Anyway, I have thought of Axis of Mortality in the sideboard as an alternate for grindy matchups.
A different two card combo (Axis + Unlife) wherein both cards are permanents and present the possibility for the opponent to play around them seems too fragile. I'd be considering Hive Mind first if we're talking 6 mana enchantments to win the game with (Pacts).
Do you really want the 4th Spoils? I have been rather unimpressed with Spoils (exiling way too many cards - I suck at Karma, I guess) and would just love to play anything else over it.
In terms of Wincons, most lists seem to just use Storm and Maniac. I have been playing Grave Titan in my SB for a while (it won 2 of 3 games where I cast it, the loss being a Lantern player who kept in two bridges...) and was thinking about alternative stuff like Gifts Ungiven, Madcap Experiment (yeah, boarding out 8 mana artifacts sucks) and Thing in the Ice
The math on Spoils is pretty solid, not set on the 4th being correct but I think it's an interesting consideration.
Alternative stuff usually doesn't help enough in the poor matchups even if it improves some others. None of them are really efficient on slots either, and in the case of Thing in the Ice it's just too slow a lot of the time.
I think it's decent, though if you're going to pay 4 mana for a boardwipe you generally want more upside (Not that the ramping is that huge). Supreme Verdict being uncounterable is gaining relevance with Spirits coming up and has always been notable against Spell pierce from Affinity. I think Bontu's is really the best we can do on account of the speed of most aggressive decks, but a 1-of 4 mana sweeper to hedge against Meddling Mage is marginally valuable.
Does anyone have experience with the whole "fifth simian spirit guide" in desperate ritual? I say on stream a player said there was math out there that showed the percentage increase of not spoiling away win cons.
I've played it before to relatively no change in how the deck felt, the math on Spoils (linked above) is pretty solid as-is so I'm unsure how much benefit there would be. Seeing the math could be interesting though.
Echoing Truth is good but I think I like the Scry on Perilous Voyage better. How often are we going to need to remove multiple permanents with the same name?
Double Leyline decks are relatively low but it's not impossible for multiple copies of Meddling Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, Mausoleum Wanderer, Damping Sphere, etc. to be in play. Additionally, the scry helps you dig but you usually don't want the effect until the end step before you win, when the scry has pretty minimal value.
Very strongly suggest you play the deck in its stock configuration first. Arguel's has little to no place in the deck, and if it did Phyrexian Arena or Search for Azcanta would likely be better
"It's the optimal combination when put into the hand of a skilled Ad Nauseam player."
"The manabase has been crafted for a long period of time."
"Jarred Boettcher" "Pro Tour in 2014"
"The 8 fastlands version of the deck and 3 Spoils is just the ''easy'' version of it : doesn't need as much decisions in regards of lands and doesn't leave space for flexibility."
"Something not being played doesn't make it unplayable."
"I don't dismiss the quality of the lists we see right now."
If by any chance you would be kind enough to share your knowledge about how to bring the deck to the next level, please enlighten us with your wisdom because our community needs a meaningful contribution to compensate for years of wasted discussion
Opinions are fine. Stating your opinion as true without strong supporting data (and even worse, in opposition to the overwhelming majority of the data) is what I think is garbage here. Fetches are playable, sure, but they are not the best way to build the deck and any suggestion that they are is unsupported by recent/large-scale data.
Anywho, here's the list of what I'm upset with you over. Sorry for calling you ignorant.
Citing random people that topped with a deck doesn't make the data better just because they have names.
Citing a known cheater and a Pro Tour from 4 years ago as though it's meaningful.
Demeaning the best build of a deck to try and hype up your unsupported build.
Baseless claims that it's the best version when all recent data says otherwise.
"Don't dismiss" Except for the fact that you just did.
I never said the entire time has been wasted, nor that I was the only one who had answers. Putting words into peoples mouths is poor form. You can also cut the "I've been here for 3 years", so have I, doesn't mean anything.
Contributed intensively: Credit for bringing up Timely, Dromoka, and Tarpit a while ago (even if they aren't good enough to make the cut), but a lot of your posts are just "Here's my deck, you should all play it" without much in the way of in-depth analysis or supporting data. By all means play what you like, but don't lie and say that it's the best.
