MTG Salvation

Quote from Lord Hazanko »

What decks is the Loam-Crime combo best against. When do you actually go for it?

I feel I should answer this question before the comments move to the next page and I forget all about it.

I personally prefer the Loam-Crime lock against Control Decks, i.e., UWx, Ux(x) Tron, other Gifts decks, etcetera; Combo Decks, i.e., Storm, Ad Nauseam, etcetera; and Control-Combo decks, i.e., Scapeshift, Splinter Twin, etcetera. What all these decks have in common is that they all rely heavily on noncreature resources, whether that be cards in hand or lands in play or both. Loam-Crime, especially when paired with Tectonic Edge and/or Ghost Quarter disrupts that and keeps them off their game, hopefully for long enough to be truly effective.

As a side note, sometimes topdecks will still happen. I've had Scapeshift, Keranos and probably others I'm not bothering to remember all pulled on me before I had completely locked them out. It's too be expected, especially in a format so variant and cantrip-light as this one. Sometimes, you're just going to have to assign it to variance and shuffle up for game two/three/your next match. What it does not mean is attributing all one's losses to variance (one theme of my next incredibly long post (my first draft currently clocks in at over two thousand words and is nowhere near finished)(shameless self-promotion)), and what it especially does not mean is you should sleeve up Alchemist's Refuge just in case.

Quote from dull »

Any thoughts on Tidehollow Sculler in the more Junk-like builds?

I mean, I'm no expert on Junk-esque builds, but I was under the impression that they wanted more green mana. I'm not saying that WB is too color intensive, I'm just saying I would probably rather play a Tarmogoyf or a turn two three-drop. It seems disruptive enough, though every time I find myself at the wrong end of a Sculler, it feels like it's too easy to remove. But that's just anecdotal evidence mashed in with the classic "Dies to Removal" argument. I don't see myself testing it - I don't play the right build, but it's surely not the worst option in the world.

I might just play it for that Promo artwork. Damn, foil purple is pretty.

-r

Quote from FuneralofGod »

Interesting to see two different 3-color twin decks. I guess anywhere in modern you have to figure on facing a fair amount of Splinter Twin. I've always felt our archetype has decent game against them.

I wouldn't call Sunyo's deck a dedicated three color deck. I mean, it very well may have been, there was a Kiki-Jiki so it's not too huge of a stretch to also assume Restoration Angel, but I think it was akin to how, like I mentioned, most Twin decks have a one-of Breeding Pool to flashback Ancient Grudge with. He just ran Wear // Tear instead, and used white for better slots against Junk and decks like it.

EDIT: I just realized I "well, actually-ed" you. I apologize. I'm trying to get better at that.

I noticed you boarding in Tasigur a lot. What do you remove for him, and why not run one main deck? You have a pretty low threat count, and not running many copies of Lingering Souls means Norn won't be creating a quick clock either. Though admittedly you mentioned an increase to your Soul count.

I don't mind the fewer amount of threats maindeck primarily because I don't mind longer games and instead rely on manlands to close out games. In games where Elesh Norn isn't turn five slam, I generally use her to clean up board states and present a two turn clock when paired with a manland. It's not like I generally expect her to survive those matches, but when she does, the game tends to end quickly. I do need that third copy of Lingering Souls though.

In terms of Tasigur coming in just about all the time, these were the type of matches where I wanted to bring it in. It's true that he's easily played turn three, and unanswered he runs away with the game. It's also true that late game he can be quite the monster. But in game one, I don't think that Tasigur is the sort of thing I want to be doing. I'd rather blank as much removal as possible. The remove-able creatures that I do play, I'd rather inherently generate card advantage instead of advantage through activated abilities.

Post-board, I take out the most useless cards (in the case of those matches it was Damnation, the charms, and trimming the numbers a little), and add in, well, you see what I generally bring in against the fair matches. Sigarda probably needs to come in more often than she does, but I still need to come up with space for that.

I guess the matches you faced proved the Caryatid relevant, but I wonder how much that block helps in the aggro match-ups. If I'd have to hold up 1 mana just to block 2 damage. I also like being able to reanimate Norn and just randomly having enough bodies to swing for lethal, and Caryatid not supplementing that makes me apprehensive. I guess I just need to make the switch from BOP and see how I like it.

I've said before that Birds versus Caryatid versus whatever is generally a personal decision. I myself, for example, will never get off a turn two Lingering Souls or Liliana, but that's because I prefer hexproof to flying. It's a testing thing, and different people will come up with different results.

Of course, there's always the middle ground.

-r

Could I be added as well? I tend to make lengthy posts that I edit in a word doc, and I'd rather not go back and change all the quotation marks and apostrophes to meet the standard.

I mean I get why I have to. I'd just rather not.

Thanks,
-r

Introduction:
So, if only to generate some semblance of discussion outside of "How many Lilianas should I run?" or "'Gifts isn't a combo card.' 'Yes it is.' 'No it isn't,'" here's a brief tournament report:

Well, I say "tournament." It was just six people and some store credit, but five of those six people were playing decks I recognized, and it was still three rounds, so here you go.

I played with this list:
The changes since I last posted my list were moving the Kitchen Finks to the sideboard in anticipation of Spellskites when I decide my wallet needs another purging, replacing the Sun Droplets. This in turn made the third mode of Abzan Charm significantly worse (and it was already generally the worst mode to begin with), so I replaced it with the third Path to Exile.

I also considered Golgari Charm, Slaughter Pact or the fourth Abrupt Decay in that slot, so I tried to keep track of when any of them would have been more useful. I'll get to that more after the games.

Match One: Chris with Eternal Command

Chris was playtesting with Ken (of round three) when I walked in. He was on Burn, but then audibled to Eternal Command after two matches, saying that that what he was probably playing, so I knew what he was on.

Game One:

I didn't (and still don't) have much experience against Eternal Command, but I figured it would be like most control decks: a long and grind-y affair where both players try to extract as much value from their four-mana blue spells as possible. This game was sort of awkward as both of us got stuck on very little mana for the longest time. He had the Serum Visions, so he was able to draw out of it first, though I started making land drops just after him, something that Life from the Loam was able to help with. Unfortunately, I miscast my Gifts Ungiven, getting Thragtusk and Elesh Norn (I had Unburial Rites in hand) instead of Raven's Crime and Bojuka Bog like I was supposed to, which made things more difficult, but I was able to keep him from casting Cryptic Command too many times (only six!) and Celestial Colonnade got there.

