@blinking spirit: I came in today to think I'd been double-crossed by your inconsistency. I left here last time to think I'd leave a message of God in the hearts of others and instead I find I'd been ignored by you; I also find that you'd been fighting ever so rudely to these Christians; I find the words that you speak make a sense only to yourself and not to people Christian, I also think you're being obtuse in these makings of an argument; it seems this is from being in this website solong. I ask for forgiveness in restitution, I also pray I obtain it, I pray I get answered. Amen.
Oookay.
Firstly, restitution is material compensation for wrongdoing. Asking for "forgiveness in restitution" means you're offering me money.
@blinking spirit: I came in today to think I'd been double-crossed by your inconsistency. I left here last time to think I'd leave a message of God in the hearts of others and instead I find I'd been ignored by you; I also find that you'd been fighting ever so rudely to these Christians; I find the words that you speak make a sense only to yourself and not to people Christian, I also think you're being obtuse in these makings of an argument; it seems this is from being in this website solong. I ask for forgiveness in restitution, I also pray I obtain it, I pray I get answered. Amen.
Well I didn't say that Jesus didn't care about the non-believer at all. Jesus says in Matthew 5 that the sun rises for both the good and the evil, and that this is evidence that there is a common grace that God shows towards all people. I accept that, but it is clearly not Biblical to say this common grace towards all people involves the salvation of all people. If that were true, then the consequence would be universalism, which clearly is not Biblical.
Feel free to source this if you have one. I do.
1 John 2:1-2:
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
So no. The Codex Astartes does not support this action. And nor does the Bible, for that matter.
does the bible have more than one meaning in its bible? the entire book has message in it. "God is the universal foundation of all things and then some that I cannot state in one sentence." That's my quote.
Purposefully preaching schizo-inconsistencies is so baffling to me that I don't know the meaning of it, I think also you.
[quote from="cloudman »" Well I didn't say that Jesus didn't care about the non-believer at all. Jesus says in Matthew 5 that the sun rises for both the good and the evil, and that this is evidence that there is a common grace that God shows towards all people. I accept that, but it is clearly not Biblical to say this common grace towards all people involves the salvation of all people. If that were true, then the consequence would be universalism, which clearly is not Biblical. [/quote]
The sun rises for both the good and the evil and that is a universal thing that happens. Consequences both happen to the good and the bad, also universal. Bible says Jesus "show's no personal favoritism..." to his followers. God shows that these things naturally are universal. God shows universal tings such as these and also the consequences and natural affects by "these things". All things are universal consistency.
I'm an agnostic, and I want to debate with Christians about the figure of God. I'm not really interested in what atheists have to say if they come here to insult the beliefs of others, and really, I want to know the christian point of view on this because well... I belive there's a God, I just don't think he's good.
First of all, I've already made my experience as a confirmed catholic. I used to be an atheist but I started doubting we're really here out of the blue, in my opinion, it's impossible to explain the universe based on cience alone, I'm sure there must be an entity greater than us. After years of defending my religion tho, I noticed how God seems not to care about what you want, as an individual, as a person, but what he BELIVES is better. Christians call this "freedom", I call it a disguised Tyrany.
God IS Good you would say that too when it happens to you, consider you want crack in hell and then God will ask to you why do you take the rock? I believe that He is all so high that all the things we do is petty, yet significant out of love.
Ok, so if God is our father, isn't he supposed to listen to us once in a while? People say God follows this logic: Don't ask God for a bike because he doesn't works that way, steal the bike, and ask for forgiveness.