I've already mentioned that I think 18/19 land considerations are a potential area of improvement (I'm leaning towards shaving two Temples for additional cantrips or the 4th Spoils), Gift SB seems weak but could be worth looking into (Someone mentioned it last page-ish), an aggregated SB guide from Wohlmacher's Primer and DaSneakyPete's list could be very useful.
There's no need to be rude about being ''ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck''. It's comment like these that don't encourage people to just share ideas, even if you would disagree.
There is likewise no need to demean the better build by calling it "easy", yet here we are. Sharing ideas is excellent but it should be in a manner that aims to actively improve the deck, not just making irrelevant points about outdated information. This is not a disagreement about anything subjective, this is - as I said - you being ignorant to the state of the deck. This likewise is a huge part of why I take breaks from this forum: There is a huge amount of wasted discussion on ideas that have minimal potential to improve the deck (e.g. Fetches, that Shared Fate thing, Leyline-less). I would much prefer we had some degree of direction as a community such that we might be able to continue to advance the deck (the shared direction being a necessity to compensate for the lack of players if we're to keep up with the rapid deck development of Tron/Humans/Jeskai).
Fetchless is provably the better manabase for the current meta. I'm being honest, not rude, you should try catching up on the years of data you're ignoring if you want to meaningfully contribute to the development of the deck.
Jarred Boettcher and Bryan Gottlieb being the only ones making it to the Pro Tour in 2014 were on the exact same list with fetches and shocks. That the most high-end finish the deck ever had with 7-2 and 8-1-1 records. The only SCG ever won by the deck was last year, still on no fastland by Nicholas Byrd. However, Andreas Ganz won the only GP with a very streamlined list with fastlands and temples. To me, the 8 fastlands version of the deck and 3 Spoils is just the ''easy'' version of it : doesn't need as much decisions in regards of lands and doesn't leave space for flexibility. My taste is with fetches and I just wouldn't ever go back to anything else.
The fact is that at the moment and since 2 years, the deck as been pushed back into tier 2-3 territory. Out of the 8 most played decks in Modern, we have :
- Tron, which should be a piece of cake.
- Humans, which is impossible.
- Jeskai Control should be easy.
- Pyromancer decks seem grindy and maybe 40/60 for them.
- Hollow One decks are rough for us.
- Burn should be easy.
- KCI is faster than us.
- Affinity should be 50/50 pre-board and 60/40 post-board with Stony Silence and Recall.
And we don't perform well. Storm was the combo deck for 2017, KCI is the combo deck for 2018 and Titanshift is the most consistent combo deck all around for a couple of years. We still are doing okay, but maybe thinking about some sideboarding options for those poor matchups should be our priority over anything else at the moment (even thinking about having more maindeck cards to ease up the though matchups).
Oh and I'm running Dispel because of control decks (Boseiju is always dead with FoR).
Ah yes, Boettcher.... But of course! We should just play based on lists from 4 years ago, not like you'd get laughed at for playing Ajani in Jeskai or MD Ascension in Storm, maybe I'll just play Twin or Pod! Oh wait... (While we're talking about PT, guess what land build the last reported PT deck was running)
Those results make no sense to reference, they're absurdly far out of date for the current meta. Sure Byrd may have been the only win, but if we just check the five open and classic results from this year they're all fetchless. It's also ridiculous to only look at wins: The difference between a top result and a win is usually tiny compared to the relative size of the event. You should likely be looking at "Tops". Further, the fact that Storm lists (Driven by the Scherer/Muller thinktank) have shifted to fetchless should be telling.
It's not the "easy" version, it's not inflexible, you're just ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck.
The relative position in the meta hasn't really changed. It's not like we were ever "Tier 1" when those PT results were up, Boettcher's literally doesn't count and it's not unheard of for players to spike events with T2/3 decks (See GP Barcelona 2018 and Hardened Scales Affinity). We've always been a Tier 2 deck at best.
