If you are only going to run 2, run something else. If you are only running 2, it means you do not want to see it early enough to run 4. If you are running it for looting filters, you want to see it early. If you are worried about it dying to removal, you want to run more copies. The thing about running 2, is that you are not going to see it early enough often enough, and if you are wanting the extra draw - just run a better draw spell that you can cast late game, because you are going to be seeing the card in the late game and by that time you could just cast a large draw spell...
There are a ton of reasons to run 4 and not 2, far more than there are to run 2 over running 4.
As for the argument about running 0, I think it is a legitimate argument to make. 0 over 4 is a better argument than 2 over 4. Personally, I think if you want to omit him, you can. I do not think he is absolutely necessary in the way that something like a sweeper spell is. I do however, think that decks with 4 are substantially better because of all of the additional variables you get out of the card.
As for what to cut, all I can say is that if you are unwilling to remove the walkers, then I have no other suggestions for you. I think your spell set up is essential, but your walker line up is not as essential. Cards like Narset Transcendent and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar are really volatile variables from my experience. Both were good, but they were good some of the time and bad the rest of the time and my conclusion was that they belonged in the board so you could make them good all of the time... but the reality I quickly came to accept was that they were not easy to justify in the board outside of that argument, which was an indication that they just really did not have any place in the deck when all was said and done. I make do with Jace, Telepath Unbound, Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, and Sorin, Grim Nemesis, which is a lot less than what you are packing - and I do far better than my gut would tell me if I was just looking at the list on paper. I think my list on paper actually kind of looks like *****.
Ultimate Price is way too sketch. I think people underestimate the potential of Eldrazi cards.
You need premium priced card draw. That is a fact. Jace solves this problem.
You need late game threat density. That is a fact. Jace solves this problem.
You are severely underestimating him and the disparity between 2 and 4 is substantial. Probably 30%-40% of my games are won from him, and people are jaded if they think that his +1 is nothing... his emblem is terrifying when the deck is built to cast spells over and over to stall the game out. The +1 may not do anything all of the time, but it stops chip damage and it presents incredible board presence.
If he is not flipping, he is looting. If he is not looting, he is buying you time... the most important resource you can have.
I know it's poor form to comment on your thread after a previous post but I wanted to rekindle discussion. I'll open up to main boarding JVP if someone can make a case that it would be beneficial in this specific decklist. I'm genuinely not seeing it, but I could be missing something.
Anyone want to take a swing?
I think the problem is that you are thinking about him as something that you only flash back a spell every few turns instead of a card that flashes back your BEST spell from the game, every few turns. It is not just some random crap shoot card, it is the best card you have played the entire game... which is a big deal, especially when they are silver bullet plays.
His flashback has an incredibly high ceiling for the same amount of risk you would put into almost any creature. It is all about the payout, plus... I win a lot of games off an emblem.
My concern is that in a creatureless deck there are no other targets for removal, and without fetches he is much less likely to survive to flipping. Flashback is great but I feel like more often that not he will be killed before ever having the opportunity to use his -3. Then I not only wasted card space but also mana. With nothing to show. I'm debating swapping out one anticipate and something else to put a 2x JVP but i just can't see him being effective when he's just going to end up in the graveyard. I'd also be pretty much obligated to put OJ's command back in and I have no idea what I would cut to do that.
If someone is leaving in Fiery Impulse to deal with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy... you are in next level mode. If they are running removal spells that are for Control decks, you are already siding in Negate and/or Dispel. If they are wasting mana killing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then they are not actually advancing their game plan... and for the very reasons that Declaration in Stone is great, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is great. You want time, and if little Jace has to die for you to get it, it then that is a small price to pay. You also have Learn from the Past. If all your copies end up in the yard, shuffle them back in. Running less than 4, is only making your DTR removal more relevant. Running a full set, makes it a poorer argument because he only cost 2 mana and your opponents often spend more than 2 mana to remove him. In the late game, you have coverage with counter magic to help get a flip off.
The longer the game goes, the easier he is to flip before he eats removal.
The more copies you run, the less it hurts having one die to removal.
Having him in the deck does not mean your game plan has to revolve around ever flipping him.
I know it's poor form to comment on your thread after a previous post but I wanted to rekindle discussion. I'll open up to main boarding JVP if someone can make a case that it would be beneficial in this specific decklist. I'm genuinely not seeing it, but I could be missing something.
Anyone want to take a swing?
