I came here because I was stoked to read "exile target creature" on a 1U instant card. However the more I think about it, the less I see its place in Modern.
I'd say the best use of the card is on a big creature cast my a control deck or combo deck if its their main comboey win condition. (ie Tron's Wurmcoil Engine) The reasons for this are simple.
The 2/2 is much smaller than the targeted creature.
The 2/2 you are giving them is not relevant because you're most likely not under pressure.
These decks run less creatures so you're not drawing them a card.
This removal cost 2 mana. There's a reason why Terminates and Doom Blades aren't all over the place. (yes I know this exiles)
For these same reasons, the card gets significantly worse against aggro. Early game, if you spend 2 whole manas on removal that nets them a 2/2 + potentially another creature when you try to bolt that 2/2.. you just gave them some nice card advantage. You spent 2 cards and they still have that creature on board.
I think the best argument for this card is that it's a tempo card but so is Vapor Snag. In theory "exile" is much better than bounce but in practice, considering the deck these two cards would be played in, they are pretty similar effect.
All in all, I'd hate to see this slow and risky card when I'm facing aggro... yet it seems like a nice answer to some very problematic cards... Like Iona? So where does it fit? Sideboard?
His +2 doesn't protect you from reach or alternate win conditions.
His -2 is expensive (5 mana) and sorcery speed. it's also conditional.
His 0 happens to be vulnerable to Path to Exile, a card that otherwise is stuck in your opponent's hand.
Sorry if this post isn't as constructive as it should be but...
How does a deck stacking Esper Charms over Think Twices survives against the pressure of burn and ur delver? Disfigure seems really good but at the same time it's not the kind of card that you can easily main deck four of like bolt.
Control decks are dependant on the meta in order to react accordingly. When it's time to choose black or red as the third color, it seems red is better against small creatures while black is better against combo and control (thoughtseize.. and in this case esper charm).
I don't understand running less than 4 Snapcasters. Yes they also use the graveyard and it's a 3-4 mana card most of the time but it's still super versatile. If you delayed your Treasure Cruise with it you probably had a good turn anyway. If your cruise draws you into Snapcasters, the card advantage from Cruise gets you something to flashback later with Snapcaster. I don't think it's too greedy to run both.
URw delver seems to be about which white cards you want to splash for. To me that has to be Path to Exile. It's the biggest weakness of being UR, not being able to deal with bigger creatures.
UR is just a stack of 1 toughness creatures. Of course you can protect this with counters but there are limitations to that plan. With UR being to top deck, cards like forked bolt and pyroclasm becomes popular. White has stuff like Restoration Angel and Brimaz that become a problem for any deck that rely too much on Red for its removal. I feel like this pushes me closer to UWR Flash.. however I think the two Delve draw spells are better along less lands and more cantrips.. this is why UWR control and flash aren't so good.
That said, UR Delver is quite good at playing the control game. Throwing a number of Path to Exile in there makes it even better in that aspect. My idea is to sacrifice some explosiveness of UR Delver in order to add some flashiness into it. This also allows you to play less sorcery speed things and more instants. A more control deck that still works with cantrips, low land count, delver and Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time.
Peek is because I most likely don't want to pay that much life for Gitaxian Probe while running 11 fetches. The instant speed also makes it more versatile and more usable with Snapcaster Mage.
Like I said above, the list is less explosive but doesn't require tapping out as much. So no Young Pyro, no Swiftspear.. but more instant speed removal and I think the life gain on Helix makes a difference when a faster deck is trying to race you. Meanwhile the plan is to have a (hopefully) harder to deal with Restoration Angel finish the game along with your burn, snapcaster burn kind of plays.
I think I prefer the Dig Through Time for its instant speed. Since we run more lands it shouldn't be a problem to pay UU or 1UU at the end of turn somewhere.