We're relatively easier to disrupt compared to Storm and KCI since these critical mass combo decks get to be better against discard. They've also been running about half a turn faster than us it seems, and with better resilience to hate (See Explosives in KCI and Gifts for Bounce in Storm). We've got a definite edge against control and Burn relative to those two at the cost of being slower. We also have a relatively lower play rate and no popular pro's playing the deck. The other bit of us not preforming well is Humans such a garbage matchup.
Further, saying that we should prioritize SBing continues to emphasize your lack of attention to how the deck is currently built. There's a reason most SB's are on 2 removal and 3 boardwipe (Humans), there's a reason we run 4 Leyline (Mardu), the Hurkyl's and Thoughtseizes too (KCI). The SB for the deck makes sense in it's stock form, you're just out of date (like I said earlier Haze really isn't great anymore). We have seen some MD adjustment in response to the meta already in the form of Echoing Truth coming into the main (and to a lesser extent, Slaughter Pact) and the 4th Unlife becoming standard MD. The MD has gotten very tight and streamlined lately and I feel as though the next adjustment possible in terms of increasing speed/efficiency is moving to 19/18 lands.
Fair enough on the Dispel, I prefer 2 Boseiju since the first usually is dead due to FoR but the second is very likely to stick; i.e. the first gains considerable value from the second. (That and them tapping mana for FoR is good for us anyway) Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
About the manabase, I'm on the deck since 2015 and I'm running fetches and shocks. It's the optimal combination when put into the hand of a skilled Ad Nauseam player.
In all, the manabase which is streamlined everywhere is designed around fastlands and painland, but it's very weak to Blood Moon and any sort of land destruction. Also, life is a resource that must be used correctly in this game, so having the fetches provides a great equilibrium with the temples.
I'd love to see you pull up some actual data to back that claim up. The best manabase for the deck has been quite cemented in the current meta. Benson hasn't topped anything with the deck since 2016 as far as I can tell, Chad only topped once in 2015 (And with a fetchless list no less), Byrd hasn't topped in a year but I'll give him credit for trying Whir of Invention at least.
Our deck isn't really weak to moon anyway, we run 8 artifacts that can help fix it and the MD Echoing Truth that's becoming standard helps as well. Life is a scarce resource in a Humans/Hollow One meta and the Fetch-Shock manabase doesn't seem to be correct by the results we've seen.
Tolaria still feels too slow right now to MD it. I agree with you on Teachings/Peer/Slaughter Pact though, and the benefits of Teachings when building a SB is pretty sweet. That being said, Haze hasn't been great since Infect died and Bontu's got printed and I don't know why you're running the Dispel (Run the 4th Pact, or if it's specifically for Control run a second Boseiju).
Interesting to see what removal does or doesn't go in vs certain matchups.
Copying it here for ease of reading:
Humans (Worst MU)
In - 3 Bontu’s Last Reckoning, 2 fatal push, slaughter pact
Out - 3 pact of Negation, 3 pentad prism Jeskai control variant (very good MU)
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Echoing Truth
Out - 1 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Pentad Prism, 1 Sleight of hands Affinity (60/40)
In - Hurkyl’s Recall, 2 Fatal Push, Slaughter Pact
Out - 3 Pact of Negation, Spoils of the Vault Jund (fine MU)
In- 4 Leyline of Sanctity
Out-3 Pact of Negation, 1 Pentad Prism Black-Red hollow one (45/55)
In - 2 Thoughseize ( Leyline if they have discard other than the 2 brutalities)
Out - 2 Pact of Negation Burn (very good MU)
In - 4 Leyline of Sanctity
Out -2 Pact of Negation, 1 sleight of hand, 1 spoils of the vault Tron (Good MU)
In - 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 2 Phyrexian Unlife Mardu Pyromancer
In - 4 Leyline of Sanctity,
Out - 2 Pact of Negations, 2 sleight of hand Grixis Death’s Shadow
In - 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 1 Pact of Negation
Out - 3 pentad prism, 2 sleight of hand TitanShift/Scapeshift
In - 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 1 Spoils of the Vault, 1 Phyrexian Unlife G/W Hexproof
In - 1 Echoing Truth, 2 Fatal Push
Out - 2 Pentad Prism, 1 Pact of Negation U/R Gifts Storm
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Fatal Push, 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 3 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Sleight of Hand Counters Company
In - 2 Fatal Push, 1 Slaughter Pact, 3 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
Out - 2 Pact of Negation, 2 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Sleight of Hand Ironworks Combo
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hurkyl’s Recall
Out - 3 Phyrexian Unlife, 1 Sleight of Hand Elves
In - 3 Bontu’s Last Reckoning, 1 Slaughter Pact, (2 Fatal Push if they have gaddock teeg)
Out - 3 Pact of Negation, 1 Sleight of Hand U/W Control
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Echoing Truth
Out - 1 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Pentad Prism, 1 Echoing Truth G/R Land Destruction
In - 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Echoing Truth
Out - 2 Sleight of Hand, 1 Pact of Negation Ad Nauseum
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 1 Lightning Storm, 2 Phyrexian Unlife Dredge
In - 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 2 Pact of Negation
What are people doing against these moronic 8-rack/pox-style decks? Leylines are pretty useless vs Liliana and The Rack (namely, they don't work). Bring in Thoughtseize and strategically counter their discard spells?
