This is such a good post, and it hits in the nail on the head with the "Tron problem".
I feel that the BBE ban was absolutely fantastic since I now see much less Jund while still being a quite popular deck, and I love that I have a good shot at winning against them when in a topdeck war; it's much better to have a Cryptic Command against a topdecked Olivia than a BBE.
Jund is still very powerful, but much more "fair" now.
But I've also noticed an INSANE amount of Tron, mostly in the new Blue from (which in my opinion is much better and annoying), which could be a problem. Getting Mindslavered turn after turn, while having a turn 3 Wurmcoil beat your face, AND getting your Sowing Salts/Molten rains countered is quite disgusting.
So I'm starting to think that the Seething Song ban may have been a mistake, since it keeps Tron decks in check (although we'd have to see about the blue one with counters...), even if I've always HATED storm and its 5 minute turns.
It will be interesting to see how the metagame evolves ^^
PS: I play WUR Geist of Saint Win mostly
Maybe there's a viable Madness deck somewhere after Eldrich.
I'm not usually into Magic lore but I do find the Innistrad plane fascinating, so I have a question: I had the idea that Emrakul's influence is not unlike that of the Derelict Reaper in Mass Effect 2 (for those who have played that masterpiece), which contaminated the minds of all the tripulaction who lived inside him and make them go crazy. It was a long, insidious process.
But I see that Emrakul also makes people go all tentacly and alien (Emrakul's Evangel), much like the typical parasite tropes of films like The Faculty.
My question is, how does he also physically invade them and make people parasites similar to him, with her same appendages, and not only corrupts their minds?
Remanding your spell to get off counters in Thing is quite unorthodox because almost nobody plays that card, and I just explained it to you because it's a line that you would clearly not get, as you call this deck "tempo" (which means you haven't played it)
And about having every deck being spoon fed to you, that is "la gota que colma el vaso" as we say in Spanish. You basically just stated that every new deck, every new synergy, and every new card is already known and that every new deck is not actually new, but is inmediately invented and solved as soon as it comes out. Meaning that, actually, there cannot be new decks in Modern, because everything has already been said and thought of and done. I think I don't have to say much more, lol. Betrayed by your keyboard, huh?
Rough sketch:
Traverse the Whispers
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Shriekmaw
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Whispers of Emrakul
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
Lacks a bit of removal, but its a start
What lines are obvious? Please do tell me.
This deck is in no way a tempo deck, it doesn't seek to protect a threat and win with it, it's a synergy deck which has an Erayo lock, some silver bullets for specific matchups, Thing against creature decks and to get maximum value with Traverse ans Snaps, incidentally huge goyfs, and unorthodox but EXTREMELY important lines like Gitaxian Probe - hold priority - Remand - Gitaxian Probe - "have drawn 2 cards"- cast any spell- flip Thing in 1 turn.
I've played Delver for as long as I can remember and this plays nothing like it, so don't argue on that front, son. In fact, please don't argue if you are not even going to play the game of Magic: the Gathering and just theorycraft, it never leads anywhere
I'm seriously thinking that you are the one trolling. I'm not talking about percentages, how the hell would that temur deck have a significant percentage? As far as I know, nobody plays it but me and some online buddies, and I don't usually share lists - Sam Blacks was pretty good too, but IMO Tireless Trackers is too slow for Modern. Why are you asserting that "amount of a card played at time X = how good it is"? This fact REALLY puzzles me
I feel like I don't really get you, sorry, you just always talk about data and stats and stuff, but do you actually test, or play? I mean, do you think Mono Blue Devotion in Standard was made by looking at already made decks and magically appeared? How do you think Chalice Eldrazi came to be? Don't you, for one second, imagine that decks are made by trying and playing games? I don't get this approach of just looking at websites, again, how can you know is something is good if nobody is even testing the deck? Do you think Pros just "pigeon chess" and are sometimes lucky?
I've played this deck for almost 3 months now, again, I'm no Pro, mainly cause I can't dedicate that time (I wish), but every time I get home and get some time to play, I do it with that. After more than 100 hours of testing and a whole lot of previous decks I've played over 10+ years of magic, this one is good. Not broken, but good.
I think we should just stop discussing because our mindsets are clearly too different, it's clear you are not the "let's disrupt the meta and try new cards with potential to see if they actually suck or not" type (I still wonder what that pigeon chess strutting is, I really hope you aren't refering to something as crucial in the world and in any kind of job as "innovation"), but that is fine too.