I think the problem is that you are thinking about him as something that you only flash back a spell every few turns instead of a card that flashes back your BEST spell from the game, every few turns. It is not just some random crap shoot card, it is the best card you have played the entire game... which is a big deal, especially when they are silver bullet plays.
His flashback has an incredibly high ceiling for the same amount of risk you would put into almost any creature. It is all about the payout, plus... I win a lot of games off an emblem.
The awaken is way more relevant if you are only running Jace and Sorin. I have gotten a lot of games by getting a Jace emblem off and riding the awoken land to a close.
I was wondering how you deal with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I haven't played any since RtZ as my meta was so saturated with that [insert string of curse words] that I ended up running a 2 / 2 split of Infinite Obliteration. Unless I resolved that before they resolved him on like turn 5-7, it was usually a game over as they'd start chaining him and destroy my land base. I understand that having more exile effects will help, but the land destruction was brutal for me. Getting knocked off a color and then getting taken down to 4ish lands was just too much to recover from.
You just have to battle through it. It is not easy, but I have uploaded a Cockatrice replay for you to watch if you want. It is not really a game where Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger was played, but it was a game where my opponent had me under World Breaker recursion. He cast 8 World Breakers on me in the game, and 3 Chandra, Flamecaller while he was ahead. I still won the game, and I was even hampered on the amount of B mana I had at some rather inconvenient times - but in fairness, I also was drawing them at very convenient times.
A few things to note.
The Eldrazi Package
This package does not always consist of 3 or 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Often times, the real back breaking card is World Breaker. He can drop earlier and start wreaking havoc on your 3 color mana base (as displayed in the replay). Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is something you can leverage with. He is slow, and if you can cut off the ramp he is even slower. This allows you to build your mana base up and start getting threats out. Your ideal goal is to give them something else to target other than your land. If they have to exile Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, or Sorin, Grim Nemesis instead of 2 lands, you are still very much in the game. In the replay, you will see that I was aggressive with trying to flip Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. If you have the spells to work on a low curve, get aggressive with your planeswalkers. Whether or not the land matters or if your threat matters, is something you need to gauge. If you can get the threat out under the land destruction, then the land destruction hurts a lot less. If you cannot get the threat out under it, you need to focus on stalling it as long as possible. Anything above 6 lands is fluff and you can lose them to triggers without being out of the game. The Eldrazi package does not always run Reality Smasher either. It caught me off guard in the replay, but you can work around it.
Playing for the Long Game
The GR Elzrazi Ramp has a really solid late game, but something to keep in mind is that a good portion of their deck is devoted to getting their late game into play much earlier, so when the late game arrives, they draw a lot of those fuel cards that are not really doing anything. Always play for the long game here, and the longer game you play for, the better your chances of making optimal plays are because you have more live cards to keep a top deck war in your favor.
Diverting Their Plan of Attack
Discard spells are pretty enticing, as they can do a lot of work. You can use these to help you force them to focus on another line of play, but it is not entirely necessary. It will make your game a lot smoother, but consider what you are giving up for those spells. I personally like Pick the Brain over Infinite Obliteration. Both cost 3 mana, and one will hit everything without the need for Delirium, but the effect is not always necessary and the trade off is that if you have Delirium, you can take all their Chandra, Flamecallers as well. I like this because it become applicable in a Control vs Control match. Really though, forcing them to change their line of play is how you are going to nickle and dime them in the best possible way and you can do this by forcing them to exile a threat, or your lands. Use this as leverage.
Here is the download link to the Cockatrice Replay. You can place it in your replay folder or open it with Cockatrice to watch.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Like I said, I haven't played any since Gatewatch. I suspect things were much worse when my win cons were manlands or Awaken and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I hadn't considered the threat that World Breaker] which seems like a big one. But I hadn't taken into account having more legitimately threatening cards would inhibit an opponent from wrecking havoc on my lands via Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
It sounds like the match is not easy but definitely winnable without Infinite Obliteration.
Did you do much testing with Brain in a Jar? It looked to me like it was potentially an extremely powerful card, but I wasn't sure if the awkwardness / clunkiness would let it be playable.
Yeah, definitely watch the replay in Cockatrice if you can. I was behind the whole game and he kept my lands on lock down and my board empty - but it is great at showcasing how tight play can really get you there in this match and what leveraging your outs can accomplish. It was a long, but great game and I think most people would have conceded that game early on, from sheer tilt.
