1st things first: UWR is decent, especially if you tweak it and you CAN tweak it.
2nd thing: noone forces you to play modern. Control is also viable in Standard, Legacy, Pauper and probably Vintage & Commander too.
I mean no offense here, but modern is NOT a control format currently - and that's it. Some people like that (me for example, since I like being one of the very few control players AND because control is rampant in Pauper/Standard) others don't. If you don't like it, don't play it, it's as easy as that. Or are you complaining about the DC Universe / Yu-Gi-Oh meta too? not playing a format will sovle your problems with that format/game
How about you actually read the post and understand the point I was making then come back.
My day 2 was less notable: 1-3 drop. I won RG aggro-loam, lost to domain zoo and twice to twin.
My double loss to twin was because of these points:
1) They switching to agro mode in matchup vs control. Combo is just complementary plan. So I've lost two games (if i remember correctly) because I was afraid of casting ultimatum into open mana or big opponent's hand. But it was turning out that hand contained burn and snaps.
2) I lost another game because I was trying to go aggro with snaps and bolts after stripping opponent's hand with discard, but he still won with serum visions into splinter twin.
It looks like it would be nice to have some kind of aggro sideboard plan. For example, Anathemancers (I like a lot that card since Chapin's 5 color blood).
Having an aggro sideboard plan sounds really interesting. I wonder if the deck is able to go that direction.
I got to unload this bit thats been bothering me for a while, but I think this top 8 really shows it. The USA modern meta is stupid in comparison to the international one. Its seems like most america "Pros" really hate up on modern, thus always pick a deck they can run easier, or was told its the best deck. And they never practice.
But this top 8 shows what modern is. Its a meta you can take your favorite play style, learn your decks rules, tweak it, and win. Everyone in the top 8 talked about how they liked their deck, and really practiced with it. They Enjoyed their decks. Notice no US players made the top 8.
Just something worth noting. That these US "pros" can get so far with their skill as players, but the guys who know and trust their decks have the edge on top of all that. Its refreshing to see it.
0 control, flooded with combo. You don't see a problem with that? What if your favorite deck is something that isn't combo? You don't think there's any control players who practice with their decks and like them a lot?
thanks for the heads up! i have a tactical question: vs splinter twin (which i almost always lose to), do you go for the counter war, early disruption or try being the beatdown? i am very interested in how you approach that matchup.
ps: there is only one russian in reach of top 8 (after round 11) i hope its you.
Not fast enough to be the beatdown, so you need to go for disruption and try to win the counter war. This matchup is so bad for my list since I'm tuned to be so anti-creature, though. It's hard to be good against combo and creature based agro :/
I'm digging the list. In my previous post I said remand is like think twice but better I think it holds true for your deck. I would cut the think twices for remand. Serum visions, even considering deck manipulation, is not a good card. You're not combo. I like the izzet Chan experiment, hitting drs is cool. The lack of spell snare hurts my soul (note the name). Only one damnation seems greedy. 25 land seems greedier. Let us know how it tests for you
Edit: Played some more matches against generic jund and outside of having a really hard time against T2 lili (game is still close), the deck is well positioned and I still think the matchup favors the list I posted on the last page.
I really like the idea of remand in the deck stalling for our T4 powerhouses to come online. I hadn't even considered it since I was tunneling on attempting to move things to sorc speed. Outside of T2 talismans I like the thought of remands. It's like a think twice, but better.
not. because i was so horribly hungover and still drunk from friday night. i even forgot to play a sided in shadow of doubt in hand vs scapeshift in game 2.. and kept a hand with 3 lightning bolts vs uwr geist of saint win. tho other games i lost to getting actually mana screwed while playing a deck with 26 lands... so, it want really my day.
nevertheless, i have some things to share:
i was trying out steam augury again (and thanks lectrys, but what i meant was i get not the card i need in that situation, i just dont like not having the last word) and it performed quite good, by the way it draws a counter whenever the opponent can, people seem scared of it. but architect of thought, which i played too as a one-of, had usually more impact - and i have the last decision.
Hype destroyer
So what I can gather from this is that you feel the steam augury can be a jace?