Boros Charm seems awesome. Obviously it's a nice piece of burn... but in a proactive deck, it's a Counterspell against most removal, even Abrupt Decay. Unfortunately it doesn't work against Path to Exile. Its use against Liliana can be quite interesting too. I don't think the double strike has any use since it puts you at a 2 for 1 risk if the creature gets path'd or whatever. You'll most likely never deal more than 4 damage with the double strike mode either. However I guess there are very narrow cases of using it defensively to trade with a bigger creature.. but this is mostly negligible. I think running 3 colors + Gitaxian Probe + Lynx requires you to invest many life in your mana base. Because of that, Lightning Helix seems much better than Boros Charm but if you can find room for more 2 mana spells, the charm seems really interesting.
Is it me or Monastery Swiftspear doesn't feel right in this deck?
I like the extra punch with the new fetchlands and bringing back Steppe Lynx but unlike the Elemental Shotgun decks, this deck won't be able to have 3 power often on Monastery. I think I like some Snapcaster Mage better, even with the Cruises. A 2 mana flash 2/1 can be a threat comparable to Monastery Swiftspear in some situations. I see that the list is also loaded with spells you usually don't want to use Snapcaster Mage with, like the cantrips, Treasure Cruise and more 2 mana spells. (only 7 non-cantrip 1 mana spells due to know Spell Snare) But that flashbacked Helix can be incredible good.
At first sight I think I'd be willing to drop 1-2 Treasure Cruise to be playing the 4 Snapcasters. By making one of the Treasure Cruise a Thought Scour you also help your other Cruises...
With blue cards in the deck I think it's safe to replace Night's Whisper. It's a 2 for 1 but it's 2 mana at sorcery speed.
Alternatives could be Esper Charm. 3 mana but it's an instant and it's more versatile.
Treasure's Cruise. With the other cantrips and cheap spells this seems like a 2-of in every delver decks now.
The 4th Remand could also be interesting here.
Go for the Throat is going to be pretty bad against Affinity. Doom Blade might be better. Or Smother.
I think decks in Modern need 1 mana creature removal. The counterspells aren't as good when you're on the draw and while Sultai Charm and Maelstorm Pulse provides versatile removal, it's 3 mana for a 1 for 1 spell.
Stubborn Denial seems worse than Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. It's the kind of card that will be amazing at stopping a planeswalker or key spell every once in a while when it's not expected but it will remain a dead card in your hand the rest of the time. How do you handle creature decks?
Dismember is a card I've largely overlooked that will definitely be in the sideboard and should probably be a 1-2 of in the maindeck. The plan against creature decks is Abrupt Decay/Sultai Charm/Maelstrom Pulse/countermagic + Snapcaster Mage and brickwalling with Tarmogoyf while my evasive threats push through damage.
Both Spell Snare and Spell Pierce have exactly the same problems as Stubborn Denial. They are very good when they're good, and totally useless when they aren't. The reason I chose Stubborn Denial is it has the possibility to be a hard counter in conjunction with Tarmogoyf. That isn't to say it is the right card though. I'm personally not a big fan of Spell Snare (Pod going mana dork into turn 2 pod makes you look like a fool for running it), but both it and Pierce warrant testing.
Yes Snare can be pretty underwhelming sometimes... like against Living End, Tron, Pod/Aether Vial. But it's a one mana "NO!" to so many staples in modern. Bob, Tiago, Goyf, Ooze, Mana Leak, Remand, Cranial Plating, Ravager, Young Pyro, a bunch of spells in Burn. I guess Stubborn Denial has some interesting reach too like Blood Moon, Shackles, Pod itself (note that it's a blank against that whole deck aside from Pod and Chord), Combo cards (scapeshift, twin.. as long as you got other counters to support it) I still find it too narrow... and you are suggesting 3 of them! I think even 3 Spell Snares could be too much.
About disfigure, I think it's a nice black bolt. Funeral Charm is also comparable except it reaches even less creatures. I suggested Dismember because it's pretty much a Path to Exile.