People say God gives, on his time, and only what he thinks is good for you, so in a way or another we're limited to what God thinks s best for an individual instead of him trying to listen to what we expect and want from life. Other religions seem to have gods who actually care, but I am more inclined to belive the cosmos is the creation of an individual entity.
people NEED to care, and they need someone to care for them and He DOES and that is selfish? He does give what we want on another level. Consider what the things we want in the next 10-20 decades and are they the TRUE THINGS we would want? are you unhappy with he way things are at the moment that you would want all that you would ask for
[/quote]
Then there's the issue on Heaven, eternity. If you follow God, act like a good human being and help others out, you go to heaven. But what is Heaven? A place where pretty much you'll lose your identity and individuality in order to be one with God, the cosmos, whatever. As I've seen many Christians and people who's had NDE describe Heaven that way. You won't feel the air never again, not taste the food. Your family won't br your family. You won't be able to kiss your wife any more, hug your kid... That's pretty much hell without the physicall tortures. And that reafirms God only cares about what he thinks is right for the soul instead of trying to listen.
heaven is GOOD things waiting to happen? that is my idea
Also if he's our father, he needs like, to do something other than showing nothing but indiference once in a while. If he's a fatherly figure he's doing it wrong. We live in the *****tiest world possible and he really, doesn't seems to care, he just makes a miracle once in a while to some random person to say "Hey, I enjoy looking at all of you suffer, keep it up, maybe in 4 months or so I'll let Mary appear again somewhere so you all get paranoid and belive world's ending again!"
bull*****, you think he won't care about you because he is doing things different, and the life you have is different.
I mean, mother says "Thank God because you're fortunate to have a house, parents and a meal". Why should I? Father is the one who has tried to give us that. Indeed God is much like my father; he's only worried about giving the "basics" and the rest well... I've had to work for it.
And when I need divine intervention to get what I desire, even non material stuff, it just never comes. "Ask God and you'll get what you want" is to me the biggest lie after unicorns.
You have a brain with millions of things happening inside of it, yet you only want onething that's good for you?
[quote from="Aldath »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/debate/religion/565437-a-debate-with-christians-what-makes-you-think-god?comment=1"]So, I belive there's a God, but one that cares nothing about us, and really I have my doubts about Jesus being the son of God...
I truly say to you that I may, resourcing myself with God, I have seen more than you.
I've heard these pompous comments all my life and they always seem to come from those who have seen and experienced the least.
That is exactly what I think of you
It saddens me to think of those unfortunate souls who spend so much time staring at scripture, their objectivity has been surrendered to whatever religion they subscribe to, and their thoughts are paralyzed by the notion that if they believe in [insert whatever religious dogma their religion promotes here] that they will be punished for believing otherwise. Their souls are threatened by those holding the collection plate and so they will believe whatever they are told to.
I didn't experience life until I put the scripture away and started reading things that weren't written by people trying to control me.
Putting God at the end of the sentence or explanation is truly something to behold and think about.
The surest way to stop thinking altogether is to put God at the end of the sentence.
The moment you say goddidit you stop thinking, and worse, you lose all hope of understanding because it never explains why something is the way it is. God is not an explanation at all. People who use God as an explanation do so because they're lazy and unwilling to try to find the real answer. As we gain knowledge with each passing century we uncover more and more things that were once explained as goddidit and we find natural reasons for it instead.
you can still do that, except God is at that point in the chain that can't continue having an answer
"Wow, I got 5$ in the mail. Thanks God". Then, if you have curiosity, you think. "Why'd I get that 5$?". You'd think crazy without being crazy. if that's blindness, idk what isn't.
If you thought God sent you the $5 then that would be crazy.
If I got $5 in the mail I'd think hey cool, someone sent me five bucks.
the belief you had where you think religion is blind, old, senile and crippling is what's keeping you from seeing the light. the truth.
Indoctrination is what keeps people from seeing the truth. When someone has the courage and objectivity to truly question their beliefs and scrutinize them for error, that is when they begin to see the truth.
I suggest same, except not with God. I mean, He is same as singing in moonlight, or waterfalls in desert. He's #1, can't fault #1 despite our understanding. I don't think He scrutinizes thinking the way you mention either, that's the way He made us. If anything I think strengthening our bonds, through doubt, with faith, is salvation
btw, thinking Jesus as a wise old man merchant of souls is a pitiful way to think of him. that's like worshipping sun tzu.