Figured I'd share what I had been working on. I've been looking for ways to shift to a more tapout style, with a focus on trying to find ways to drop mana leak (I really dislike the card). Theros has helped with the new cards anger of the gods and hero's downfall, both answers to aggro and lili, respectively. Thoughts? I desperately need to find a way to shore up the burn matchup, even if it's only post-board. Living to cast cruel control seems like a bad plan (my current plan)
I started from Chapin's list, as I felt I had to pray a lot less often compared to Cheon's list (dear god let me get to 4 so I can teachings the card I need dealer one time go), and worked from there. I went down a sunken ruins and added a graven cairn and 2 cascade bluffs because of the double red requirement on Anger of the Gods and double black on Hero's Downfall. I really like river of tears. The turn it comes down can be crucial for hitting that BBB for gatekeeper, while having U on my opponent's turn helps enable cryptic. I'm considering going to 2... maybe even 3. That's probably loose, though.
I love lavaclaw. I've always jammed 4 creeping tar pits into these types of lists, but being able to pump has actually been very relevant for me. Unblockable has been surprisingly irrelevant. I'm still going with a 3/1, though. Diversity can be useful.
I really thought I would want to drop to 2 Cruel Ultimatums because it's so damn expensive, but I love seeing the card. What if it gets nabbed by discard? It happens more often than I thought it would. Only 2 snapcasters makes this even more necessary to have 3 over 2. I considered cutting the mulls but I really haven't minded tapping out on T3 in order to draw to a damnation or hero's downfall or the land I need for cryptic/gatekeeper.
So how do I play this deck?
Vs Agro/Affinity (These should probably be seperate, but I play the matches similarly)
T1/T2 are draw-go or cast T2 talisman go. After that it's nearly all sorc speed. He's performed very well for me, and if you can T3 anger/electrolyze/downfall/gatekeeper into T4 jace/damnation it's almost impossible for aggro to overcome (though if you're chilling on 3 you've done too little and you're going to die to a lightning bolt). Against affinity everything is fairly similar, but god help you if you can't deal with inkmoth at instant speed. Getting to T4 with cryptic is game against affinity. I actually feel decent against agro with this deck. It isn't soul sisters, but I wouldn't say we're anything below 45/55 (yeah I do feel slightly disadvantaged, but that's due to a lack of things to do on T1/2 outside bolt and snare... snare is so good in this format). Post-board not much is changing. The mulldrifters are coming out for explosives and batterskull. I do not want to cut the cruels, they're my only life gain, and it's very sad :<
Vs Scapeshift
Most grixis decks are fantastic against scapeshift, this is not one of those decks. Thankfully, scapeshift has seen a downturn in turnout because of the prevalence in rock/jund turnout with some serious amounts of disruption. You don't have mana leaks and there's no disruption in the main. There are things that can be done, though. Against scapeshift we're extremely conservative with our life. Make them get as many mountains as possible. We're bolting sakura tribe-elders if they swing in and we're on 19 or chumping with gatekeepers/snappys. Make them grab those mountains, do not get down to 18 life if you can help it. We're going to have to try and burn them out/beat them down while praying for cryptic. It's not good. Post-board isn't much better. Thoughtseizes are coming in over angers, spellskite over one damnation (seeing an opponent's face when they slip up and you redirect everything is fantastic, but don't count on it against someone who likely is going to try and EoT cryptic your spellskite back to hand), both counterfluxes for both hero's downfall, shadow of doubt for the last damnation, and I bring in 2 sowing salt over 2 electrolyze. This last one may be a mistake, but even holding scapeshift off their combo for one turn can be huge and I value it over the cantrip+2 damage (maybe this is wrong, though, since electrolyze can make sure sakure isn't getting in). Post-board I'm ok with our gameplan. If they've transformed into a ramp deck who cares? We still have our gatekeepers forcing them to sacrifice, and we still have cruel ultimatum.