Leylines, Thoughtseize, I'd probably bring Clique. Celestial Purge is great but not in my board right now since Lili decks are at an all time low.
On the topic of land bases, my meta is heavy on blood moon and land destruction at the moment, what do you guys think would be the best middle ground on basics to run in this environment?
That seems fine, so be honest I don't think the 3rd Island is needed even in a heavy Moon situation (Since you have cantrips/pentads to help fix mana as well). We're pretty resilient against Blood Moon on account of the artifact mana.
Utility is Dreadship Reef atm. I'm pretty happy with this list and the additional Scrylands didn't really hurt my turn 4 kill percentage ...
I'm sure it wouldn't, as long as you're staying around 40% untapped 4th lands you're going to hit the same kill percentages. I really don't like Reef right now because it just does nothing useful against any top deck that isn't Jeskai (Which we're already good against), not making colored mana the turn it comes down sucks. Urborg even is kinda meh and I'm thinking the 3rd basic might just be better (or maybe I'll try Tolaria MD).
The clunkiest thing about the deck that I remember was the land configuration. Iirc, there was never really any consensus on what combination of lands to play. Has there been any culmination in a stock landbase?
Those are the most common land setups I've seen. I personally am on the first one (4:1 Split of Gemstone/City of Brass, Urborg as the Utility). The exact balance of U/w vs U/b's is flexible depending on how white/black heavy your SB is but usually want to be slightly black-leaning on account of Ad Naus and Spoils. There isn't a ton of discussion and it's not exactly solved because there aren't enough people playing Ad Naus for the deck to converge. Look around on MTGGoldfish and you'll find plenty of variation in Land and SB's.
So I am fairly new to Ad Nauseam. I come from a long Storm background and have been taken off because of Humans. I am just not creative enough to work out past a Meddler and Free Booter. But I enjoy Ad Nauseam for it's ability to cast sweepers. So how does you all feel about the deck in a Humans world?
Humans is hard, hence the mandatory sweepers. I actually think that storm has a better game 1 on account of Repeal+Unsubstantiate MD whereas Ad Naus only has Echoing Truth at best. Post board they both suck, Humans is just a hard matchup for combo generally.
I came here to talk about the absolut need (or not) in having the leylines on the sideboard.
You're nuts..... Except I think you might have a point so maybe we're both nuts? I haven't seen any idea's really worth testing lately (I've just been playing Tron/Storm instead) so I think I'll give this a shot, going to run this SB:
Anyone else who has extensively tested the Humans Matchup with [my list]? I think 1-2 Engineered Explosives on the sideboard is also great with the Tolaria West in the main and can also destroy a Chalice or Meddling Mage aside from the Slaughter Pact / push.