I boarded in Duresses, the spot graveyard removal, Tasigur, and Batterskull. I also considered Celestial Purge for a potential Keranos and Stony Silence for his Æther Vials, but sided in neither.

Game Two:

Chris was much more aggressive this game, or as aggressive as you can be with his sort of deck. I was on the defensive the whole game, basically removing everything that came down as soon as it touched the mat. When time was called, I had three manlands in hand was facing down a Vendilion Clique. He keeps bouncing the lands with Cryptics, but doesn't increase the clock at all and on turn four, he needs a bolt to kill me. His top card is Huntmaster of the Fells.

1-0-1, 1-0

After the match, we talk about Remanding the Huntmaster to get an extra draw. His next draw was Lightning Bolt. I mean, I can't concede based on that information, but it certainly felt bad.

Match Two: Sunyo with Splinter Twin

The last time Sunyo was actually playing instead of spectating, he was on Bogles, something most people gave him flak for. I even said, "Well, I'm off to lose to Bogles," before I sat down, so when he opened on Steam Vents into Serum Visions, I did a sort of double-take.

Game One:

Fortunately, my hand wasn't terrible (two Paths, three lands, and a Gifts), but that didn't stop him from playing three Exarchs and slapping a Twin on the third.

I boarded in Celestial Purges, Duresses, and Tasigur.

Game Two:

Being more aware of what I was up against didn't keep me from double-taking again when Sunyo fetched for a Hallowed Fountain on turn two. I mean, I shouldn't have been too surprised -- people play Wear // Tear over Ancient Grudge all the time -- but I've been working under the Breeding Pool assumption for a while now so I was surprised to see differently. It turns out he pulled the white source for Valorous Stance, which I thought was nifty.

Anyways, I kept his creatures off the board with various removal spells, and blocked what I didn't remove with Sylvan Caryatid. When he tapped low for a Kiki-Jiki, I slipped in a Gifts-Rites-Norn.

Game Three:

There isn't much more to say about this game other than I managed an early Liliana which proceeded to take over the game.

2-1, 2-0

Match Three: Ken with Grixis Twin

Ken's been on a Grixis Twin kick for a week or two (he always plays Twin, but he doesn't always splash a third color, and even then not always black), so I knew what to expect, but I also knew he played one-ofs like Trickbind and Mystical Teachings. During my match against Sunyo, I overheard him explain the interaction between Teferi, Mystical Teachings, and Keranos, which I thought was pretty terrifying.

Game One:

Everything was progressing normally (he plays a threat, I play an answer), except that I was losing life from Murmuring Bosk and Horizon Canopy every time I played something, so I proceeded to die in a wave of Lightning Bolts.

I boarded in Tasigur, Batterskull, Duresses, and Purges.

Game Two:

This game was another grind, involving threats from both sides, answers from both sides, multiple Gifts Ungiven, me regretting siding out Loam-Crime (I figured he had more sorcery-speed threats than normal control decks, and by the time I got it, he'd be casting two-for-ones himself, and it'd be less than ideal), and forcing me to deal with Teferi for the first time (in modern, at least). The highlight for me was, Purging a Keranos that he tapped low for, I used Gifts Ungiven to get Unburial Rites and Thragtusk, which everyone spectating thought was bemusing*. Eventually, I stuck a Liliana, who took over the game.

I boarded Loam-Crime back in.

Game Three:

There were eight minutes left on the clock, so I slipped into heavy-answer mode, and kept him off just about anything until I ensured the draw.

1-1-1, 2-0-1

Conclusions:

• Loam-Crime, isn't useless maindeck, for one. Especially in a metagame populated by Twin decks. While it can be dead, it isn't like the occasional Crime when you're flooded hurt anyone, and it never hurts (well, more than one life at least) to rebuy that fetchland when you're hurting (heh) for mana.
• On the other hand, I don't think I want Ghost Quarter as my second colorless anymore. It has occasionally done some work, but it hasn't been performing well recently. The problem is I don't know what else to try besides the Temple Garden I've been refusing to play for some reason. Thoughts?
• Three Mana Leaks is too many, in my opinion. I'll probably cut one for the third Lingering Souls.
• I didn't miss the Abzan Charm, nor did I really notice a time when the third Path should have been a different removal spell.
• Graveyard hate (without on board pressure) is laughable. Sunyo actually had a Rest in Peace out turn two in our game three, which I neglected to mention because it didn't matter. I didn't even discard it when given the option.
• I disagree with LSV more than I did already, in terms of 4CGifts against Splinter Twin, though I already disagreed on how much removal and Caryatids he was playing, along with his large number of fatties.
• Overall, the deck is still loads of fun to play. I can't really go into detail, but I've had a crisis of faith involving this deck after multiple poor performances (and budget the goblin deck I play on off days just performing better), so it was nice to do well with Gifts again, even if I made (in retrospect) blatant misplays and misboards.

-r

*My reasoning was that he probably had at least one hard removal spell (Ken played three or four Murderous Cuts, and had five cards in hand), so I didn't want to waste a Tasigur or Elesh Norn when it wouldn't impact the board. I hadn't boarded in Sigarda (though in retrospect, perhaps I should have), so that ruled that out. Plus, Thragtusk was a faster clock than both of them (I had no additional threats in my hand), and at the very least it was a two-for-one, so it got the call.