All in all, I feel Lightning Bolt is such a crucial part of delver decks that Grixis might be the 3 color delver deck with black. Green with goyf seems to be closer to a midrange deck. Sultai Charm at 3 mana probably fits that archetype better too. You're not going to be dropping your delver on turn 1 as much as UR wants to. This deck simply is slower than any UR delver shell. That would be one more reason to ditch the Stubborn Denial. You also have discard that plays a similar role more reliably.
Anyway, all this is pure speculation from me since I did not try the deck.
I think decks in Modern need 1 mana creature removal. The counterspells aren't as good when you're on the draw and while Sultai Charm and Maelstorm Pulse provides versatile removal, it's 3 mana for a 1 for 1 spell.
Stubborn Denial seems worse than Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. It's the kind of card that will be amazing at stopping a planeswalker or key spell every once in a while when it's not expected but it will remain a dead card in your hand the rest of the time. How do you handle creature decks?
Why only 3 pyromancers? The list seems a little threat-light, though I guess with cruise you're much more able to find the burn to finish them off late.
Pyromancer is kind of a bomb in this deck but it requires some setup. While the 2nd one is a good draw later on, you don't want to draw 2-3 YP too early and not have spells.
The list that was suggested also includes more card draw via Treasure Cruise. Some people are also trying to add Thoughtscour in there. This change makes the deck draw into more gas more consistently. You end up finding your Young Pyromancer. The same logic could be applied to Snapcaster Mage since the card usually costs 3-4 mana but it's too strong to not run 4.
I can only see Hooting Mandrills in Modern if there's a non-blue (Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are better uses of your Delve), non-Bob (hello, lose 6 life) deck that can support it. I currently can't think of any right now.
That would be Naya Zoo. With the new fetches too. I'm not saying this is tier 1 or that they want this card over Goyf but it would be the deck you're talking about.
I searched this thread and was surprised to see no one talking about the addition of Flooded Strand in Modern and it's effect on our mana base. Any thoughts on replacing some number of Seachrome Coasts?
I'm pretty sure Flooded Strands are an upgrade to the Seachrome Coasts. They help you get basics if you suspect a blood moon. Getting a tapped Shock land is the equivalent of playing Seachrome Coasts later in the game but you can have it untapped if desired. There are going to be cases where you need both colors from this land you fetch and need to pay 3 lifes for it but I don't think that outweights the other advantages fetching can provide.
Like someone else mentioned the fetches would also help with the two new drawing spells we're getting. But I'm not sure if UW tron wants them. We already run 8-9 draw spells and there's the Emrakul situation. I assume Dig or Treasure would replace some of the Thirst for Knowledge (which in my experience often draws you one card... since aside from a late or second Signet, you usually need your artifact. Even Map since you can use it later for Eye of Ugin.. or you're usually fighting to keep your Tron intact in game 2-3.. even game 1.) That said I guess I'd like to try 3 Thirst, 1 Dig... I don't know. I'd hate to be stuck on that Dig when I needed a Thirst on turn 3. I think Sphinx's Revelation plays the role of these draw spells in this deck.
I agree about Phyrexian Arena. You have a slower list that relies on removal and discard so 3 mana to draw 2 for the rest of the game seems nice, less versatile than Bob but safer. You might as well build around this.
I know this is getting off topic but yeah.. nice deck. Why 5 discard and so much creature removal? Is it a meta call?
Also, with KTK I notice that you might want to try the Butcher over Olivia. You have Souls, Hero and Brimaz to power it and it survives to bolt. It seems like a good finisher.
Everyone is sticking to the "no goyf" requirement but OP only said he doesn't want to print 20 goyfs. I read this as he wants to promote the format diversity and not only have goyf decks. I assume that should apply to every staples.
That said, since Tarmogoyf is an important part of Modern. At least one deck should showcase it.