Infinite Obliteration is on my radar, but Pick the Brain can accomplish what it needs to in a similar way, and sometimes more efficiently. But I still would not rule out Obliteration.
I have not tested with Brain in a Jar at all, it is actually an interesting card. Just not sure where I can make room for it atm. 3 counters seems like a total sweet spot.
On the Topic of Declaration in Stone
This card is nuts. You may be giving your opponent a Clue token, but you have to think about what that token actually means, and a majority of our test games, it is time. Instead of them casting cards on their turn, they spend 2 to draw a card. I am okay with that. Instead of spending 2 on their turn, they do nothing with that 2 and pop the clue on my turn. I am okay with that, better than a 2 mana creature that represents damage. It is also something that sometimes has to be severely delayed, meaning they are not getting the card right away - I am perfectly fine with that. Some of my favorite text in the game comes straight from Wall of Denial, because it points out the foundation for every control deck - time.
Is giving them a clue optimal? Not really. But neither was giving them 5 life or a basic land. Sure, this spell is not 1 white mana and instant speed, but this is also very different from those formats and can do something that those spells did not - hit multiple creatures at ones without having to pay X. There is premium value in this card that is not written on the card.
On the Topic of Epiphany at the Graveyard
I think people overrate this card. You have to cast it for a lot in order to get good value out of it. Most of my experience is that you roll over lands and 1 or 2 good spells that you have to split. Sometimes you get wicket piles, but not often enough that you can cast it on the cheap. Throwing lots of cards in your bin without having a quick way to kill someone, means you run the risk of decking yourself in a grindy game. I think 4 is too many, the card is not that good.
The problem with Descend Upon the Sinful is that on curve, you need to have managed Delirium to make the spell worth 6 mana. Not always the easiest thing to do unless you are building for Delirium, at which point I would just... not. For 6 mana I could get a Linvala, the Preserver and get some life, some blockers, and a body to live past a Languish. With critical mass of spot removal, you should be able to keep the board under control enough to make sure your walkers are ticking up when entering and still in the safe zone - I would rather just run more spot removal and a walker instead of this for 6 mana.
We had Narset Transcendent in our list early on as a 1 of, she was great for rebounding removal, but we ended up cutting her for more removal instead. She is a fine card, but it was rough tapping 4 for her sometimes when you wanted to leave mana up and it was worth paying the extra mana for Jace. In the late game, we wanted our counter spells to be protecting a more advantageous planeswalker as well. I am still up in the air on her as I suspect she just needs to know what the meta will settle out to in terms of speed.
We also had Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in early and he was moved to the board. He was pretty ineffective a fair amount of the time. I am sure we will come back to him, he was not bad by any means.
What matches are you struggling with and what matches are you accelerating at?
Something to consider, is that Jace/Ob in a deck with 7 removal spells, as opposed to 13 - is like night and day. Dropping him into a board that is favoring your opponent, rather than on parity, is going to make these walkers seem rather unimpressive. Dropping them onto a board that is at parity, is going to net you probably 3-4 activation on average.
I just don't understand why everyone has such a hard on for Anguished Unmaking over Ruinous Path. I mean, realistically, how often will you be destroying an enchantment, artifact, or equipment? It has the same CMC but with a -3 life downside compared to Ruinous Path upside of having the versatility of becoming an additional threat in the late game. I get it, it's an instant... and yes if you are running Sorin you can recoup...
I guess there's pros and cons to both... I just have a bad taste in my mouth for the life loss.
I do not want to have to Ruinous Path a World Breaker, and I cannot Ruinous Path a Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. It is not about being able to target enchantments or artifacts. I also do not want to have a bunch of cards that cost 2 of any 1 mana, as much as I can avoid it. Having instant speed is also a plus, but not necessarily the best selling point imo.
I am not a fan of Transgress the Mind in the mainboard. Much like Negate, this card is going to have stronger applications when you know what your optimal timing is to actually use it and if it is largely necessary. Starting with it in your opening hand against something like RDW or even White Weenie, is just a total doozie. The card is strong, but I personally appreciate it out of the sideboard.
Sphinx of the Final Word might just be better as Linvala, the Preserver. You are already focusing on WW for Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - might as well trade the Hexproof and extra mana for a way more splashier effect. She is not as resilient to removal, but she can turn around games. Sphinx does not really do that. Control does not want to lose its win conditions, but sometimes it is probably better to play a better creature along with a tighter game to make sure they are safe, rather than using something like Hexproof to make sure they are safe.
