basically the perfect solution to Modern's problem of fair decks being inherently disadvantaged because of their manabases. Great card to have in the format.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Temporary 3/13/2017 banlist update discussion thread ("No Changes")
    Quote from ktkenshinx »

    Based on what we do know, I'd say the Twin ban had three goals:

    1. Remove Twin from the format
    2. Improve decks supplanted by Twin ("They can also reduce diversity by supplanting similar decks.")
    3. Improve decks that had bad Twin matchups ("Decks that are this strong can hurt diversity by pushing the decks that it defeats out of competition.")
    (4. Shakeup the PT (not explicitly stated but evidence strongly points to this being one of a few motives))



    I'm pretty sure that while 1-3 were the stated goals, #4 was the one Wizards really cared about. I strongly doubt that right now people at Wizards are lamenting the Twin ban or are displeased with the state of blue decks in Modern. It wasn't mentioned at all in the last banlist update, in which they basically said Modern was in an excellent state.

    I don't think Wizards believes having a blue deck in Tier 1 is necessary. It sucks for Twin players that had their deck banned, but I think it's finally time to move on. The format is otherwise healthy.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Metagame Discussion Thread (Updated 6/12/2016)
    Quote from rogue_LOVE »
    The Nexus update is up. Jund got kicked to T2, and Eldrazi Tron is T1. DS Jund is now king.

    Here's the link, for those wanting to check it out.


    The meta looks fairly healthy. According to the data blue isn't nearly as bad as people seem to think. 4 ramp decks in Tier 1 is a bit concerning though I must say. Maybe we'll see Infect make a comeback to combat them.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    If a piece of the Death's Shadow deck gets banned, I am probably done with Modern to be honest. If the deck really ends up being too dominant, which I find unlikely given that there are plenty of natural counters to the deck, this would be the exact type of situation where an unban would be more appropriate than a ban.

    What would you even ban anyway? Death's Shadow? Goyf? That would be silly. There isn't a single card in the deck that's even close to being overpowered. If it ends up dominating the format, that's just a sign that they've powered other decks down too much with bans.

    This deck is strong but very beatable, and it's a nice police deck to have in the format.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    So I guess Death's Shadow was the hero we needed?

    Seriously though, this is the perfect deck to have as Modern's "top deck". It punishes uninteractive decks, and it's very beatable if you're on something fair like Abzan or Grixis.

    Maybe the "unban Jace" crowd will cool it a bit with 2 Grixis decks in the top 8.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Based on Sheridan's latest article it seems like Cheeri0s wins way too many games on turn 2/3 and thus is likely going to meet the hammer sometime soon, unless we see a pretty extreme shift toward interactive decks in the meta.

    I'd have to assume that the ban target would be either Puresteel, Sram, or Retract. Of these I doesn't seem to matter much which one gets hit, but I think Retract makes the most sense because we're least likely to see another effect like it in the future.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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