1 Nephalia Academy - Seems like a must if you're not playing Leyline mainboard and is nuts on T1 against a T1 discard on the play
Wanted to put Boseiju but everyone else is playing Field of Ruin which sucks because of the forced shuffle effect so might reconsider Gigadrowse instead if I can find space and Sudden Spoiling which is also good for creature decks with no +1/+1 counters and especially (Meddling Mage)
I don't think EE will be strong in the matchup for two reasons: It has collateral damage against the artifact mana, and it is slow. Best case you're blowing up 3 two drops on turn three (Their T2/3 plays plus Vial), maybe stalling a bit to make them play cards postcombat on T3/4? But at that point you aren't hitting their Parish/Noble and the play gets worse if they don't play a two drop on T3. It also gives them a chance to alter their gameplan in response to the EE being played (play Selfless Spirit on T2 instead of opening themselves to it). It also opens your board clear up to being hit by artifact hate (Kataki might not matter but Rec Sage/Hostage Taker would). With the overall minor upside of being able to hit the occasional SB Damping Sphere? I really don't think it's anywhere close to as good in the matchup as additional board clear or spot removal. Go up to a 3rd Bontu's and a 2nd Hurkyl's/Thoughtseize I think.
Nephalia Academy is by no means a must-play, it's not straight benefit, it's bad on the draw, and it doesn't make coloured mana. I don't think the mediocre upside is worth playing a colourless land.
Forced shuffle doesn't invalidate Boseiju, it's not like 100% of the cards you put on the bottom will be bad (ex. Sleight into AN+Grace). The card is an absolute house against control and Jeskai doesn't even run Field of Ruin all the time (most recent 5 lists on MTGGoldfish run 1/1/1/0/1). That being said, Gigadrowse is still a good card.
Sudden Spoiling on the other hand.... Is cute but very corner-case (When would you want it vs. Bontu's/Spot Removal for example).
Okay here we go....
Basic Swamp is bad, doesn't actually cast anything, either other basic is better or you could just run Urborg.
Given the meta I don't know why you'd run City of Brass instead of Gemstone Mine, the damage is consequential in the aggressive matchups.
Also not sure why you're MD'ing Boseiju in this supposed meta either. Cut to 20 lands and MD the 4th Unlife I think.
Again on the Meta, not sure I'd be running Teachings over the 3rd Spoils if you're under pressure from Humans/Hollow (See my above post 5742 on the meta)
Your Sideboard 2 Truths and a Wear // Tear is overkill, cut a Truth +1 Slot
You could cut one of the SB pacts for the Bosei from the MD
4th Unlife should really be main as far as I'm concerned +1 Slot
Haze when you're already on 3 sweepers seems meh, Infect isn't that big right now. I'd cut them +2 Slots
So we "save" 4 slots this way and can address a few other MU's. Affinity - Hurkyl's Recall is a good card, and I think as a one-of has better overall utility than a 4th sweeper or the Haze's Aggro - Path to Exile (Fatal Push), basically the same card (Though I like Path more). Most decks are running two spot removal spells and I think that's correct in this meta. Control - MD'ing Leylines is totally fair, but you could probably be solid with a 2nd Boseiju or a Tolaria West. GDS - Hey we have room for that Godhead you wanted!
Realistically your SB is okay as is, only thing I hate is not MD'ing the 4th Unlife. I think the points on your MD are going to be more important in terms of being prepared for the meta (assessing SCG as ~= MTGO meta).
Glad to see you around again buddy! Looking forward for some news about the meta in the west!
Yeah cheers! It's been lots of the same, people are still reluctant to pick up FotM decks and so right now it's heavy on Jund, Jace decks, Affinity, and Tron.
My outs are usually the Pacts (Against decks with no counters), the Pentads (When you expect artifact hate/can afford to slow down), and Spoils (In slower matchups where you can take time to find combo pieces). In corner cases I'll board out an Unlife against Infect or Jund, or I'll board out Blooms against Remand heavy decks. In my list I'll usually cut a Peer Through Depths when I board in Leylines but that's a bit more specific.
Been tracking a really spectacular Ad Nauseam streak and player on MTGO: DaSneakyPete
Alright it's summer now and I'm getting back into it so this seems like an excellent place to start analyzing. Thanks for the list! Upon a bit of investigation they've played two different sideboard variations this year. The earlier being as follows with some switches between the Bontu's and the Verdict:
So, shifting a Hurkyl's and the Godhead into more Bontu's. I'm a big fan of the newer board against the meta as represented online (Less Grixis Death's Shadow, and the Hurkyl's not being live against Humans or Hollow One validates the switch).