WW for Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, BB for Languish, and UU for Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is daunting. I know a lot of people are going to tell you this, because it is partially true. But I am of the opinion that this mana base for Shard color set ups is pretty great, and you could even fit in colorless cards that cost pretty easily. But not if you are trying to get W, BB, and UU all in the mid game.
As for Engulf the Shore, I am a fan of the card. It is limited by requiring you to run a lot of Islands, but if you build your mana right the card is fine. You are running less removal than I am, so I suppose I am used to getting more mileage out of my early turns for a small Engulf the Shore to work - that and I am a pretty tight player, which helps when you are nickel and diming. Your sweepers are in there for the aggro decks, which are riddles with 2/1 and 2/2 creatures. You really only need 2 Islands by turn 4. Upping your spot removal will give you more mid game play for decks that run something like Sylvan Advocate while still letting you enjoy Engulf the Shore. I think our groups current test list is 2 Engulf the Shore / 1 Displacement Wave, 1 Languish. I am not certain how correct that is as it is strictly a noncommittal suite, but it is not horrible. Personally, I like a 2/2 or 3/1 split of Engulf the Shore and Languish respectively. Instant speed casts on shores against aggro with a tap out play can really put you back into the game on turns 4 and 5.
I briefly mentioned my drawing set up in the other thread, and it is still just 4 Anticipate, 2 Epiphany at the Drownyard, 3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, 3 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, and 2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis, and against midrange or control decks, I usually end the game with a rather small library, sometimes I have even been mere cards away from decking myself. I think people are underestimating how much these colors can actually draw with such a density of cards that do other things, while drawing - that they overlook that they are actually drawing cards.
Uhh...pretty huge generalizations there...Bouncing a creature is definitely not always better. Ulamog and world breaker would like a word....also Jace Isn't better..he's different...Ojutai's Command has been in SO MANY winning lists in various different decks..how can you say it's "horrible".
You are missing my point, it is not about the bounce, it is about the flexibility of the walker based on loyalty costs. As for bouncing Ulamog, and World Breaker - I assure you that I have had SO many games against GR Edlrazi in our test group and only once had I ever bounced either of those creatures, and it was because I had a JUoS emblem out to stall them on recasting it so I could safely land Sorin on a clean board. It was done because I was far enough ahead where it just didn't matter, not because it was a situation I needed to do so. If you are not running Declaration in Stone and instead running Silkwrap, then obviously the -2 on Jace is not as good, but it is not good because you are running much weaker removal in the first place.
Don't fault Jace because your deck construction is not calculating the essentials. Jace is way better than Ob Nixilis, I assure you.
I'm not missing the point, I'm aware you meant loyalty cost..the fact is you said Jace is better..he isn't; he's better in this deck. Jace really isn't good if you are playing B/W control:) Sure, this is an esper discussion, but you can't say X is better than X when they are different colours- it's like saying apples are better than oranges.
No one said anything bad about Jace or about ignoring him, it's a good card. I'm not sure whether I'm gonna go esper or not..I've got a few friends playing around with similar esper lists and I'm having better results with B/W. That said, eventually I know I'll swap over.
Anyway, no point to derailling the thread any further, your list looks great.
If I meant he was better outside of the context of this thread, I would do what everyone else does - use the word strictly. Go over to the BW discussion thread and talk about how Jace is not better than Ob Nixilis. On Nixils is a fine card, but if you are in blue, he is not better than Jace, you get a lot less value out of your 5 mana.
Uhh...pretty huge generalizations there...Bouncing a creature is definitely not always better. Ulamog and world breaker would like a word....also Jace Isn't better..he's different...Ojutai's Command has been in SO MANY winning lists in various different decks..how can you say it's "horrible".
You are missing my point, it is not about the bounce, it is about the flexibility of the walker based on loyalty costs. As for bouncing Ulamog, and World Breaker - I assure you that I have had SO many games against GR Edlrazi in our test group and only once had I ever bounced either of those creatures, and it was because I had a JUoS emblem out to stall them on recasting it so I could safely land Sorin on a clean board. It was done because I was far enough ahead where it just didn't matter, not because it was a situation I needed to do so. If you are not running Declaration in Stone and instead running Silkwrap, then obviously the -2 on Jace is not as good, but it is not good because you are running much weaker removal in the first place.