Also, Lantern. OP is talking about introducing the format to EDH players. They are not necessarily beginners. And while they might be punting their first game with Storm or Amulet.. or even activating Pod without really knowing what to get with it. It doesn't mean that would push them away from the format. They are magic players. Am I overestimating people when I think that they can gain an even bigger interest in the format if they lose because they did not know the deck well enough? I know I would want to improve myself with such deck if I lost my first game that way. This room for improvement would be a source of motivation. I understand where you're coming from but since I assume the new players would be able to pick one of these 8 decks, those whole will pick a combo deck will know what to expect. Out of 8 decks I would expect 2 of them being more complex combo decks.
Another goal is that the deck are somewhat affordable. I feel this is why 8rack, u tron and burn were suggested in the first place. I know this contradicts the "one goyf deck" idea but there could be an exception.
Pod should be showcased. It's a dominant deck in the format and its Toolbox style is something that comes back in EDH. The deck has combos but doesn't depend on them and while it's hard to pod without knowing your deck list, it's not hard to understand value. It's not a cheap deck, but not the most expensive either Pod itself and many creatures are affordable. Noble and the fetches are driving its price.
Mono U Tron. The cheap option for someone interested in control.
Zoo. The goyf deck that can be built in several ways.
UR Delver and Twin might be a bit redundant but are an important part of Modern. They should pick 1 or 2 spots in the list.
I don't think Burn is interesting because I assume you can be familiar with it without even knowing the format. Burn is a multi format archetype. However I think it should be in if anyone wants to try it against other decks to see how it plays out.
Amulet of Vigor. I know this is fringe but this deck plays cards that aren't played in any other decks. It's great to show diversity. It's also a budget deck. Scapeshift could pick that spot on the list too I guess.
Finally I guess Soul Sisters/Hatebeats/D&T could be interesting to have. It's budget and it's not redundant with other decks I mentioned. Merfolk could also take that spot as the Aether Vial tribe deck.
Well OP, I think you got a nice project and I hope you can make a nice pool of decks for people to try, you can always add more in the future.
I'd say the best use of the card is on a big creature cast my a control deck or combo deck if its their main comboey win condition. (ie Tron's Wurmcoil Engine) The reasons for this are simple.
For these same reasons, the card gets significantly worse against aggro. Early game, if you spend 2 whole manas on removal that nets them a 2/2 + potentially another creature when you try to bolt that 2/2.. you just gave them some nice card advantage. You spent 2 cards and they still have that creature on board.
I think the best argument for this card is that it's a tempo card but so is Vapor Snag. In theory "exile" is much better than bounce but in practice, considering the deck these two cards would be played in, they are pretty similar effect.
All in all, I'd hate to see this slow and risky card when I'm facing aggro... yet it seems like a nice answer to some very problematic cards... Like Iona? So where does it fit? Sideboard?
His -2 is expensive (5 mana) and sorcery speed. it's also conditional.
His 0 happens to be vulnerable to Path to Exile, a card that otherwise is stuck in your opponent's hand.
Too many flaws on a finisher.
How does a deck stacking Esper Charms over Think Twices survives against the pressure of burn and ur delver? Disfigure seems really good but at the same time it's not the kind of card that you can easily main deck four of like bolt.
Control decks are dependant on the meta in order to react accordingly. When it's time to choose black or red as the third color, it seems red is better against small creatures while black is better against combo and control (thoughtseize.. and in this case esper charm).
URw delver seems to be about which white cards you want to splash for. To me that has to be Path to Exile. It's the biggest weakness of being UR, not being able to deal with bigger creatures.
UR is just a stack of 1 toughness creatures. Of course you can protect this with counters but there are limitations to that plan. With UR being to top deck, cards like forked bolt and pyroclasm becomes popular. White has stuff like Restoration Angel and Brimaz that become a problem for any deck that rely too much on Red for its removal. I feel like this pushes me closer to UWR Flash.. however I think the two Delve draw spells are better along less lands and more cantrips.. this is why UWR control and flash aren't so good.
That said, UR Delver is quite good at playing the control game. Throwing a number of Path to Exile in there makes it even better in that aspect. My idea is to sacrifice some explosiveness of UR Delver in order to add some flashiness into it. This also allows you to play less sorcery speed things and more instants. A more control deck that still works with cantrips, low land count, delver and Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time.