There are a few interesting choices in their deckbuilding that I think are also worth looking at in the context of other current lists. They don't cut a Pact for Echoing Truth, nor do they cut a Spoils for a Mystical Teachings. I think that it's currently correct to be all-Spoils given the pace of the meta right now, the more consistent speed is very valuable. However it's interesting that they then make the choice to keep 3 Pacts in a very counter-light meta where I think Truth is an excellent card to have MD now against Thalia/Meddling Mage, and Angler/Hollow One, while also being live against Affinity and Young Pyromancer decks.
The choice to be heavy on City of Brass instead of Gemstone is also interesting in such an aggressive meta. I feel as though the life saved is very important, games are running short enough that the impermanence of Gemstone is acceptable. They're also a bit heavier on white mana than I'm used to which I suppose isn't overly consequential given their consistent success.
On my end of things I'm running a similar MD (Pact --> Truth and some land differences, along with Peer over some Sleight). My SB is quite up in the air but since my meta has a heavier control skew I'm still on 2 Boseiju.
Interesting to take a look at the consistent success this list has been showing, definitely seems like a good model. It could be useful to look at some of the recent paper tournament lists: The last three results are a DaSneakyPete-esque list, one with both Truth and Teachings MD with a heavy one-of SB, and one cutting a Pentad for Pyretic Ritual with a Gifts Ungiven SB.
The math on Spoils is pretty solid, not set on the 4th being correct but I think it's an interesting consideration.
Alternative stuff usually doesn't help enough in the poor matchups even if it improves some others. None of them are really efficient on slots either, and in the case of Thing in the Ice it's just too slow a lot of the time.
I think it's decent, though if you're going to pay 4 mana for a boardwipe you generally want more upside (Not that the ramping is that huge). Supreme Verdict being uncounterable is gaining relevance with Spirits coming up and has always been notable against Spell pierce from Affinity. I think Bontu's is really the best we can do on account of the speed of most aggressive decks, but a 1-of 4 mana sweeper to hedge against Meddling Mage is marginally valuable.
I've played it before to relatively no change in how the deck felt, the math on Spoils (linked above) is pretty solid as-is so I'm unsure how much benefit there would be. Seeing the math could be interesting though.
Double Leyline decks are relatively low but it's not impossible for multiple copies of Meddling Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, Mausoleum Wanderer, Damping Sphere, etc. to be in play. Additionally, the scry helps you dig but you usually don't want the effect until the end step before you win, when the scry has pretty minimal value.
Very strongly suggest you play the deck in its stock configuration first. Arguel's has little to no place in the deck, and if it did Phyrexian Arena or Search for Azcanta would likely be better
Anywho, here's the list of what I'm upset with you over. Sorry for calling you ignorant.
Contributed intensively: Credit for bringing up Timely, Dromoka, and Tarpit a while ago (even if they aren't good enough to make the cut), but a lot of your posts are just "Here's my deck, you should all play it" without much in the way of in-depth analysis or supporting data. By all means play what you like, but don't lie and say that it's the best.
I've already mentioned that I think 18/19 land considerations are a potential area of improvement (I'm leaning towards shaving two Temples for additional cantrips or the 4th Spoils), Gift SB seems weak but could be worth looking into (Someone mentioned it last page-ish), an aggregated SB guide from Wohlmacher's Primer and DaSneakyPete's list could be very useful.
Fetchless is provably the better manabase for the current meta. I'm being honest, not rude, you should try catching up on the years of data you're ignoring if you want to meaningfully contribute to the development of the deck.
Those results make no sense to reference, they're absurdly far out of date for the current meta. Sure Byrd may have been the only win, but if we just check the five open and classic results from this year they're all fetchless. It's also ridiculous to only look at wins: The difference between a top result and a win is usually tiny compared to the relative size of the event. You should likely be looking at "Tops". Further, the fact that Storm lists (Driven by the Scherer/Muller thinktank) have shifted to fetchless should be telling.
It's not the "easy" version, it's not inflexible, you're just ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck.