Vs Pod
Anger of the Gods. What a beautiful card. I don't know what else to say about the matchup, honestly. Anger has been an absolute monster vs this deck. If you can resolve it T3 or T4 it's swinging the game wildly in your favor. Some amazing interaction I didn't expect to be so awesome was an EoT removal of something, anything, into a gatekeeper. If you can get pod to have only 1 creature on the board when gatekeeper lands it's gg. The game is so far in your favor it isn't even funny. At this point be wary of them getting the kiki online, but beyond that you should be able to enjoy a smooth ride to crueltown. I'm loving this matchup. I'd honestly say it's probably 55/45 pre-board (is it sad that with the state of control in modern I'm this happy over being barely favored?). Post-board we're bringing in engineered explosives as a potential T1/T2 board wipe into gatekeeper over a spell snare, rakdos charm over another spell snare (say bye bye to pod or a persist creature at worst), shadow of doubt over the last spell snare (no searching for you AND you just sac'd your creature), 2 thoughtseize over mulldrifters. You can consider dropping one or both damnations. I don't, but it isn't a bad option if you really like spell snare in the matchup or you love your mulldrifters. Be aware that a pod deck that sees how slow we are can go into beatdown mode. I love the match post-board.
Vs Jund
Turn 3 Lili is a beating. The best thing we can hope for is having hero's downfall. If you can manage to bolt the T1 DRS then the odds shift very much in your favor. Spell snare grabs so much relevant stuff in this matchup, SO MUCH. Ooze, tarmo, and bob. Yum. They play threats, we remove them. Bob kills them eventually or they have to take care of him themselves. The match is a delicate balance of determining at which point you become the beatdown. Live long enough for cruel control? Game over. Jund is extremely weak against burn for a reason. Find a way to hold out long enough and you will win this matchup. We match bob with Jace and mulldrifter (lol). Hold out, the match is in your favor. Post-board is all flavor of the jund dependent. Don't bring in thoughtseize trying to take preemptively grab lili, it's a losing plan. Remember, they're the beatdown until we are. Batterskull is the only card I bring in over something... usually anger of the gods. Sure anger hits ooze (most of the time) and bob, but tarmo is the real issue for beats until they can get some other threat onto the board. Damnation takes care of everything anger does anyways and we're not on the kind of clock aggro/affinity presents. Jace is GDLK against lingering souls.
Vs Splinter Twin
More combo, but at least here we have bolt/electrolyze against pestermite and downfall against exarch. Yeah that doesn't look very promising to me either. The lack of mana leak/instant speed removal hurts here. Post-board we're bringing in thoughtseizes over damnations, counterfluxes over angers, rakdos charm, engineered explosives, spellskite over the spell snares (I prefer cutting the snares over gatekeepers b/c I like the beats since twin has inevitability we need to beat, even with cruels stripping their hand). I don't like this matchup, we lack instant answers to a resolved EoT exarch. Help me team.
Vs Urza
We lose. No ifs ands or buts. Bring in your hard counters and salts, take out the board wipes. Thoughtseizes over snares. Teachings over the last snare. Teachings out hero's downfall and pray. I don't know what to do here. We're the only control deck in history where our worst matches are combo.
Vs other control decks
Resolve early beaters and make them deal with it. A resolved cruel ultimatum is gg, try and force their counters. Drop your board wipes and bring in thoughtseize/counterflux. Depending on what they're running you may need to bring in spell skite as protection for your manlands. Take care of their late game collonades. The match is very tense, and a resolved sphinx's rev X>3 is going to be very bad for you.
Things I want to look into: shriekmaw, swan song. Other ways to help with disruption against combo without destroying the sideboard (maybe that's what it takes).
I'm not the best player, and the people I test with are about the same level as me. I'm also getting tired and the quality has decreased as I continued to write this post, but I felt we should get some matchup discussion in here and I have some relevant experience I feel you folks can comment on
Edit: No matter what, the deck is extremely fun to play.
Edit: why couldn't it have been a 2/1 tribute 3
How about you actually read the post and understand the point I was making then come back.
Having an aggro sideboard plan sounds really interesting. I wonder if the deck is able to go that direction.
0 control, flooded with combo. You don't see a problem with that? What if your favorite deck is something that isn't combo? You don't think there's any control players who practice with their decks and like them a lot?