Quote from Scoup »

Does somebody tried [?] a reall [sic] combo gifts? with a package like Kiki, Pestermite, Exarch, Rites? We could use a Scapeshift shell with some ramp and tempo (sakura, cryptic, remand, pact of negation, coalition relic (I now [sic] that there is a fan of relic among us :P)). And [del] end of turn just gift those 4 cards, you will just need 4 (rites) + 3 (untaper [sic]) + 2 (counters) = app. 9 manas [sic] to play the combo, with relic and a good ramp/tempo ratio this seems possible. Thoughts? Just an idea thought [sic]

As said "fan of relic among us," I thought I should make a few points:

1. Nine mana is a lot. It doesn't seem like it because there's all that ramp in the way, but sorcery speed ramp (read: every ramp piece save Harrow (I think)) combined with instant-speed answers doesn't really work unless you're Scapeshift, which both ramps to a much more manageable seven and plays small-opportunity-cost ramp.
2. Coalition Relic is slow (3 mana), supports sorcery-speed haymakers (Godo, Grave Titan, etcetera), and is best used going from three mana on turn three to six mana on turn four.
3. I looked at your math. The optimal choice for that pile is Kiki + Rites (hand) // Deceiver + Pestermite ('yard), which amounts to nine sorcery-speed mana already (so long as Pestermite/Exarch untaps a land). Throw in the "counters" you mentioned, and that's ten mana (assuming Dispel) unless you insist on playing the terrible Disrupting Shoal* or the almost-terrible Pact of Negation**
4. Five Colors is borderline terrible. There's probably a playable list out there for Five-Color Gifts, but the last time I tried it, I ended up cutting all the non-Lightning Bolt red cards for better ones, before realizing I could get better results from just cutting the bolts and red mana from my deck.

If you have a list, I'd like to see it, and work from there. But I can't visualize this in my head and call it good or even playable.

-r

*I believe Ninja-Bears plays it, but they draw multiple cards per turn, so the card disadvantage is cancelled out. This isn't a Force of Will format, guys. (Most) People aren't trying to win on turn one.

**I don't think giving your opponent a free turn is what this deck, or any deck really, wants.

Quote from PBardin »

About recent-er [sic] posts, the red version seems to be a bit too pushy in a Junk-oriented metagame and the relic based 5CC [sic] seems to have all the problems we already have plus a high sensibility [sic] to abrupt decay. If we want aceleration [sic], I much prefer the new Sylvan Caryatid route.

What you're overlooking is that Coalition Relic goes from three to six instead of Caryatid's two to four. This puts a lower emphasis on Gifts and a greater emphasis on plowing through things until the two-for-ones (twos-for-one?) start to snowball together. I agree that Abrupt Decay is a problem, but so is Lightning Bolt for those that play Birds or Hierarch, which I put in a similar - if not equivalent - camp.

Quote from lucashungaro »

I'm not sure about playing a bunch of Charms. I have one flex slot in my Control build that currently is Sultai Charm, but I wouldn't play more than 2.

Even as they add flexibility, all the modes are kinda subpar for the cost (except maybe Esper's discard 2). Because of that I don't like having a steeper mana curve to play them. I like Sultai Charm because it forces you to discard a card and this deck can have some super awful situations with reanimation targets stuck in your hand.

But I never tested a version like that, so I can only give my theoretical 2 cents.

I think I'm just enamored with the instant-speed "Draw Two [...]" option, and the other two modes just slot right in. In that regard, the worst-case scenario (besides not having the mana to cast the card, but if that happens there are bigger problems) is drawing two and <putting them in your hand/discarding one/losing two life> and the other possible modes range from one-for-one removal spells to potential blowouts.

I. Prelude:

This post has been a long time coming, and as such is rather lengthy. I’m not even sure what I’m trying to accomplish here. Maybe I just felt the need to present something as it is instead of reacting to someone else and pushing off from there. Maybe I just felt the need to ramble for a bit. But I’ll try to keep it on-topic to the subtopic of the subforum this is posted in, so hopefully something will be accomplished by the end of all this.

I’ve been playing Gifts Ungiven in Modern for as long as I've had the cards to play with it, and I’ve tuned it to face what amounts to a horrifically inbred metagame chock full of poor-man’s aggressive decks with a smattering of control and maybe a tempo deck or two thrown in for good measure. Certain questions such as “What happens when you don’t draw Gifts?” or “How do you beat <such and such card/deck>?” come up and I’ve always tried to provide the best answer I can. I don’t pretend to know everything, though, and sometimes the best answer I come up with is simply “Pray.” But “Pray” shouldn’t be an answer, especially with the swath of cards this deck has available to it.

Now I’ll be the first person to admit that I can be a bit of an ass when it comes to altering the cards I play with. I’ve generally held the belief that the modern metagame doesn’t actually change as fast as people say it does (and people already say it’s slow (relatively, of course)), that experience with a deck is better than playing the best deck in the room, and as a consequence of this I also believe that card choice shouldn’t be really affected by what you expect to see, but also personal preference. This is, of course, a rather naïve view of things, and it presents a reductive view of others’ opinions, but when working with seventy-five/seventy-six

Even so, with this large influx of new players discovering and exploring the play space that has been left out for them, it’s become a little bit hard to keep track of what opinions have and have not been expressed and/or discredited, which decklists have been promoted and whatnot. I will be cross-checking this with the past few pages of this thread, but please forgive me if I miss something.

II. For Reference:

This is the current iteration of my decklist:



I always hesitate presenting this for multiple reasons, not the least of which is my disinterest in change and – by proxy – my disinterest in criticism. That in itself is admittedly a rather hypocritical statement given posts I’ve made in both the past as well as a good chunk of this one, but part of this attitude stems from disagreements I’ve had before about just how “greedy” a deck can be.

And that’s just my particular playstyle. I’ve accepted that all three charms in the list are three-colors and that playing any number of three- or even two-color cards is an inherently risky proposition. Indeed, the high number of three-drops can and sometimes has led to awkward moments on the draw where tapping out leads to disaster. This could be remedied by more instant-speed threats, but Vendilion Clique puts even more strain on an already incredibly stretched-out mana base, Spellstutter Sprite is… eh, and none of the other ones are of any note.

Despite all this, I like the charms for their versatility. Each mode of each charm has proven useful in some manner; even the seldom-used “Destroy target enchantment” and “Distribute two +1/+1 counters…” modes have their uses, and each of them has a mode that improves card quantity/quality. If I were to pick a favorite, it would be Esper Charm, because the “Discard two” option is surprisingly relevant against a large swath of the field.