My list is a first draft. I barely played it.
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Steam Vents
4 Serum Visions
2 Peek
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Dig Through Time
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
Peek is because I most likely don't want to pay that much life for Gitaxian Probe while running 11 fetches. The instant speed also makes it more versatile and more usable with Snapcaster Mage.
Like I said above, the list is less explosive but doesn't require tapping out as much. So no Young Pyro, no Swiftspear.. but more instant speed removal and I think the life gain on Helix makes a difference when a faster deck is trying to race you. Meanwhile the plan is to have a (hopefully) harder to deal with Restoration Angel finish the game along with your burn, snapcaster burn kind of plays.
I think I prefer the Dig Through Time for its instant speed. Since we run more lands it shouldn't be a problem to pay UU or 1UU at the end of turn somewhere.
Maybe 22 lands would be correct, I'm not sure.
I like the extra punch with the new fetchlands and bringing back Steppe Lynx but unlike the Elemental Shotgun decks, this deck won't be able to have 3 power often on Monastery. I think I like some Snapcaster Mage better, even with the Cruises. A 2 mana flash 2/1 can be a threat comparable to Monastery Swiftspear in some situations. I see that the list is also loaded with spells you usually don't want to use Snapcaster Mage with, like the cantrips, Treasure Cruise and more 2 mana spells. (only 7 non-cantrip 1 mana spells due to know Spell Snare) But that flashbacked Helix can be incredible good.
At first sight I think I'd be willing to drop 1-2 Treasure Cruise to be playing the 4 Snapcasters. By making one of the Treasure Cruise a Thought Scour you also help your other Cruises...
Alternatives could be Esper Charm. 3 mana but it's an instant and it's more versatile.
Treasure's Cruise. With the other cantrips and cheap spells this seems like a 2-of in every delver decks now.
The 4th Remand could also be interesting here.
Go for the Throat is going to be pretty bad against Affinity. Doom Blade might be better. Or Smother.
Yes Snare can be pretty underwhelming sometimes... like against Living End, Tron, Pod/Aether Vial. But it's a one mana "NO!" to so many staples in modern. Bob, Tiago, Goyf, Ooze, Mana Leak, Remand, Cranial Plating, Ravager, Young Pyro, a bunch of spells in Burn. I guess Stubborn Denial has some interesting reach too like Blood Moon, Shackles, Pod itself (note that it's a blank against that whole deck aside from Pod and Chord), Combo cards (scapeshift, twin.. as long as you got other counters to support it) I still find it too narrow... and you are suggesting 3 of them! I think even 3 Spell Snares could be too much.
About disfigure, I think it's a nice black bolt. Funeral Charm is also comparable except it reaches even less creatures. I suggested Dismember because it's pretty much a Path to Exile.
All in all, I feel Lightning Bolt is such a crucial part of delver decks that Grixis might be the 3 color delver deck with black. Green with goyf seems to be closer to a midrange deck. Sultai Charm at 3 mana probably fits that archetype better too. You're not going to be dropping your delver on turn 1 as much as UR wants to. This deck simply is slower than any UR delver shell. That would be one more reason to ditch the Stubborn Denial. You also have discard that plays a similar role more reliably.
Anyway, all this is pure speculation from me since I did not try the deck.
I think decks in Modern need 1 mana creature removal. The counterspells aren't as good when you're on the draw and while Sultai Charm and Maelstorm Pulse provides versatile removal, it's 3 mana for a 1 for 1 spell.
Stubborn Denial seems worse than Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. It's the kind of card that will be amazing at stopping a planeswalker or key spell every once in a while when it's not expected but it will remain a dead card in your hand the rest of the time. How do you handle creature decks?
Pyromancer is kind of a bomb in this deck but it requires some setup. While the 2nd one is a good draw later on, you don't want to draw 2-3 YP too early and not have spells.