Your thinking seems really biased.
Not fast enough to be the beatdown, so you need to go for disruption and try to win the counter war. This matchup is so bad for my list since I'm tuned to be so anti-creature, though. It's hard to be good against combo and creature based agro :/
Edit: Played some more matches against generic jund and outside of having a really hard time against T2 lili (game is still close), the deck is well positioned and I still think the matchup favors the list I posted on the last page.
Hype destroyer
So what I can gather from this is that you feel the steam augury can be a jace?
3 Talisman of Dominance
Creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Mulldrifter
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
2 Hero's Downfall
Sorceries
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Damnation
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
3 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 River of Tears
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Watery Grave
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Graven Cairns
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Batterskull
2 Chromatic Lantern
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Spellskite
2 Counterflux
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Sowing Salt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Combust
I started from Chapin's list, as I felt I had to pray a lot less often compared to Cheon's list (dear god let me get to 4 so I can teachings the card I need dealer one time go), and worked from there. I went down a sunken ruins and added a graven cairn and 2 cascade bluffs because of the double red requirement on Anger of the Gods and double black on Hero's Downfall. I really like river of tears. The turn it comes down can be crucial for hitting that BBB for gatekeeper, while having U on my opponent's turn helps enable cryptic. I'm considering going to 2... maybe even 3. That's probably loose, though.
I love lavaclaw. I've always jammed 4 creeping tar pits into these types of lists, but being able to pump has actually been very relevant for me. Unblockable has been surprisingly irrelevant. I'm still going with a 3/1, though. Diversity can be useful.
I really thought I would want to drop to 2 Cruel Ultimatums because it's so damn expensive, but I love seeing the card. What if it gets nabbed by discard? It happens more often than I thought it would. Only 2 snapcasters makes this even more necessary to have 3 over 2. I considered cutting the mulls but I really haven't minded tapping out on T3 in order to draw to a damnation or hero's downfall or the land I need for cryptic/gatekeeper.
So how do I play this deck?
Vs Agro/Affinity (These should probably be seperate, but I play the matches similarly)
T1/T2 are draw-go or cast T2 talisman go. After that it's nearly all sorc speed. He's performed very well for me, and if you can T3 anger/electrolyze/downfall/gatekeeper into T4 jace/damnation it's almost impossible for aggro to overcome (though if you're chilling on 3 you've done too little and you're going to die to a lightning bolt). Against affinity everything is fairly similar, but god help you if you can't deal with inkmoth at instant speed. Getting to T4 with cryptic is game against affinity. I actually feel decent against agro with this deck. It isn't soul sisters, but I wouldn't say we're anything below 45/55 (yeah I do feel slightly disadvantaged, but that's due to a lack of things to do on T1/2 outside bolt and snare... snare is so good in this format). Post-board not much is changing. The mulldrifters are coming out for explosives and batterskull. I do not want to cut the cruels, they're my only life gain, and it's very sad :<
Vs Scapeshift
Most grixis decks are fantastic against scapeshift, this is not one of those decks. Thankfully, scapeshift has seen a downturn in turnout because of the prevalence in rock/jund turnout with some serious amounts of disruption. You don't have mana leaks and there's no disruption in the main. There are things that can be done, though. Against scapeshift we're extremely conservative with our life. Make them get as many mountains as possible. We're bolting sakura tribe-elders if they swing in and we're on 19 or chumping with gatekeepers/snappys. Make them grab those mountains, do not get down to 18 life if you can help it. We're going to have to try and burn them out/beat them down while praying for cryptic. It's not good. Post-board isn't much better. Thoughtseizes are coming in over angers, spellskite over one damnation (seeing an opponent's face when they slip up and you redirect everything is fantastic, but don't count on it against someone who likely is going to try and EoT cryptic your spellskite back to hand), both counterfluxes for both hero's downfall, shadow of doubt for the last damnation, and I bring in 2 sowing salt over 2 electrolyze. This last one may be a mistake, but even holding scapeshift off their combo for one turn can be huge and I value it over the cantrip+2 damage (maybe this is wrong, though, since electrolyze can make sure sakure isn't getting in). Post-board I'm ok with our gameplan. If they've transformed into a ramp deck who cares? We still have our gatekeepers forcing them to sacrifice, and we still have cruel ultimatum.