Don't fault Jace because your deck construction is not calculating the essentials. Jace is way better than Ob Nixilis, I assure you.
There are a ton of reasons to run 4 and not 2, far more than there are to run 2 over running 4.
As for the argument about running 0, I think it is a legitimate argument to make. 0 over 4 is a better argument than 2 over 4. Personally, I think if you want to omit him, you can. I do not think he is absolutely necessary in the way that something like a sweeper spell is. I do however, think that decks with 4 are substantially better because of all of the additional variables you get out of the card.
As for what to cut, all I can say is that if you are unwilling to remove the walkers, then I have no other suggestions for you. I think your spell set up is essential, but your walker line up is not as essential. Cards like Narset Transcendent and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar are really volatile variables from my experience. Both were good, but they were good some of the time and bad the rest of the time and my conclusion was that they belonged in the board so you could make them good all of the time... but the reality I quickly came to accept was that they were not easy to justify in the board outside of that argument, which was an indication that they just really did not have any place in the deck when all was said and done. I make do with Jace, Telepath Unbound, Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, and Sorin, Grim Nemesis, which is a lot less than what you are packing - and I do far better than my gut would tell me if I was just looking at the list on paper. I think my list on paper actually kind of looks like *****.
You need premium priced card draw. That is a fact. Jace solves this problem.
You need late game threat density. That is a fact. Jace solves this problem.
You are severely underestimating him and the disparity between 2 and 4 is substantial. Probably 30%-40% of my games are won from him, and people are jaded if they think that his +1 is nothing... his emblem is terrifying when the deck is built to cast spells over and over to stall the game out. The +1 may not do anything all of the time, but it stops chip damage and it presents incredible board presence.
If he is not flipping, he is looting. If he is not looting, he is buying you time... the most important resource you can have.
If someone is leaving in Fiery Impulse to deal with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy... you are in next level mode. If they are running removal spells that are for Control decks, you are already siding in Negate and/or Dispel. If they are wasting mana killing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then they are not actually advancing their game plan... and for the very reasons that Declaration in Stone is great, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is great. You want time, and if little Jace has to die for you to get it, it then that is a small price to pay. You also have Learn from the Past. If all your copies end up in the yard, shuffle them back in. Running less than 4, is only making your DTR removal more relevant. Running a full set, makes it a poorer argument because he only cost 2 mana and your opponents often spend more than 2 mana to remove him. In the late game, you have coverage with counter magic to help get a flip off.
Sometimes, just getting a loot or two off can go a long ways. Skip command, keep in your Anticipate and just run a full set of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. He is better than Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
I think the problem is that you are thinking about him as something that you only flash back a spell every few turns instead of a card that flashes back your BEST spell from the game, every few turns. It is not just some random crap shoot card, it is the best card you have played the entire game... which is a big deal, especially when they are silver bullet plays.
His flashback has an incredibly high ceiling for the same amount of risk you would put into almost any creature. It is all about the payout, plus... I win a lot of games off an emblem.
Yeah, definitely watch the replay in Cockatrice if you can. I was behind the whole game and he kept my lands on lock down and my board empty - but it is great at showcasing how tight play can really get you there in this match and what leveraging your outs can accomplish. It was a long, but great game and I think most people would have conceded that game early on, from sheer tilt.
Infinite Obliteration is on my radar, but Pick the Brain can accomplish what it needs to in a similar way, and sometimes more efficiently. But I still would not rule out Obliteration.
I have not tested with Brain in a Jar at all, it is actually an interesting card. Just not sure where I can make room for it atm. 3 counters seems like a total sweet spot.
On the Topic of Declaration in Stone
This card is nuts. You may be giving your opponent a Clue token, but you have to think about what that token actually means, and a majority of our test games, it is time. Instead of them casting cards on their turn, they spend 2 to draw a card. I am okay with that. Instead of spending 2 on their turn, they do nothing with that 2 and pop the clue on my turn. I am okay with that, better than a 2 mana creature that represents damage. It is also something that sometimes has to be severely delayed, meaning they are not getting the card right away - I am perfectly fine with that. Some of my favorite text in the game comes straight from Wall of Denial, because it points out the foundation for every control deck - time.
Is giving them a clue optimal? Not really. But neither was giving them 5 life or a basic land. Sure, this spell is not 1 white mana and instant speed, but this is also very different from those formats and can do something that those spells did not - hit multiple creatures at ones without having to pay X. There is premium value in this card that is not written on the card.