The question is often brought up, “What if you don’t draw Gifts Ungiven?” and the answer has always been “Hold on a bit longer with the other 56 cards and try to draw it,” which, as many have pointed out, is a bad idea. Actual tutors for Gifts (Merchant Scroll, Mystical Teachings, etcetera) have been discarded as suboptimal due to just being air in the deck where there shouldn’t be any*. And that’s where I think this charm list excels: providing ways to find the titular spell of this deck without sacrificing versatility.

The creatures are both a concession to a budget and something of a burn-deterrent. The Kitchen Finks specifically, I would play Tarmogoyf – or at least try a version with them – if I had access to any, but Kitchen Finks does a lot of the same things while also being a two-for-one against cards not named Path to Exile or Electrolyze (or Slay, I suppose). I am of the opinion that the deck needs creatures and not counterspells, but that’s something I’ll follow up on in section three.

Scavenging Ooze, of course. It’s significantly weaker to removal, but has utility outside of attacking or blocking. I’ve only considered it offhand due to my mana requirements being a bit harder than most, but it is certainly an option.

Thragtusk is my secondary Unburial Rites target for the same reason that Kitchen Finks is the beater of choice: because Burn is a deck (more popular than ever thanks to its strong showing in D.C.), and something slow like this needs those sorts of answers. It is also a two-for-one when it matters. For similar reasons, I would consider Wurmcoil Engine, and if the world had a little less burn in it, I would be playing Grave Titan in a heartbeat.

Speaking of Unburial Rites, I currently don’t think I could cut Elesh Norn from the deck. She generates so many free wins, even sometimes in game ones where she should be boarded out. By herself, it’s a huge tempo swing and often puts the opponent on Path, Pulse or bust. With a manland, or Lingering spirits, it’s a two- or three-turn clock.

That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t ever be boarded out, though.

My mana-dork of choice is Sylvan Caryatid, primarily because it allows both a turn three Gifts as well as a manland or shockland tapped into three-drop, depending on the circumstances. The additional point of toughness and hexproof over the next best thing** can and often has made all the difference in the world in both the early and late game.

Other than that, it’s a fairly standard midrange/control hybrid, with Lingering Souls and Lilianas and a swath of removal and a fistful of disruption. I’ve been largely happy with it, though the sideboard is a continuous work-in-progress (Spellskite is on my buy-list, for example). Sure, it’s almost greedy as Dante’s third circle, but it’s not so greedy that it falls on its face every other game.

Still gets wrecked by an unanswered Blood Moon though. Maybe we should work on that mono-Blue list.

*Only Merchant Scroll was ever discussed (and even then in only two or three posts nine months ago), but I’m working under the assumption that Mystical Teachings would therefore be similarly useless by way of costing four mana.

**Kidding! Please don’t kill me.

III. Problems:

Answers in the current Modern format are bad.

Well…

Reactive answers in the current Modern format are bad. It pains me to admit it, but it’s true. There’s so much proactivity in the format that any attempt at slowing the game down turns into the equivalent of pushing against a runaway train to try and keep it from going off the rails. With such a high power level, a lot of cards played these days turn into either “must deal with” for the control player in the matchup, or “must push through” for the beatdown†.

Countering a spell is no longer a stabilizing play, because the decks that want to play counterspells are unable to further their own gameplan in any sort of efficient manner, which in turn allows the beatdown player time to rebuild and press forwards.

If I were to play a counterspell, it would be Remand because it comes the closest to furthering our gameplan while also providing something equivalent to a swing in tempo. But I don’t, because what do you cut? Even with a list where three to four cards can’t be framed as “Limited all-star, Modern Jank,” it’s difficult to produce a list that pushes for the exact same game against decks with spells that normally necessitate a counter.

This gets even worse with the realization that the “fairer” threats are twofold: a horde of 1/1 flyers, or a series of 4/5s of varying utility. Both of these require different answers, most of which can’t merely be solved by a single card. The best card currently able to fight through Lingering Souls is Lingering Souls, while Siege Rhino can only truly be matched in parity by another Siege Rhino. Sure, decks can be designed to fight through both of these, like multiple lists in this topic, but the problem is just the variety of the threat. Cards like Golgari Charm and Darkblast can easily deal with tiny 1/1s, but fare poorly against, say Tasigur. Path to Exile and Murderous Cut can do work against Siege Rhino and its ilk, but those aren’t good answers to a Lingering Souls.

So where does that leave us? Maelstrom Pulse‡, and Damnation, which I’m always surprised I don’t see more of. They answer everything (outside maybe Keranos) as efficiently one can hope for. They’re not perfect, (though Snapcaster // Pusle // Damnation // Removal Spell is one spicy pile) but in this sort of metagame, they’re what’s left.

I suppose I can sort of understand where these misplaced spells went. Besides Midrange and its ilk of sub-strategies, the rest of the format has shaken itself into primarily decks that would rather disregard their opponent entirely‡†. Beating those sorts of decks with this sort of deck requires forcing interaction on them, and neither Pulse nor Damnation can do that.

Though perhaps what the deck truly needs is five or more copies of Lingering Souls. Those things are everywhere.

†This isn’t the same as the “sideboard full of hate” that’s currently being written about by higher-level players and also irrelevant to this particular post/ramble.

‡No, I’m not currently playing Pulse in my seventy-five. Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be.

‡†This was written before Grand Prix Vancouver, which may present an entirely different metagame set, though I have little doubt that the core tenet will remain the same.

IV. Alternatives

Way back when Wild Nacatl ruled the format and Treasure Cruise was only the faintest whisper in R&D’s collective consciousness, Douglas Linn posted an oft linked-to-by-yours-truly article detailing the prototype of a sort of tap-out control-style deck, using Coalition Relic as a means to ramp from three to six, and most every other card was a two-for-one in some way or another. For the link shy, the list looks like this:



What a greedy deck! – Douglas Linn, 2012

A lot of the card choices are a product of the times. Graveyard-centric decks were more prevalent, Liliana of the Veil was still an odd duck struggling to see any play, and Storm could still play Seething Song. Heck, in the article, Doug mentions that his one-of kill spell, Doom Blade saw play over Go for the Throat and Smother because “sometimes, you must kill Frogmite.”