Okay for one thing....Sun Tzu is awesome. I'm totally cool with anyone who worships that guy.
For another thing, I liked Jesus for his merits and, apparently, you like him for his super powers. A normal person who is smart, wise, and kind is worth looking up to. Being able to walk on water is just bells and whistles to impress the ones who can't appreciate him for the attributes that actually matter.
I do not appreciate, love, worship or anything, solely, that makes him look like The Man of Steel. I love things about him because they remind me about the power of God. He is the greatest man who ever lived, to me. Everything about him gives me joy, I love it.
btw, "Being able to walk on water is just bells and whistles to impress the ones who can't appreciate him for the attributes that actually matter. " This, 100%
you definitely had problems. you supposedly had problems with the people of that church or something because when I told someone my theories of the cells and how we (on a cellular level) are connected to everything including God, the source, she look at me humbled or something. not blasphemic. I didn't preach to her my biographic findings.
this "blindness" you talk of... it's disgusting, that someone could be possibly insane listening to the bible, believing it word for word and having no guts to "fight back" or think for themselves. I truly say to you that I may, resourcing myself with God, I have seen more than you. Putting God at the end of the sentence or explanation is truly something to behold and think about. "Wow, I got 5$ in the mail. Thanks God". Then, if you have curiosity, you think. "Why'd I get that 5$?". You'd think crazy without being crazy. if that's blindness, idk what isn't.
the belief you had where you think religion is blind, old, senile and crippling is what's keeping you from seeing the light. the truth.
btw, thinking Jesus as a wise old man merchant of souls is a pitiful way to think of him. that's like worshipping sun tzu.
Yes, I do believe that there is value to faith. Faith brings hope and a sense of community to people who need it.
A great example of this is in The Life of Pi.
SPOILER!
At the end of the movie Pi asks the atheist "Which do you prefer" to which the Atheist replies "The one with the tiger" Pi then replies "and so it is with God" What he is saying is that you have the reality of what happened, but the reality is terrible, and causes pain. Then you have the alternative which is bearable, and an overall triumphant experience.
I didn't see the movie but I read the book and I see your point. Faith can make life easier for people. Believing in some ridiculous story, an obvious lie that makes you feel better, and repeating this lie to yourself and others every day can certainly make some people's lives more bearable.
But me personally, I'd rather be true to myself than have faith in whatever story makes me feel better.
it's not "a lie", designed to make you feel better. there is truth. faith is not a suppliment for confidence or contentment.
What is the evidence for the "truth" though?
I can't believe you said that.
Why is that?
What is the evidence for the truth? as if it needed to be a broken down and biologically studied piece of matter? the truth is there is no truth such as this, it isn't something analyzed and fragmented. it's like loving your mother. no proof needed. it's just there.
Yes, I do believe that there is value to faith. Faith brings hope and a sense of community to people who need it.
A great example of this is in The Life of Pi.
SPOILER!
At the end of the movie Pi asks the atheist "Which do you prefer" to which the Atheist replies "The one with the tiger" Pi then replies "and so it is with God" What he is saying is that you have the reality of what happened, but the reality is terrible, and causes pain. Then you have the alternative which is bearable, and an overall triumphant experience.
I didn't see the movie but I read the book and I see your point. Faith can make life easier for people. Believing in some ridiculous story, an obvious lie that makes you feel better, and repeating this lie to yourself and others every day can certainly make some people's lives more bearable.
But me personally, I'd rather be true to myself than have faith in whatever story makes me feel better.
it's not "a lie", designed to make you feel better. there is truth. faith is not a suppliment for confidence or contentment.
Yes. A claim is an assertion of something to be true. In this case, "There is no God" is asserted by Encendi to be true, thus it is a claim, and Highroller is asking for proof of this claim.
Yes, it is. You are asserting that something is not true. That is making a claim.
No, you are not asserting something is true, you are denying something is true.