It is by far the best card of the set, just look at the Temur deck. It's pretty simple (and yes, that is the correct deck to put it on).
I think the deck will become more powerful with the Dryad, though.
Um what? Have you tried the deck? And you are telling this to me, the actual creator of Shoal Delver (the version with Mandrils) to make a "worse" delver deck? I ditched Delver Shoal exactly because Delver is not good in modern (I'm a delver fanatic, but Brainstorm and Ponder are important). This deck has nothing to do with Delver, it's got quite long term/grindy plan if necessary, it tries to chain Snapcasters into the field and "create" 3 spells in a row with Traverse (Traverse-Snapcaster-Traverse-Snapcaster-Serum), removing counters from Thing, flipping it and getting value by using those Snaps again.
The other main plan is the deck's actual most powerful play: getting an Erayo lock, which is pretty easy to do on turn 3, but you only fetch her if the coast is clear.
It also plays Mishra's baubles which are unplayable in Delver shells (trust me, I tried) but here they also makes Goyfs much mbetter.
I mean, I think it's clear that you haven't played the deck, otherwise you would have picked up on the interactions- the deck is pretty hard to play.
But, again, what I find amusing is that you tell me, the creator of one of only competitive delver decks left in modern (tier 3, though) together with Grixis, to create a worse delver deck, when this has a completely different gameplan, much grindier and not looking to tempo-ing out the opponent.
PS: I also cannot insist enough on how worse the deck is without Traverse, it is the only card that I always ever want to draw. You assertion of "this deck would be better without Traverse" demonstrates a profound and a bit disconcerting lack of experience or basic knowledge on deckbuilding.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thing in the Ice
1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tarfire
4 Remand
It's really not that difficult to dedicate some hours to testing and see if something is good or not. This deck, for example is very very good, and can win against any of the tier 1 or 2 decks. It's not broken by any means, but it's just a good, synergic, competitive deck. Try it out if you want.
Also, Erayo flip is very easy to do with the deck and not something many decks can beat.
Cheers
It even has "evasion" because it cannot be blocked by goyfs or big dudes profitably, it can only be chumped. It's the Delver we need and the delver we deserve, since the insect is not so good without Brainstorm and Ponder. Definitely has enormous potential.. to be honest Nimble Mongoose has always been my Modern wet dream, but after thinking and seeing that Modern is much more combat oriented, I don't think the old Goose would even be that good. This may be better here!!
As for Unsubstantiate, I'm genuinely curious. Froma design perfective I'd say it's one of the most brilliant tempo-oriented cards in the last 5 years, because it does SO much for that kind of deck. It doesn't mess around, it is a pure, sharply focused card for one purpose and one purpose only, let the efficient dudes in those tempo decks do their job and kill the dude before the card disadvatage even matters, either by gaining time (pure tempo), countering old nemesis for tempo like Abrupt Decay or Supreme Verdict, or bouncing that annoying blocker EOT to get in those last points of damage.
Make no mistake, this card is terrible for typical Control or even Midrange, but for classical Delver decks? A dream come true, IMO. I really don't know if it will be good or not, it may even be unplayable, as has not been a card like this before, but it will surely be interesting.
Docent of Perfection is sadly quite unplayable at 5 mana, but the idea and lore is awesome. At that cost I would much rather have surefire bombs like Keranos or Dark Dwellers
Overall very exciting set, again
For me that's exactly the non-creative personality that I've never really understood. I'll be clear here, I'm not trying to bash you now, but I just saw your post on the Eldrich Moon spoiler - something bout the delirium Dryad maybe fitting in some deck from Chapin and Suicide Zoo. Are you seriously, honestly telling me that you CANNOT thing of a shell from that dryad? Like, I simply refuse to believe it
Even if someone is not a native brewer, Dryad, some Goyfs, some Traverses, some Tarfires, some Mishras. Maybe it could be a new archetype or maybe not, but, again, are you telling me that the first thing that occurs to you is some old deck instead of all the new possibilities?. I have serious trouble understading that kind of thinking, sorry if I come too obnoxious but I'm genuinely surprised that someone can see that card and not instantly be spurred by thoughts.
I'm personally a much, much better brewer than player. By a long shot. As a player I'm very mediocre, I learn every day, but I definitely struggle to 5-0 leagues, even which tier 1 decks. I like improving every day though, that's what's fun. I would also never have time to attend a GP or Pro Tour (I can't even play on paper), much less win it, because of my work and life. I'm sure it would be fun, though!