Other cards aren’t mentioned or played around because they weren’t printed yet. I tried to compile a list of some of the more obvious ones, but I may have missed a few:

Abrupt Decay
Anger of the Gods (less relevant with Birthing Pod’s disappearance, but still noteworthy)
Any number of relevant charms
Keranos, God of Storms
Lingering Souls
Murderous Cut
Onslaught Fetchlands
Restoration Angel
Scavenging Ooze
Siege Rhino
Tasigur, the Golden Fang

The quartet of Coalition Relic means that Blood Moon doesn’t matter as much, while also allowing the high number of five- and six-drops to be played on the crucial turn four. Of course, the introduction of Abrupt Decay makes this card worse, especially in a deck with fewer targets in general, but

Dedicated Gifts piles are pushed to the sideline; the only one featured in the original build is Loam/Crime. I suppose Snapcaster // Rise // Fall // X // X can be construed as a “dedicated pile,” but really it’s casting Gifts for cards you, at some point during the game, will probably want to cast. In the end, it’s just a matter of getting what you need from your deck, whether that’s bombs to get back with Rise, removal to get back with Snapcaster, or even a mix of cards to deal with the grind. In my opinion, this style should be more able to get through a Aven Mindcensor than any other.

Speaking of Rise // Fall, though, that card has continually proven to be nuts. Whether it’s rebuying Snapcaster Mages and evoked Mulldrifters on a slow board or Hymn to Touraching a combo player, it is always semi-relevant. It’s less good now with more enter the battlefield effects (Rhino, namely), but not strictly unplayable and fills a niche this deck needs.

The strategy of the deck overall, therefore, is to one-for-one until you two-for-one, at which point it is possible to chain value together until the opponent is buried in it. Being grindy works against just about every deck but Burn, the various uninteractive creature strategies, and the faster Tron versions, which is where the sideboard comes into play.

The 2012 sideboard is a mess (Venser’s Journal***? Really?) though it is mostly designed to beat the aggressive and combo decks of its day, with cards like Nihil Spellbomb and some extra counterspells to help with disruption, and Tarmogoyfs to accelerate the clock. This is alongside specific pieces of hate for decks of the 2012 metagame which don’t really need comment (though it has been mentioned that Slay might be good enough again).

I’ve always wanted to brew a list similar to the one presented here, because a deck chock to the brim with two-for-ones has always seemed like the best way to grind out the game. But the overlying question, especially with Abrupt Decay so pervasive in Modern, is this:

Is it worth it to discount everything White has to offer – most notably cards like Lingering Souls, Unburial Rites, and Path to Exile – and instead rely on haymakers like Godo, Bandit Warlord, Wurmcoil Engine and Cruel Ultimatum? And is Coalition Relic – a permanent of casting cost three – the best way to go about this?

The important thing to note is that each of these cards solves – or partially solves – the Souls/Rhino problem nicely, either by presenting 6-7 lifelink power and toughness, or a potential eight-for-one while also providing a sizable life swing. Each of these cards is a must-answer, and a large portion of current removal doesn’t work on a one-for-one basis.

With that in mind, here’s what I’m currently testing on Cockatrice:



This iteration still has some issues. The Mana Leaks (and the counterspells in the board) need to be something else, but I’m not sure what yet; the manabase is still a little wonky – so much so that I may similarly revert to Reflecting Pool; the sideboard is still pretty weird; and the overall feel of the deck is a bit off, but so far I’ve been enjoying it. I haven’t done quite enough testing to comment directly on most of the cards that haven’t already been mentioned, unfortunately – this part is more an introduction to where I am so far in the process – so hopefully a lot of the card choices match either common thinking or what this spiel has told you of me as a player and deck builder.

***I couldn't tell you why that image isn't showing up.

V. Coda

As multiple people have mentioned, traditional, reactive control decks are either dead or dying. They still have their ardent supporters, but it’s become more and more apparent that the only reasons to hold up mana on the opponent’s turn are the Twin matchup, an early Gifts Ungiven (and even then it’s a little questionable), and the random Blood Moon out of the sideboard.

That doesn’t mean that control as an archetype should be put into a similar pile. People often fail to make the distinction between sorcery-speed control styles and the instant-speed reactive mess that a lot of Modern control decks are right now. Tap-out control allows for proactivity without sacrificing stability, and helps combat disruption by playing threat after threat. I’m not saying that either of these decks I’ve presented are the epitome of that, but to all the people still playing some sort of control list, what exactly are you trying to get out of that?

I couldn’t tell you why I wrote 4007 poorly edited words (including deck lists and BBC shenanigans) to ramble my way to a point that could have been made in a paragraph or two. And I apologize for disrupting the current discussion (even if I disagree with it. Seriously, Squadron Hawk? I haven’t seen effective graveyard hate outside of exactly Scavenging Ooze)****.

Maybe I'm just too verbose for my own good.

-r

****EDIT: As I was finishing this up, I noticed a new discussion forming over an Aggro Loam deck. While I’m all for that, I can’t see anything technically wrong with the list (Academy Ruins // Engineered Explosives is something I feel is too slow, but that’s nitpicking), I wouldn’t try to push Iona // Rites in a deck that only has three Lilianas and a Raven’s Crime for discard outlets.

So in response to this current influx of newer players asking how to alter their Pod Decks to become 4C Gifts decks, and I was tempted to reply "-75 Pod Deck // + 75 Gifts Deck // [/sarcasm]" and call it a day, but then I realized that would be a bit too rude for even my standards for the internet. Then I was going to make a rather long post comparing the midrange strategies and how they grind out wins, but that turned out to be too like the primer that I'm sure you've all read over at least twice now.

So instead I'm going to post some "required reading." Not all of it is on this specific deck; there's some that's more based in the theory behind it including one that is entirely deck building and play theory, but - given the nature of the deck - is something I feel to be necessary. I'll go into more detail with each link.

"Gifts Rock In Modern" by Daniel Unwin
This is the only article of the four that doesn't really hold up under current standards of scrutiny. I'm not saying the deck listed is a bad deck, but I am saying that a majority of the match-ups Unwin deems important or popular enough to give sideboards for don't exist. I also contest the number of 6+ CMC creatures, and Maelstrom Pulse is a bit outdated, but otherwise is a good introduction to those wanting to take the creature route.