On the Topic of Epiphany at the Graveyard
I think people overrate this card. You have to cast it for a lot in order to get good value out of it. Most of my experience is that you roll over lands and 1 or 2 good spells that you have to split. Sometimes you get wicket piles, but not often enough that you can cast it on the cheap. Throwing lots of cards in your bin without having a quick way to kill someone, means you run the risk of decking yourself in a grindy game. I think 4 is too many, the card is not that good.
We had Narset Transcendent in our list early on as a 1 of, she was great for rebounding removal, but we ended up cutting her for more removal instead. She is a fine card, but it was rough tapping 4 for her sometimes when you wanted to leave mana up and it was worth paying the extra mana for Jace. In the late game, we wanted our counter spells to be protecting a more advantageous planeswalker as well. I am still up in the air on her as I suspect she just needs to know what the meta will settle out to in terms of speed.
We also had Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in early and he was moved to the board. He was pretty ineffective a fair amount of the time. I am sure we will come back to him, he was not bad by any means.
What matches are you struggling with and what matches are you accelerating at?
I do not want to have to Ruinous Path a World Breaker, and I cannot Ruinous Path a Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. It is not about being able to target enchantments or artifacts. I also do not want to have a bunch of cards that cost 2 of any 1 mana, as much as I can avoid it. Having instant speed is also a plus, but not necessarily the best selling point imo.
Sphinx of the Final Word might just be better as Linvala, the Preserver. You are already focusing on WW for Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - might as well trade the Hexproof and extra mana for a way more splashier effect. She is not as resilient to removal, but she can turn around games. Sphinx does not really do that. Control does not want to lose its win conditions, but sometimes it is probably better to play a better creature along with a tighter game to make sure they are safe, rather than using something like Hexproof to make sure they are safe.
WW for Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, BB for Languish, and UU for Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is daunting. I know a lot of people are going to tell you this, because it is partially true. But I am of the opinion that this mana base for Shard color set ups is pretty great, and you could even fit in colorless cards that cost
As for Engulf the Shore, I am a fan of the card. It is limited by requiring you to run a lot of Islands, but if you build your mana right the card is fine. You are running less removal than I am, so I suppose I am used to getting more mileage out of my early turns for a small Engulf the Shore to work - that and I am a pretty tight player, which helps when you are nickel and diming. Your sweepers are in there for the aggro decks, which are riddles with 2/1 and 2/2 creatures. You really only need 2 Islands by turn 4. Upping your spot removal will give you more mid game play for decks that run something like Sylvan Advocate while still letting you enjoy Engulf the Shore. I think our groups current test list is 2 Engulf the Shore / 1 Displacement Wave, 1 Languish. I am not certain how correct that is as it is strictly a noncommittal suite, but it is not horrible. Personally, I like a 2/2 or 3/1 split of Engulf the Shore and Languish respectively. Instant speed casts on shores against aggro with a tap out play can really put you back into the game on turns 4 and 5.
I briefly mentioned my drawing set up in the other thread, and it is still just 4 Anticipate, 2 Epiphany at the Drownyard, 3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, 3 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, and 2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis, and against midrange or control decks, I usually end the game with a rather small library, sometimes I have even been mere cards away from decking myself. I think people are underestimating how much these colors can actually draw with such a density of cards that do other things, while drawing - that they overlook that they are actually drawing cards.
If I meant he was better outside of the context of this thread, I would do what everyone else does - use the word strictly. Go over to the BW discussion thread and talk about how Jace is not better than Ob Nixilis. On Nixils is a fine card, but if you are in blue, he is not better than Jace, you get a lot less value out of your 5 mana.
You are missing my point, it is not about the bounce, it is about the flexibility of the walker based on loyalty costs. As for bouncing Ulamog, and World Breaker - I assure you that I have had SO many games against GR Edlrazi in our test group and only once had I ever bounced either of those creatures, and it was because I had a JUoS emblem out to stall them on recasting it so I could safely land Sorin on a clean board. It was done because I was far enough ahead where it just didn't matter, not because it was a situation I needed to do so. If you are not running Declaration in Stone and instead running Silkwrap, then obviously the -2 on Jace is not as good, but it is not good because you are running much weaker removal in the first place.
Don't fault Jace because your deck construction is not calculating the essentials. Jace is way better than Ob Nixilis, I assure you.