Vs Pod
Anger of the Gods. What a beautiful card. I don't know what else to say about the matchup, honestly. Anger has been an absolute monster vs this deck. If you can resolve it T3 or T4 it's swinging the game wildly in your favor. Some amazing interaction I didn't expect to be so awesome was an EoT removal of something, anything, into a gatekeeper. If you can get pod to have only 1 creature on the board when gatekeeper lands it's gg. The game is so far in your favor it isn't even funny. At this point be wary of them getting the kiki online, but beyond that you should be able to enjoy a smooth ride to crueltown. I'm loving this matchup. I'd honestly say it's probably 55/45 pre-board (is it sad that with the state of control in modern I'm this happy over being barely favored?). Post-board we're bringing in engineered explosives as a potential T1/T2 board wipe into gatekeeper over a spell snare, rakdos charm over another spell snare (say bye bye to pod or a persist creature at worst), shadow of doubt over the last spell snare (no searching for you AND you just sac'd your creature), 2 thoughtseize over mulldrifters. You can consider dropping one or both damnations. I don't, but it isn't a bad option if you really like spell snare in the matchup or you love your mulldrifters. Be aware that a pod deck that sees how slow we are can go into beatdown mode. I love the match post-board.
Vs Jund
Turn 3 Lili is a beating. The best thing we can hope for is having hero's downfall. If you can manage to bolt the T1 DRS then the odds shift very much in your favor. Spell snare grabs so much relevant stuff in this matchup, SO MUCH. Ooze, tarmo, and bob. Yum. They play threats, we remove them. Bob kills them eventually or they have to take care of him themselves. The match is a delicate balance of determining at which point you become the beatdown. Live long enough for cruel control? Game over. Jund is extremely weak against burn for a reason. Find a way to hold out long enough and you will win this matchup. We match bob with Jace and mulldrifter (lol). Hold out, the match is in your favor. Post-board is all flavor of the jund dependent. Don't bring in thoughtseize trying to take preemptively grab lili, it's a losing plan. Remember, they're the beatdown until we are. Batterskull is the only card I bring in over something... usually anger of the gods. Sure anger hits ooze (most of the time) and bob, but tarmo is the real issue for beats until they can get some other threat onto the board. Damnation takes care of everything anger does anyways and we're not on the kind of clock aggro/affinity presents. Jace is GDLK against lingering souls.
Vs Splinter Twin
More combo, but at least here we have bolt/electrolyze against pestermite and downfall against exarch. Yeah that doesn't look very promising to me either. The lack of mana leak/instant speed removal hurts here. Post-board we're bringing in thoughtseizes over damnations, counterfluxes over angers, rakdos charm, engineered explosives, spellskite over the spell snares (I prefer cutting the snares over gatekeepers b/c I like the beats since twin has inevitability we need to beat, even with cruels stripping their hand). I don't like this matchup, we lack instant answers to a resolved EoT exarch. Help me team.
Vs Urza
We lose. No ifs ands or buts. Bring in your hard counters and salts, take out the board wipes. Thoughtseizes over snares. Teachings over the last snare. Teachings out hero's downfall and pray. I don't know what to do here. We're the only control deck in history where our worst matches are combo.
Vs other control decks
Resolve early beaters and make them deal with it. A resolved cruel ultimatum is gg, try and force their counters. Drop your board wipes and bring in thoughtseize/counterflux. Depending on what they're running you may need to bring in spell skite as protection for your manlands. Take care of their late game collonades. The match is very tense, and a resolved sphinx's rev X>3 is going to be very bad for you.
Things I want to look into: shriekmaw, swan song. Other ways to help with disruption against combo without destroying the sideboard (maybe that's what it takes).
I'm not the best player, and the people I test with are about the same level as me. I'm also getting tired and the quality has decreased as I continued to write this post, but I felt we should get some matchup discussion in here and I have some relevant experience I feel you folks can comment on
Edit: No matter what, the deck is extremely fun to play.