The relative position in the meta hasn't really changed. It's not like we were ever "Tier 1" when those PT results were up, Boettcher's literally doesn't count and it's not unheard of for players to spike events with T2/3 decks (See GP Barcelona 2018 and Hardened Scales Affinity). We've always been a Tier 2 deck at best.
We're relatively easier to disrupt compared to Storm and KCI since these critical mass combo decks get to be better against discard. They've also been running about half a turn faster than us it seems, and with better resilience to hate (See Explosives in KCI and Gifts for Bounce in Storm). We've got a definite edge against control and Burn relative to those two at the cost of being slower. We also have a relatively lower play rate and no popular pro's playing the deck. The other bit of us not preforming well is Humans such a garbage matchup.
Further, saying that we should prioritize SBing continues to emphasize your lack of attention to how the deck is currently built. There's a reason most SB's are on 2 removal and 3 boardwipe (Humans), there's a reason we run 4 Leyline (Mardu), the Hurkyl's and Thoughtseizes too (KCI). The SB for the deck makes sense in it's stock form, you're just out of date (like I said earlier Haze really isn't great anymore). We have seen some MD adjustment in response to the meta already in the form of Echoing Truth coming into the main (and to a lesser extent, Slaughter Pact) and the 4th Unlife becoming standard MD. The MD has gotten very tight and streamlined lately and I feel as though the next adjustment possible in terms of increasing speed/efficiency is moving to 19/18 lands.
Fair enough on the Dispel, I prefer 2 Boseiju since the first usually is dead due to FoR but the second is very likely to stick; i.e. the first gains considerable value from the second. (That and them tapping mana for FoR is good for us anyway)
Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Our deck isn't really weak to moon anyway, we run 8 artifacts that can help fix it and the MD Echoing Truth that's becoming standard helps as well. Life is a scarce resource in a Humans/Hollow One meta and the Fetch-Shock manabase doesn't seem to be correct by the results we've seen.
Tolaria still feels too slow right now to MD it. I agree with you on Teachings/Peer/Slaughter Pact though, and the benefits of Teachings when building a SB is pretty sweet. That being said, Haze hasn't been great since Infect died and Bontu's got printed and I don't know why you're running the Dispel (Run the 4th Pact, or if it's specifically for Control run a second Boseiju).
6 Scrylands
5 Rainbow
2 Basics
1 Utility
5 Scrylands
4 Rainbows
2 Basics
1 Utility
Not gonna lie, that seems pretty bad. Don't think there's much to be gained from that "Transformation".
Humans is hard, hence the mandatory sweepers. I actually think that storm has a better game 1 on account of Repeal+Unsubstantiate MD whereas Ad Naus only has Echoing Truth at best. Post board they both suck, Humans is just a hard matchup for combo generally.
You're nuts..... Except I think you might have a point so maybe we're both nuts? I haven't seen any idea's really worth testing lately (I've just been playing Tron/Storm instead) so I think I'll give this a shot, going to run this SB:
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Nephalia Academy
1 Pact of Negation
1 Thoughtseize
2 Path to Exile
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Supreme Verdict
No problem! Though I don't think I've ever lost a control matchup because of Gemstone, you usually just draw more lands.
I don't think EE will be strong in the matchup for two reasons: It has collateral damage against the artifact mana, and it is slow. Best case you're blowing up 3 two drops on turn three (Their T2/3 plays plus Vial), maybe stalling a bit to make them play cards postcombat on T3/4? But at that point you aren't hitting their Parish/Noble and the play gets worse if they don't play a two drop on T3. It also gives them a chance to alter their gameplan in response to the EE being played (play Selfless Spirit on T2 instead of opening themselves to it). It also opens your board clear up to being hit by artifact hate (Kataki might not matter but Rec Sage/Hostage Taker would). With the overall minor upside of being able to hit the occasional SB Damping Sphere? I really don't think it's anywhere close to as good in the matchup as additional board clear or spot removal. Go up to a 3rd Bontu's and a 2nd Hurkyl's/Thoughtseize I think.
Nephalia Academy is by no means a must-play, it's not straight benefit, it's bad on the draw, and it doesn't make coloured mana. I don't think the mediocre upside is worth playing a colourless land.