On a related note, true is not the same thing as false. As in, when you say something is false, it is not the same thing as saying something is true, because true isn't false.
No, the problem with theism is the mindset it conveys: that there's some sort of omnipotent being watching over you, granting wishes, protecting you from harm, and guaranteeing a special place in the afterlife. It makes people feel special. It makes them feel like they're part of something "greater than themselves."
But it's a lie.
He needs to demonstrate that it's a lie, because he is claiming that it is a lie. That's how burden of proof works.
I wish BS would jump back in here because I feel like he is better at explaining things than I am, but he did what I might have done in his stead.....
Anyway, what we have with Encendi is a simple cause of "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur." What is asserted without evidence/proof/reason, may/can be dismissed/denied without evidence/proof/reason.
In the case were no evidence/proof/reason is brought to bear, you can dismiss said case without evidence/proof/reason. Now, in most cases Christianity VERY MUCH has at leastreason backing up their claims. I've heard more of my fair share of reasonable arguments in favor of all manners of theism.
However, in the case were no evidence/proof/reason is brought to bear--IPU comes to mind--you are well within your philosophical rights to just wave your hand dismissively.
if i read this right , encendi wants good reason to support thiesm, specifically in this case christianity since evidence / proof (although in arcane? ways it does prove certain things in specific passages) is not the bible and is actually a strength of mans to go forward without knowing all the facts, or reasoning the logics. imagine how ugly uninspiring foolish dispicable and all these bad things the world would be if logic and rational were kings. if the rules of the world were based on our limited understanding(lol) instead the rule of God's, we would self-appoint, with arrogance and narcissism, superior to our fellow man who are just as equal as we, save certain strengths charachteristics and weaknesses, and everything else would be like the dark ages. compare that with the world you live in. that alone should glorify his work.
i am in crossroads of life after having breakdowns. either choose what i do be it as ****ty as it may which would make me feel ****ty about myself then patch it up after and make me feel good about myself. or, i can follow the bibles virtues or good ones in general and it would not feel good. this "feeling good about yourself because God" fantasy that YOU have isnt true. feeling good about yourself because of God is very true, i feel it all the time. it is the best feeling ive ever had, yours too. it IS special. that alone is worth it to me.
p.s. people would have attacked mammoths in groups of 4 or 5 with sticks and stones based on the evaluation given by these people with hard facts, trues, and blatant disregard of the impossible?
P.S.S. people who say thiests are the weak-minded and the athiests/agnostics have it backward, imo. which is easier, to say? "I believe in God", or, "i'm not made of flesh". is it stronger to believe in the inevitable? or the unlikely?
please do not think these as the basis for these proofs.
luke 5:22:25 "... why are you reasoning in your hearts"
Yes, I do believe that there is value to faith. Faith brings hope and a sense of community to people who need it.
A great example of this is in The Life of Pi.
SPOILER!
At the end of the movie Pi asks the atheist "Which do you prefer" to which the Atheist replies "The one with the tiger" Pi then replies "and so it is with God" What he is saying is that you have the reality of what happened, but the reality is terrible, and causes pain. Then you have the alternative which is bearable, and an overall triumphant experience.
I didn't see the movie but I read the book and I see your point. Faith can make life easier for people. Believing in some ridiculous story, an obvious lie that makes you feel better, and repeating this lie to yourself and others every day can certainly make some people's lives more bearable.
But me personally, I'd rather be true to myself than have faith in whatever story makes me feel better.
it's not "a lie", designed to make you feel better. there is truth. faith is not a suppliment for confidence or contentment.
To answer your question about science and God, I think we have to start with man is not omniscient and God is. The creation is something that existed in the mind of God before it actually came into being by the command of God. To say that we totally understand the creation is to say that we totally understand the mind of God or at least we are close to totally understanding the mind of God. God gave us a mind with reason and intellect, but I think that the scientific community in general is dogmatic about how much they really know about God's creation.