But brewing, I always have my Notes app open and scribble down every idea I have, 95% never come to fruition, but I do have a very active imagination, and in over 4 years I've scribbled more than 400 decks, 98% tier 3 or worse or not even playable, some of them quite great. Most of them are just exploration of concepts.
And by all this I'm not saying this in the "DUDE THERE A SECRET SUPER DECK THAT NOBODY KNOWS" way, but every deck has a beginning, from unknown to known. It's an established pattern
Imagine if all the players thought like you and said, "I trust in results"... there would never ever be a new deck - exactly because of that (I say this as objectively as possible, I actually work in the Life Sciences field so I have to reason like this) - imagine 1000 Izzets who say, there aren't any results for X deck!. There are only results for Jund, Infect, and Affinity!. Izzet N.1 plays Jund, Izzet N.2 plays Infect, Izzet N.999 plays Affinity. It would be an eternal "who was first, the chicken or the egg", but with no beggining or end, a perfect circle. Of course, people are differrent and because of that, there is innovation.
But every deck comes from something, and it's usually gradual. You would get laughed at playing Amulet Bloom in the beggining, then after many months it even got banned. Same with Boggles, I remember getting infuriated the first time on MTGO where a completely unknown deck stomped me with a random 1/1 hexproof limited garbage.
Tiers in magic, and especially in MTG Salvation, IMO, don't define precisely how "good" a deck is, just how widely played it is. It most cases, it correlates, in some cases, they are underepresented, be it because people usually follow what is considered the best (wise choice) or simply because it's not really good in the meta. An unrelated example for me - RUG Delver - the deck is not tier 1 by no means, but it's not tier 3+ either, it just has very bad matchups against Jund and most removal-heavy midrange decks (Modern in a nutshell). As a deck, it can easily stomp Combo and most Control.
What I mean by all this is that you can never truly say that X card is unplayable, the end, it will be until it gradually increases it's share of metagame and becomes, suprise, Tier X. I don't know if Traverse will ever be Tier 1, but it definitely has the potential- I never, ever, "do not want to draw it", it's always insane except in the presence of a Rest in Peace, and I've been playing that deck for 2 months now (around 100 hours I'd say) so I so have quite a bit of testing to support my views. That's the mark of a good card.
Finally, it's different from Zenith, you cannot ramp with it, but you can get non-green cards like Snapcaster, which makes it a card for a completely different deck than the typical Hatebears toolbox. It can also be used to find creatures to combo, and even utility lands like Lighthouse, to put an example.
Hmmmm.
For me that's exactly the non-creative personality that I've never really understood. I'll be clear here, I'm not trying to bash you now, but I just saw your post on the Eldrich Moon spoiler - something bout the delirium Dryad maybe fitting in some deck from Chapin and Suicide Zoo. Are you seriously, honestly telling me that you CANNOT thing of a shell from that dryad? Like, I simply refuse to believe it
Even if someone is not a native brewer, Dryad, some Goyfs, some Traverses, some Tarfires, some Mishras. Maybe it could be a new archetype or maybe not, but, again, are you telling me that the first thing that occurs to you is some old deck instead of all the new possibilities?. I have serious trouble understading that kind of thinking, sorry if I come too obnoxious but I'm genuinely surprised that someone can see that card and not instantly be spurred by thoughts.
I'm personally a much, much better brewer than player. By a long shot. As a player I'm very mediocre, I learn every day, but I definitely struggle to 5-0 leagues, even which tier 1 decks. I like improving every day though, that's what's fun. I would also never have time to attend a GP or Pro Tour (I can't even play on paper), much less win it, because of my work and life. I'm sure it would be fun, though!
But brewing, I always have my Notes app open and scribble down every idea I have, 95% never come to fruition, but I do have a very active imagination, and in over 4 years I've scribbled more than 400 decks, 98% tier or worse or not even playable, some of them quite great. Most of them are just exploration of concepts.
And by all this I'm not saying this in the "DUDE THERE A SECRET SUPER DECK THAT NOBODY KNOWS" way, but every deck has a beginning, from unknown to known. It's an established pattern
Imagine if all the players thought like you and said, "I trust in results"... there would never ever be a new deck - exactly because of that (I say this as objectively as possible, I actually work in the Life Sciences field so I have to reason like this) - imagine 1000 Izzets who say, there aren't any results for X deck!. There are only results for Jund, Infect, and Affinity!. Izzet N.1 plays Jund, Izzet N.2 plays Infect, Izzet N.999 plays Affinity. It would be an eternal who was first, the chicken or the egg, but with no beggining or end, a perfect circle. Of course, people are differrent and because of that, there is innovation.