"4 Color Gifts Control In Modern" by Paul Cheon
Again with the Maelstrom Pulse! This one is a little more forgivable as the list given is definitely a control list (see title), even going as far as to run a pair of Mana Leaks and a Negate in the sideboard, eschewing the standard (heh) mana dorks to do so. There was a lot of discussion when this article and its decklist were first posted, but that didn't really go anywhere.
Overall, it's got a sideboarding guide for a lot of more common match-ups these days, though I disagree with Tron having any relevant strategy other than "Pray."

"A Modern Top 8 With Coalition Relic: A Tournament Report And Primer" by Douglas Linn
This is my favorite Magic article, possibly ever. I know I posted it a page or two ago, and have posted it repeatedly before then and probably will again in the future, but when an article single-handedly gets you into a specific archetype, reposting it a billion times is just something you do.
The list is a mess held together by seven cards: Four Coalition Relic and Three(!) Gifts Ungiven. While outdated (the article was posted in January of 2012), it spends a majority of its time talking strategy in broad terms rather than sideboard guides, which gives it a timeless feel. Ever since this article was posted, I've always thought about coming back and trying to make this style of list work again.

"The Danger of Cool Things" by Chad Ellis
This is one of Starcity's many reruns of old Dojo articles, mostly taking the strategy ones that could apply to almost any time. This one in particular emphasizes not playing to win in the fanciest way possible, but just to win. Generally, I bring this up whenever new tech is introduced that I staunchly disagree with (Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, for example), mostly because decks with more than two colors seem to attract those kind of "have you tired [sic] this?"

I can't really help you guys rebuild your Pod decks from the ground up, mostly because my personal list is full of so many weird cards that I like that no one else seems to*. But I do hope that these four articles help you in some way, because it really is great that all you guys are playing the other four mana tutor now.

-r

*Despite the irony of the paragraph above, I've continually tested certain cards in hopes that someone else will pick them up when I'm confident in their ability to be used. It's similar to how many people disagree with Dull's Birds/Knights list, though I still respect Dull and their semi-unorthodox choices**.

**Not to imply that I don't respect a majority of the people on this thread or their particular tastes in deck construction.

So the ban list updated.

I'm not complaining, partly because I don't tend to complain about things like this - maybe a moment of silence or two for decks now past, but never true complaints - and partly because, well, the worst thing I had to do was -1 Dig Through Time, +1 Junk Charm.

Other than that, I'm not sure what direction I want to head with this deck. The marquee card is Siege Rhino, which BUG Charm doesn't deal with at all, so do I cut it? For what? Do I cut Kitchen Finks and just Rhino people to death?

I suppose a lot of these questions stem from me completely ignoring the GP+-level metagame for a while now. I've always been confident in my (and my deck's) ability to contend with midrange-esque strategies, which it generally has. If midrange is supposed to be the top dog now, I guess I'm ready. Though if no one is playing Restoration Angel's anymore, I may have to switch up my super secret sideboard tech.

And I guess if all else fails, I can try Tap-out Coalition Control

I went 2-3 Drop at a recent SCG Premier IQ playing the following:



It’s nothing to write home about (That is to say, I haven’t known anything to write home about, so this is nothing to write home about). The sideboard, of course, is different - possibly sub-standard, but I liked and used the majority of it. Especially:

Sun Droplet. Every time this card came out on turn two, I proceeded to win the game. It provoked poorly-timed Skullcracks, it allowed me at least three extra turns I wouldn’t have had without it, and, for those that enjoy “style points,” had to be read at least five times by my opponents. As an anecdote, I remember playing game three against a Burn opponent who, on the draw, suspended a Rift Bolt for his turn one play. I played a land, Droplet, go, and went on to win the game at 22 life (Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk helped out too).

On the other side of the coin, though, was Plumeveil, which is disappointing because I’ve been championing this card for a while now. I still like the card, but I do have to agree with everyone that says it may be too slow. I maintain that the color requirement isn’t a problem, however.

***

In terms of main-deck cards, I had a couple notes on some of the cards you all are discussing:

The Loam-Crime lock isn’t the best, in that I think it needs to be sided out against a majority of the metagame, but I encountered a non-zero number of times where the cards weren’t dead in hand, so I will be keeping them in the main 60.

I didn’t draw Liliana of the Veil enough to evaluate her. I will say that I would never cut Lingering Souls. A large majority of the games I won were off the (flash)back of four flying spirits.

I’ve reconsidered, and I don’t really like Dig Through Time in this deck, for reasons I’m finding difficult to articulate. I’ll keep testing, but I may go back to Junk Charm.

***

As for suggestions on Cheon’s list from however long ago it was, there aren't much better suggestions than practice. Get your reps in, know what standard piles you have, when to use them, and so forth. It may take a bit of practice - okay, probably a lot of practice, but most versions of the deck allow the ability to combat most scenarios, from the problem-removing to the game-winning to everything in between.

Quote from dull »

I think the effect of Dig Through Time is much stronger than the effect of Treasure Cruise in this deck, the only question is whether or not we can reliably get UU when it's time to cast Dig.

I like to think that we can. I mean, I'm apparently this thread's resident greedy bastard, but it's all a matter of keeping possible topdecks in mind when playing out mana during the opening turns. I admit it's a big ask to have BB turn three, UU turn four, with a healthy mix of G and W thrown in there as well (especially if you're like me and run Kitchen Finks main). That being said, if you're mindful of the cards in your hand and play to your outs (again, keeping in mind the possibility that you could draw Dig Through Time or similar double mana card), it shouldn't be that hard.

I will admit, all this comes from multiple goldfished hands and three games against Scapeshift combo, so take my opinions, as always, with a grain of salt. I would rather run Dig Through Time than Treasure Cruise though.

I'm thinking a few counterspells over the maindeck discard might be a good choice now. Maybe 2/1 Mana Leak/Remand, and maybe a maindeck Negate as the fourth? I felt that our Delver matchup before Cruise was quite even, so we should have a good chance against them if we can stop the Cruises.

