Clearly this leans more aggro without the Caryatid's. This was essentially a meta call: it succeeds in putting other midrange decks on the back foot while still having late game reach.
I beat Jeskai Tempo/Burn, Abzan Midrange mirror, Mardu Tokens, and G/b/w devotion. Whip was the all-star tonight, saving me in games 2 and 3 against Jeskai. Recursing Siege Rhino is one of the most powerful synergies in Standard and it won me two games. Wingmate Roc gets significantly better with the cats on the board. No one wants to block the Deathdealer, so it wasn't difficult to trigger Raid. Hand disruption is critical for the G/x devotion decks - snatching a Genesis Hydra, Hornet Queen, or even an early Caryatid to put them off curve is huge.
Obviously I'm not sold on Caryatid in this archetype. This deck excels by putting together individually powerful cards into a cohesive whole, and to me, Caryatid simply isn't necessary. It's not a card we want to see mid/late game, doesn't put any pressure on the opponent, and can't proactively disrupt the opponents game plan. My two cents.
I think Deathdealer is being underrated, and big time, judging by the lists I'm seeing in this thread.
It's a very skill intensive but versatile threat that can take over games by itself. With regen/pump mana up, he can attack in to any early game board we're likely to see and opponents will almost always take the two. This allows you to hold mana up for removal during your opponents turn, which can be a tremendous tempo advantage for this deck.
Played smartly, the card forces your opponent to make decisions they aren't super confident with.
Stormbreath is definitely a pain. If you aren't running 4 downfalls, it's the reason you should be.
Sarkhan has seemed win more when I've encountered him...keep in mind they need blockers held back to keep him around more than a turn or two vs this deck.
BTW, has anyone seen any blue decks? Do we even need Mistcutter in the 75? I feel like this deck can beat whatever permission based control throws at it without the hydra.
That looks very similar to my list, except I won't run more than two Polukranos and I'm pretty sure I always want two Sorin. He is ridiculous to deal with and shines in the midgame.
I think 3 Thoughtseize is also the correct number.
I'm also not sold on Sandsteppe Citadel. The scry on the Temples is a real life saver.
I've been testing variations of this deck a lot and just want to add a couple of notes:
Doomwake Giant is an interesting option out of the board. Not sure if it's better than Drown in Sorrow, but it does hit relevant tokens while providing board presence.
If this deck is as strong as we all think it will be, Erebos, God of the Dead is really, really solid as a 1-of in the mirror match. Wingmate Roc also shines in the mirror because Elspeth.
Right, but with powerful cards like Lotus Cobra and Knight of the Reliquary around, it's worth considering the notion that Arbiter/GQ is a 100% auto-include in the archetype.
I'm not sure how we beat it consistently, especially on the draw. They play just enough big butts in Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, and Nylea's Disciple to fend off our early game, eventually building up to massive Nykthos hi jinx. I had an opponent fire off a Polukranos monstrous for 17, which basically wiped my board besides a couple of regen'd Experiments and a leftover Voice token. Polukranos, World Eater, Sylvan Primordial, and Nylea, God of the Hunt seem to be the primary win-cons.
I fully expect to see more of this deck as we get closer to rotation and G/B based devotion in general getting stronger post.
So, what can we put in our 75 that helps tip this match up in our favor? I'm not certain I see *good* answers in the existing pool.
3 Fleecemane Lion
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Siege Rhino
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
Planeswalkers (4)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells (13)
3 Abzan Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Bile Blight
1 Murderous Cut
3 Thoughtseize
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Silence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Windswept Heath
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Doomwake Giant
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Despise
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Utter End
1 Whip of Erebos
Clearly this leans more aggro without the Caryatid's. This was essentially a meta call: it succeeds in putting other midrange decks on the back foot while still having late game reach.
I beat Jeskai Tempo/Burn, Abzan Midrange mirror, Mardu Tokens, and G/b/w devotion. Whip was the all-star tonight, saving me in games 2 and 3 against Jeskai. Recursing Siege Rhino is one of the most powerful synergies in Standard and it won me two games. Wingmate Roc gets significantly better with the cats on the board. No one wants to block the Deathdealer, so it wasn't difficult to trigger Raid. Hand disruption is critical for the G/x devotion decks - snatching a Genesis Hydra, Hornet Queen, or even an early Caryatid to put them off curve is huge.
Obviously I'm not sold on Caryatid in this archetype. This deck excels by putting together individually powerful cards into a cohesive whole, and to me, Caryatid simply isn't necessary. It's not a card we want to see mid/late game, doesn't put any pressure on the opponent, and can't proactively disrupt the opponents game plan. My two cents.
It's a very skill intensive but versatile threat that can take over games by itself. With regen/pump mana up, he can attack in to any early game board we're likely to see and opponents will almost always take the two. This allows you to hold mana up for removal during your opponents turn, which can be a tremendous tempo advantage for this deck.
Played smartly, the card forces your opponent to make decisions they aren't super confident with.
Do we make sure to run at least 3 pridemage because of it? 4? Up the Thalia count? It's going to show up everywhere soon.
Are there other versatile threats that we can main? Reclamation Sage, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Nevermore may be solid options out of the board in the short term
Sarkhan has seemed win more when I've encountered him...keep in mind they need blockers held back to keep him around more than a turn or two vs this deck.
but boarding in sorrow, rams/walls, bile blight, doomwake giant etc. is really going to swing the matchup in our favor.
I think 3 Thoughtseize is also the correct number.
I'm also not sold on Sandsteppe Citadel. The scry on the Temples is a real life saver.
Doomwake Giant is an interesting option out of the board. Not sure if it's better than Drown in Sorrow, but it does hit relevant tokens while providing board presence.
If this deck is as strong as we all think it will be, Erebos, God of the Dead is really, really solid as a 1-of in the mirror match. Wingmate Roc also shines in the mirror because Elspeth.
Wall of Essence may be better than Nyx-Fleece Ram in the upcoming meta. It can gain life much quicker than Nyx-Fleece Ram and dodges enchantment removal.
Obviously there are still spoilers to go, but I think ultimately we end up splashing B, the deck leans more mid-range, or both.
Time to test...
It's a meta call of course, but do we start subbing out MonoU hate for Keening Apparition, Reclamation Sage and/or Unravel the Aether?
The top two were similar Green builds splashing black/blue for Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, Pharika, God of Affliction, Prophet of Kruphix etc.
I'm not sure how we beat it consistently, especially on the draw. They play just enough big butts in Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, and Nylea's Disciple to fend off our early game, eventually building up to massive Nykthos hi jinx. I had an opponent fire off a Polukranos monstrous for 17, which basically wiped my board besides a couple of regen'd Experiments and a leftover Voice token. Polukranos, World Eater, Sylvan Primordial, and Nylea, God of the Hunt seem to be the primary win-cons.
I fully expect to see more of this deck as we get closer to rotation and G/B based devotion in general getting stronger post.
So, what can we put in our 75 that helps tip this match up in our favor? I'm not certain I see *good* answers in the existing pool.