No legitimate scientist has ever said we totally understand the creation or anything close to it. There are manifold unanswered questions, ranging from the origin of life itself, to the nature of dark matter, to how properly to reconcile quantum and Newtonian physics. However...
We also have the issue of naturalism being the premise of all scientific inquiry in our scientific institutions today. This is a philosophical problem often overlooked by the scientific community today.
Methodological naturalism is the only way that science can operate. To say, "We did this experiment; the results don't make sense; therefore God," is to abandon the scientific enterprise entirely.
The thing that really gets me is that scientists (as a collective at least) are not out to prove or disprove any theology. They're just looking for the truth. If there was actual evidence of a global flood, geologists would acknowledge it. If the fossil record showed humans and dinosaurs coexisting simultaneously, paleontologists would acknowledge it. If species were fixed in their natures rather than subject to evolution, biologists would acknowledge it.
Bear in mind that one of the founders of modern science, Sir Isaac Newton, wrote more extensively (and with greater pleasure, as I take it) on theology than gravity. Charles Darwin was a Christian and ultimately became an agnostic not because of his evolutionary theory, but because of the death of his beloved ten year-old daughter. Science is not inherently hostile to religion. But scientists by now are generally non-Christian -- not because they have a bone to pick with the Bible, but because the facts overwhelmingly don't line up with Biblical claims.
science does what it wants, look for the deep fundamental truth. God is that truth, technically so is we are made up of cells. there is always more to it in science but I believe God is the truest truth.
x PLUS y EQUALS unknown means God? scientifically, no. religiously PLUS scientifically? God was behind it figure out why (or whatever)
understand this, you will bible
does the bible have more than one meaning in its bible? the entire book has message in it. "God is the universal foundation of all things and then some that I cannot state in one sentence." That's my quote.
Purposefully preaching schizo-inconsistencies is so baffling to me that I don't know the meaning of it, I think also you.
The sun rises for both the good and the evil and that is a universal thing that happens. Consequences both happen to the good and the bad, also universal. Bible says Jesus "show's no personal favoritism..." to his followers. God shows that these things naturally are universal. God shows universal tings such as these and also the consequences and natural affects by "these things". All things are universal consistency.
God IS Good you would say that too when it happens to you, consider you want crack in hell and then God will ask to you why do you take the rock? I believe that He is all so high that all the things we do is petty, yet significant out of love.
NOT THE logic
people NEED to care, and they need someone to care for them and He DOES and that is selfish? He does give what we want on another level. Consider what the things we want in the next 10-20 decades and are they the TRUE THINGS we would want? are you unhappy with he way things are at the moment that you would want all that you would ask for
[/quote]
we all work
I bet Jesus did the same thing
I don't wanna talk about that
I've heard these pompous comments all my life and they always seem to come from those who have seen and experienced the least.
That is exactly what I think of you
It saddens me to think of those unfortunate souls who spend so much time staring at scripture, their objectivity has been surrendered to whatever religion they subscribe to, and their thoughts are paralyzed by the notion that if they believe in [insert whatever religious dogma their religion promotes here] that they will be punished for believing otherwise. Their souls are threatened by those holding the collection plate and so they will believe whatever they are told to.
I didn't experience life until I put the scripture away and started reading things that weren't written by people trying to control me.
The surest way to stop thinking altogether is to put God at the end of the sentence.
The moment you say goddidit you stop thinking, and worse, you lose all hope of understanding because it never explains why something is the way it is. God is not an explanation at all. People who use God as an explanation do so because they're lazy and unwilling to try to find the real answer. As we gain knowledge with each passing century we uncover more and more things that were once explained as goddidit and we find natural reasons for it instead.
you can still do that, except God is at that point in the chain that can't continue having an answer
If you thought God sent you the $5 then that would be crazy.
If I got $5 in the mail I'd think hey cool, someone sent me five bucks.
"thanks God, I wonder this blessing."
Indoctrination is what keeps people from seeing the truth. When someone has the courage and objectivity to truly question their beliefs and scrutinize them for error, that is when they begin to see the truth.