My view on Delver matchups is that we are Nic Fit and they are, well, Delver. For those not in the know, the general matchup plays like a grind, except where the Delver player has cantrips and Dazes and other mana-efficient whatnot, the Nic Fit player uses Veteran Explorer to ramp into bombs like Archangel of Thune, Thragtusk, and/or Grave Titan. Sure, the Delver player can just win (to quote the primer on The Source, "they get 'delver hands'"), but any sort of failure to curve out or disrupt on Delver's part pushes the Nic Fit player ahead.

In Modern, we do have the extra problem of shocking ourselves whenever we try to play on-tempo. Now, I'm a proponent of fetchlands being Lava Darts rather than Lightning Bolts, so the tempo game is not on my side here, but if we can even remotely stabilize against them, I don't think it matters how many extra cards they draw unless it's "bolt, bolt, Forked Bolt and let's be honest, not a lot of things would have beaten that draw, Treasure Cruise or no. I suppose it could be argued that Cruise just expedited the process, but that's something I'd rather reserve for the Banned List thread.

In terms of actual burn, I'm toying with the idea of siding in Sun Droplets. It's not pretty, as Burn generally has four plus pieces of artifact hate to bring in, but combined with the aforementioned Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk, it becomes very hard for them to win. I hadn't considered Chalice of the Void, though. That's something I'll have to think about.

I'll plug my Notion Thief sideboard tech again.

Sometimes, I forget how awesome that card is. Then someone casts it in response to a wheel effect in EDH and I remember.

Went 4-1 last Friday during my LGS’s monthly (I don't complain as much as I should) Modern tournament with the following list:

A few notes:

• I beat Werewolves, Mono White Humans, Melira Pod, and Dega, losing to a Blue/White Venser deck featuring Sundial of the Infinite. I made a couple mistakes during that game, mostly involving misjudging how many counterspells he was actually playing (the answer was something like 3), as well as a poor mulligan decision game 2.
• I expected there to be more (read: more than zero) burn players there, something that is normal for the local metagame. It turns out all of the players either did not show up or decided to draft Khans of Tarkir. I can’t say I fault them for it, though if I had known, I would have cut Thragtusk, and put Mulldrifter back in. I missed it on multiple occasions throughout the tournament.
• My list is still as greedy as it has ever been, though the greed has been slightly lessened by the cutting of Worm Harvest. It just began underperforming after I cut Thirst for Knowledge for the BUG charm, and just became progressively worse in testing. I still miss it.
• I only experienced mana troubles one game against Humans. My board was Creeping Tar Pit, Overgrown Tomb, Hallowed Fountain (or something similar), a hand of four(!) Gifts and a Darkblast against his board of weenies. It happens.
• I was always able to get all of my colors. On a related note, I am going to continue on my crusades for Murmuring Bosk and Plumeveil. Still good cards, guys.
• On a related related(?) note, Murderous Cut is also a really good card.

Overall, the deck performed as well as could be expected given the play of its pilot. Current changes for next time (aside from the aforementioned Mulldrifter in metas where Burn isn’t the majority of the metagame) include:
-1 Flooded Strand; +1 Windswept Heath
-1 Eternal Witness; +1 Snapcaster Mage (as soon as it comes in the mail)
-1 Engineered Explosives -1 Abrupt Decay; +2 Liliana of the Veil (as soon as I find 120 USD lying on the street.)
Sideboard: -1 Sun Droplet; +1 Engineered Explosives

On Delve:

Murderous Cut's aforementioned "good card-ness" changed my opinions on Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. While I still can't say I like Treasure Cruise that much - the randomness of the three cards and lack of cheap ways to generate a graveyard contribute to that, I am thinking about Dig Through Time again. I'm not sure when I would be playing it for the "full two", but I can imagine it at three or four. Maybe I just don't play enough fetchlands. Maybe I just need to play the freaking card.

Although, if Treasure Cruise does turn out to be good, that's awesome and I will celebrate it with the rest of you.

-r

No love for Gifts into Esper/Junk/BUG/X? I'm planning on running that as my split -- each one has those subtle advantages and disadvantages that you mentioned. Besides, if we're going to be greedy with our choice of three-mana spells, I think we should just go all the way.

I do admit that Junk Charm's third ability is nigh-useless in most situations, though Tarmogoyf builds will appreciate being able to win Goyf fights and my Finks build will appreciate the resets. Besides reducing a turn off of the clock, those are the only scenarios I can imagine the third bullet-point ever being chosen.

Night's Whisper has always seen fringe play (and by "fringe," I mean that Paul Cheon played it once). The second mode on Junk Charm is similar in function: passable card advantage. But while Night's Whisper is two mana and a single colored source, Junk Charm is three and three, making it similar to Esper Charm, but with different side-effects.

The first mode, in my opinion, is the point of contention. Would I rather Smite the Monstrous (but different because reasons) or Ultimate Price? I think the answer is the latter -- the cases where the former is better are, while not unimaginable, will almost certainly come up with less frequency.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while I don't disagree with you that BUG Charm is better, I also think that there is probably space in the main for both of them, as well as Esper Charm. Sure, we have to be greedy to even think about running that split, especially with the Liliana of the Veils and/or other spells also jammed in there. But the name of the game (for me) is versatility over greed with this deck, and if that means that a not-as-good card gets to sneak in as one of the flex slots, then so be it.

I recognize this as possibly being one of those "Dangerously Cool Things," but I'm at least going to be testing it to find out.

-r

PS: I've been running a single Unravel the Æther in the board as a way to deal with troublesome finishers that people keep wanting to run like Keranos or Batterskull. It hasn't quite worked out (the one opponent who could have ran a problem card decided not to board in his Batterskull, mostly because he wanted to next-level me), but I'm going to keep testing it to find out for sure. I definitely wouldn't play Utter End.

First, I agree with what other people are saying about the match-up, and I also admit that most of my games against Mono-U Tron have been while I was not playing to the best of my ability, which showed through either keeping hands that I knew were terrible, but didn’t care otherwise, or taking the wrong card with discard, or simply poor evaluation of the gamestate. In the majority of the games, he always drew both a copy of Wurmcoil Engine and a copy of Mindslaver.

So yeah, variance is a thing.