The list that was suggested also includes more card draw via Treasure Cruise. Some people are also trying to add Thoughtscour in there. This change makes the deck draw into more gas more consistently. You end up finding your Young Pyromancer. The same logic could be applied to Snapcaster Mage since the card usually costs 3-4 mana but it's too strong to not run 4.
That would be Naya Zoo. With the new fetches too. I'm not saying this is tier 1 or that they want this card over Goyf but it would be the deck you're talking about.
I'm pretty sure Flooded Strands are an upgrade to the Seachrome Coasts. They help you get basics if you suspect a blood moon. Getting a tapped Shock land is the equivalent of playing Seachrome Coasts later in the game but you can have it untapped if desired. There are going to be cases where you need both colors from this land you fetch and need to pay 3 lifes for it but I don't think that outweights the other advantages fetching can provide.
Like someone else mentioned the fetches would also help with the two new drawing spells we're getting. But I'm not sure if UW tron wants them. We already run 8-9 draw spells and there's the Emrakul situation. I assume Dig or Treasure would replace some of the Thirst for Knowledge (which in my experience often draws you one card... since aside from a late or second Signet, you usually need your artifact. Even Map since you can use it later for Eye of Ugin.. or you're usually fighting to keep your Tron intact in game 2-3.. even game 1.) That said I guess I'd like to try 3 Thirst, 1 Dig... I don't know. I'd hate to be stuck on that Dig when I needed a Thirst on turn 3. I think Sphinx's Revelation plays the role of these draw spells in this deck.
I know this is getting off topic but yeah.. nice deck. Why 5 discard and so much creature removal? Is it a meta call?
Also, with KTK I notice that you might want to try the Butcher over Olivia. You have Souls, Hero and Brimaz to power it and it survives to bolt. It seems like a good finisher.
That said, since Tarmogoyf is an important part of Modern. At least one deck should showcase it.
Also, Lantern. OP is talking about introducing the format to EDH players. They are not necessarily beginners. And while they might be punting their first game with Storm or Amulet.. or even activating Pod without really knowing what to get with it. It doesn't mean that would push them away from the format. They are magic players. Am I overestimating people when I think that they can gain an even bigger interest in the format if they lose because they did not know the deck well enough? I know I would want to improve myself with such deck if I lost my first game that way. This room for improvement would be a source of motivation. I understand where you're coming from but since I assume the new players would be able to pick one of these 8 decks, those whole will pick a combo deck will know what to expect. Out of 8 decks I would expect 2 of them being more complex combo decks.
Another goal is that the deck are somewhat affordable. I feel this is why 8rack, u tron and burn were suggested in the first place. I know this contradicts the "one goyf deck" idea but there could be an exception.
Pod should be showcased. It's a dominant deck in the format and its Toolbox style is something that comes back in EDH. The deck has combos but doesn't depend on them and while it's hard to pod without knowing your deck list, it's not hard to understand value. It's not a cheap deck, but not the most expensive either Pod itself and many creatures are affordable. Noble and the fetches are driving its price.
Mono U Tron. The cheap option for someone interested in control.
Zoo. The goyf deck that can be built in several ways.
UR Delver and Twin might be a bit redundant but are an important part of Modern. They should pick 1 or 2 spots in the list.
I don't think Burn is interesting because I assume you can be familiar with it without even knowing the format. Burn is a multi format archetype. However I think it should be in if anyone wants to try it against other decks to see how it plays out.
Amulet of Vigor. I know this is fringe but this deck plays cards that aren't played in any other decks. It's great to show diversity. It's also a budget deck. Scapeshift could pick that spot on the list too I guess.
Finally I guess Soul Sisters/Hatebeats/D&T could be interesting to have. It's budget and it's not redundant with other decks I mentioned. Merfolk could also take that spot as the Aether Vial tribe deck.
Well OP, I think you got a nice project and I hope you can make a nice pool of decks for people to try, you can always add more in the future.