I suggest same, except not with God. I mean, He is same as singing in moonlight, or waterfalls in desert. He's #1, can't fault #1 despite our understanding. I don't think He scrutinizes thinking the way you mention either, that's the way He made us. If anything I think strengthening our bonds, through doubt, with faith, is salvation
Okay for one thing....Sun Tzu is awesome. I'm totally cool with anyone who worships that guy.
For another thing, I liked Jesus for his merits and, apparently, you like him for his super powers. A normal person who is smart, wise, and kind is worth looking up to. Being able to walk on water is just bells and whistles to impress the ones who can't appreciate him for the attributes that actually matter.
I do not appreciate, love, worship or anything, solely, that makes him look like The Man of Steel. I love things about him because they remind me about the power of God. He is the greatest man who ever lived, to me. Everything about him gives me joy, I love it.
btw, "Being able to walk on water is just bells and whistles to impress the ones who can't appreciate him for the attributes that actually matter. " This, 100%
"/in my opinion"
aight
this "blindness" you talk of... it's disgusting, that someone could be possibly insane listening to the bible, believing it word for word and having no guts to "fight back" or think for themselves. I truly say to you that I may, resourcing myself with God, I have seen more than you. Putting God at the end of the sentence or explanation is truly something to behold and think about. "Wow, I got 5$ in the mail. Thanks God". Then, if you have curiosity, you think. "Why'd I get that 5$?". You'd think crazy without being crazy. if that's blindness, idk what isn't.
the belief you had where you think religion is blind, old, senile and crippling is what's keeping you from seeing the light. the truth.
btw, thinking Jesus as a wise old man merchant of souls is a pitiful way to think of him. that's like worshipping sun tzu.
What is the evidence for the truth? as if it needed to be a broken down and biologically studied piece of matter? the truth is there is no truth such as this, it isn't something analyzed and fragmented. it's like loving your mother. no proof needed. it's just there.
I can't believe you said that.
if i read this right , encendi wants good reason to support thiesm, specifically in this case christianity since evidence / proof (although in arcane? ways it does prove certain things in specific passages) is not the bible and is actually a strength of mans to go forward without knowing all the facts, or reasoning the logics. imagine how ugly uninspiring foolish dispicable and all these bad things the world would be if logic and rational were kings. if the rules of the world were based on our limited understanding(lol) instead the rule of God's, we would self-appoint, with arrogance and narcissism, superior to our fellow man who are just as equal as we, save certain strengths charachteristics and weaknesses, and everything else would be like the dark ages. compare that with the world you live in. that alone should glorify his work.
i am in crossroads of life after having breakdowns. either choose what i do be it as ****ty as it may which would make me feel ****ty about myself then patch it up after and make me feel good about myself. or, i can follow the bibles virtues or good ones in general and it would not feel good. this "feeling good about yourself because God" fantasy that YOU have isnt true. feeling good about yourself because of God is very true, i feel it all the time. it is the best feeling ive ever had, yours too. it IS special. that alone is worth it to me.
p.s. people would have attacked mammoths in groups of 4 or 5 with sticks and stones based on the evaluation given by these people with hard facts, trues, and blatant disregard of the impossible?
P.S.S. people who say thiests are the weak-minded and the athiests/agnostics have it backward, imo. which is easier, to say? "I believe in God", or, "i'm not made of flesh". is it stronger to believe in the inevitable? or the unlikely?
please do not think these as the basis for these proofs.
luke 5:22:25 "... why are you reasoning in your hearts"
it's not "a lie", designed to make you feel better. there is truth. faith is not a suppliment for confidence or contentment.
science does what it wants, look for the deep fundamental truth. God is that truth, technically so is we are made up of cells. there is always more to it in science but I believe God is the truest truth.
x PLUS y EQUALS unknown means God? scientifically, no. religiously PLUS scientifically? God was behind it figure out why (or whatever)