Second:

Quote from dull »

How do you guys feel about the new delve cards?

Murderous Cut: Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I mentioned that I was going to test it, probably cutting either Slaughter Pact or Path to Exile. That being said, my current reading of the card is that it will most likely cost two or three rather than the one mana that everyone keeps claiming it will be. That doesn’t mean that it won’t be good (or, at least, above average), I wouldn’t be testing it if I thought it was good, but Path and Pact both have large advantages that also must be kept in mind.

Empty the Pits: In what format? In Limited? Sure, it’s insane if you have four black in a triple-colored format and haven’t delved yet. In Standard? Well, Urborg is a thing, I guess. In Modern? The only deck I can think of that could ever get four black is The Obliterator Special, which has enough finishers that it doesn’t need another one.

Dig Through Time: I really want to like this and Treasure Cruise. I really do. Both of them just feel inherently powerful and the fact that they have Delve makes me immediately jump to the best possible scenarios. But that won’t happen, and we know that won’t happen. Six or seven useless cards in the graveyard is a pipe dream, especially post-board where the only hate that doesn’t make the cards completely unplayable is Grafdigger’s Cage. In the cases where that many cards doesn’t happen, we should be winning already, because:
a) They’re stuck in a Loam-Crime lock
b) We’ve drawn a decent portion of our removal and they’re just out of threats
c) They’re playing mill
The only reason I’m okay with Murderous Cut is because it’s easy to get two cards in the ‘yard, at which point it becomes Murder, which, while subpar, isn’t the worst. Any further and it becomes Doom Blade but better. With two cards, both Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise still cost six mana, and both of them are terrible cards at six mana.

Also Disdainful Stroke? Might contend with Negate in the board (though it's completely garbage in the main).

My instincts say no, but I’ve been wrong on card selections before. Cards like Negate and Mana Leak, or even Flashfreeze, just seem so much better against the field than it. Don’t really have much more to say about it. It’s not bad, per se, it’s just worse.

-r

Quote from BatHickey »

I am less excited about the charms, and more excited about the mana base. access to fetches should decrease the usefulness of blood moon in the mta, and improves our mana slightly. I would like to try 9 fetches (4 verdant, 4 polluted delta, 1 marsh flats), I've said this already, but misty not finding godless shrine is annoying and flats not finding breeding pool is also frustrating. Delta doesn't find the least two sought after basics, and only doesn't find temple garden, which is a subtle but notable improvement in my typical lists.

Oh definitely. I could be lauding the fact that the manabase will soon be as perfect as we could hope for without a cycle of painless, untapped Murmuring Bosks or something, or that I'm going to draft ALL THE KHANS or something silly like that, but everyone's doing that, and I don't want to sing more choir songs when solo a capellas are just so much more fun.

Even if I do tend to be incredibly flat by the end of the song (tortured analogy).

I see nothing wrong with finks, but its not worth the slot in a lot of matchups. I am looking at aven riftwatcher for the sideboard.

Fixed that for you. I kept thinking Aven Mindcensor or Riftsweeper. Then I looked it up. Seems pretty good, though I think I currently prefer being able to block twice rather than being able to block fliers and being better against Path to Exile.

I'll think about it.

I do wonder about changing one shock to a blood crypt and just running carytids to play a godo/batterskull package. I've been doing a lot of work on my list to declunkify it, so sick of drawing or giftsing and having to get rid of norn/rites in some part from my hand and dying one mana short of being able to win because of it. If you're looking for a spoiler, look for something to fix this. I'd love an a reprint of impulse.

I did have to Raven's Crime myself to get an Elesh Norn into the graveyard a couple weeks ago. Didn't feel very good, but at least I won that game. Thirst for Knowledge helps (I can't ring the card-draw bell enough), though I'm down to one and it's not looking like it's going to stay in with the new charms being what they are.

Test a murderous cut, it'll probably be good at the same time that it stops being ramp when you path to exile a creature. The more white you can cut the better. Will it be better than darkblast or just go for the throat is right now?

I'd like to compare it to Slaughter Pact actually, though I know that's not entirely the case. Pact fills a niche that can't be filled by other cards (feigning defenselessness), while Murderous Cut is "just" another one-mana kill spell. I'm not sure if it can always be better than Path to Exile, especially because it won't always cost one mana, but I'm going to at least try it. Besides, singletons are what make the deck exciting.

***

Quote from Tempest753 »

[...] how does anyone beat U-tron in this deck ever? I played with a friend of mine this past weekend and we played like 5-6 games. I only managed to win 1 after killing a sundering titan and then beating down with a snapcaster mage + tar pit while he flooded out. [...] the Tron matchups feel pretty weak in general and especially the mono-u tron matchup. I'm guessing that the proper response to tron is just playing more counterspells right?

I beat a tron deck once... *Sighs wistfully*

Like most bad match-ups, it comes down to how quickly you can resolve Gifts Ungiven. Turn three? And they don't have a counterspell? Great! The standard Life from the Loam package just wrecks them. If that doesn't happen, though, you get put on the back foot by literally anything big they play, and then you just lose.

Of course, cards can help. Path to Exile keeps Wurmcoil Engine from becoming both Wurm and Coil, proper use of graveyard hate can get around their end-goal of slaver-locking you, but Tron is one of the few decks, if not [u]the[/card] that has a better late-game than us. We're the beatdown in this scenario, and, frankly, we suck at it here. This is one of those match-ups that people advocating for Tarmogoyf cite, and they aren't wrong.

I don't think counterspells are what this deck needs against Tron. Fighting Tron requires proaction, not reaction, especially in the control-heavy builds like Mono-U.

Lastly I think I figured out the UWR Kiki matchup. I think in the past I just played too cautiously, recently I've just been running out threats like lilianas early to draw out counterspells and then trying to finish by overloading my opponents mana with end step gifts and then untap + threat. The matchup still seems rough, but more like a true 50-50 matchup now than it seemed in the past. Trying to play the draw-go game with UWR just lets them get tons of mana and play threats while leaving up counterspells; not good.

Glad to see I'm not as crazy as I thought I was.

Edit: Just reread my original post on the match-up. I'm still crazy.