Forced shuffle doesn't invalidate Boseiju, it's not like 100% of the cards you put on the bottom will be bad (ex. Sleight into AN+Grace). The card is an absolute house against control and Jeskai doesn't even run Field of Ruin all the time (most recent 5 lists on MTGGoldfish run 1/1/1/0/1). That being said, Gigadrowse is still a good card.
Sudden Spoiling on the other hand.... Is cute but very corner-case (When would you want it vs. Bontu's/Spot Removal for example).
Basic Swamp is bad, doesn't actually cast anything, either other basic is better or you could just run Urborg.
Given the meta I don't know why you'd run City of Brass instead of Gemstone Mine, the damage is consequential in the aggressive matchups.
Also not sure why you're MD'ing Boseiju in this supposed meta either. Cut to 20 lands and MD the 4th Unlife I think.
Again on the Meta, not sure I'd be running Teachings over the 3rd Spoils if you're under pressure from Humans/Hollow (See my above post 5742 on the meta)
Your Sideboard
2 Truths and a Wear // Tear is overkill, cut a Truth +1 Slot
You could cut one of the SB pacts for the Bosei from the MD
4th Unlife should really be main as far as I'm concerned +1 Slot
Haze when you're already on 3 sweepers seems meh, Infect isn't that big right now. I'd cut them +2 Slots
So we "save" 4 slots this way and can address a few other MU's.
Affinity - Hurkyl's Recall is a good card, and I think as a one-of has better overall utility than a 4th sweeper or the Haze's
Aggro - Path to Exile (Fatal Push), basically the same card (Though I like Path more). Most decks are running two spot removal spells and I think that's correct in this meta.
Control - MD'ing Leylines is totally fair, but you could probably be solid with a 2nd Boseiju or a Tolaria West.
GDS - Hey we have room for that Godhead you wanted!
Realistically your SB is okay as is, only thing I hate is not MD'ing the 4th Unlife. I think the points on your MD are going to be more important in terms of being prepared for the meta (assessing SCG as ~= MTGO meta).
Love the deck name
Yeah cheers! It's been lots of the same, people are still reluctant to pick up FotM decks and so right now it's heavy on Jund, Jace decks, Affinity, and Tron.
- 1 Pact of Negation
- 1 Slaughter Pact
- 2 Fatal Push
- 2 Thoughtseize
- 1 Echoing Truth
- 2 Hurkyl's Recall
- 1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
- 4 Leyline of Sanctity
- 1 Godhead of Awe
So, shifting a Hurkyl's and the Godhead into more Bontu's. I'm a big fan of the newer board against the meta as represented online (Less Grixis Death's Shadow, and the Hurkyl's not being live against Humans or Hollow One validates the switch).There are a few interesting choices in their deckbuilding that I think are also worth looking at in the context of other current lists. They don't cut a Pact for Echoing Truth, nor do they cut a Spoils for a Mystical Teachings. I think that it's currently correct to be all-Spoils given the pace of the meta right now, the more consistent speed is very valuable. However it's interesting that they then make the choice to keep 3 Pacts in a very counter-light meta where I think Truth is an excellent card to have MD now against Thalia/Meddling Mage, and Angler/Hollow One, while also being live against Affinity and Young Pyromancer decks.
The choice to be heavy on City of Brass instead of Gemstone is also interesting in such an aggressive meta. I feel as though the life saved is very important, games are running short enough that the impermanence of Gemstone is acceptable. They're also a bit heavier on white mana than I'm used to which I suppose isn't overly consequential given their consistent success.
On my end of things I'm running a similar MD (Pact --> Truth and some land differences, along with Peer over some Sleight). My SB is quite up in the air but since my meta has a heavier control skew I'm still on 2 Boseiju.
Interesting to take a look at the consistent success this list has been showing, definitely seems like a good model. It could be useful to look at some of the recent paper tournament lists: The last three results are a DaSneakyPete-esque list, one with both Truth and Teachings MD with a heavy one-of SB, and one cutting a Pentad for Pyretic Ritual with a Gifts Ungiven SB.