But every deck comes from something, and it's usually gradual. You would get laughed at playing Amulet Bloom in the beggining, then after many months it even got banned. Same with Boggles, I remember getting infuriated the first time on MTGO where a completely unknown deck stomped me with a random 1/1 hexproof limited garbage.
Tiers in magic, and especially in MTG Salvation, IMO, don't define precisely how "good" a deck is, just how widely played it is. It most cases, it correlates, in some cases, they are underepresented, be it because people usually follow what is considered the best (wise choice) or simply because it's not really good in the meta. An unrelated example for me - RUG Delver - the deck is not tier 1 by no means, but it's not tier 3+ either, it just has very bad matchups against Jund and most removal-heavy midrange decks (Modern in a nutshell). As a deck, it can easily stomp Combo and most Control.
What I mean by all this is that you can never truly say that X card is unplayable, the end, it will be until it gradually increases it's share of metagame and becomes, suprise, Tier X. I don't know if Traverse will ever be Tier 1, but it definitely has the potential- I never, ever, "do not want to draw it", it's always insane except in the presence of a Rest in Peace, and I've been playing that deck for 2 months now (around 100 hours I'd say) so I so have quite a bit of testing to support my views. That's the mark of a good card.
Finally, it's different from Zenith, you cannot ramp with it, but you can get non-green cards like Snapcaster, which makes it a card for a completely different deck than the typical Hatebears toolbox. It can also be used to find creatures to combo, or even utility la
Traverse the Ulvenwald is ridiculously good, by far the best card of the set and not even close. It needs a pretty dedicated shell, tho. Also, chaining Snaps can outvalue pretty much any midrange deck.
I would advise people to buy them btw, the spike is inevitable and they are only like 1 Tix ;)ç
As for Thing, I've found it can make creature mathcups a bye and is s'ecially good against Bogles, but it also needs a very dedicated shell, possibly even with Manamorphoses. Very fun card too
I'm not saying it's playable, because 5 mana and a whole lot of different cards is quite difficult to achieve even in very focused decks, but the Mindslaver effect is absolutely backbreaking and well worth the effort, plus it provides inevitability. I think this card at 11 mana could actually have been amazingly good, but at least it also indicates that they are really going for the Delirium mechanic, so we may get many more awesome cards for that kind of deck
I always find it interesting that some people simply can't let things go or admit they were wrong, even it it makes them look completely ridiculous.
Every deck can be beaten. Every-single-deck. Even Old Afinity with Skullclamp and artifact lands, even Grandeur-Donation in its time, even Cawblade, even decks with 4 Black Lotuses and 4 Ancestral in them. Magic has an element of luck in it, and you will inevitably lose some games because of it, because you won't draw lands, or the correct spells, etc. That's what makes it fun.
But aberrations like Eldrazi (and I can assess that it IS by far the most broken deck Modern has seen since the in initial bannings, and I've been playing since almost the beginning) are not a question of it they can be beaten or not. They will dominate and destroy the format swiftly, and people wil "adapt" by playing decks specifically made to destroy them and maindeck ridiculous cards to beat them, just because of them (see Painter's Servant).
It's not a question of thinking outside the box, and in fact as an avid brewer which absolutely loves to create new competitive decks (Traverse is my best one yet), it offends me A LOT that you would even think playing terrible cards and warping absolutely everything in the game just to beat a single deck is thinking outside the box. Do not ever say that again if you don't want to embarass yourself.
In a nutshell, Eldrazi Winter was the worst period I've seen in Modern, but fortunately it seems like the calm comes after the storm, and I'm thoroughly enjoying this new Modern, extremely balanced, extremely varied and overall extremely fun to play.
Just, on last time, don't ever bring up again how Eldrazi made you think outisde the box, It's just counterproducive for your reputation, online persona or however you want to call it. Cheers.
I remember having it as a target for my Traverse the Ulvenwald deck, which in theory seemed awesome. I would fetch it for Nahiri Jeskai, it would inmediately get killed for no value. I would fetch it against Jund, it would get Kolaghan Kommanded for negative value. Against hatebears, I would never bring it since I want to sweep the board with Anger. Against Affinity and Elves, the same. Against Lantern, it only stops mill effects which they have a ton of different and redundant ones, but does nothing against Lantern of Insight or Bridge. Against Tron, it can be good sometimes, it's the only deck, but they can still Pyroclasm it or kill it with Karn/Ugin if you don't name the correct one.
Also, Thalia has no abilities that I know of