What you have to understand, and I'm sure you already know. But a lot of people don't MB artifact hate G1. G2, at least for me, I play mainly my lands and go for a slower route. Usually my opponents go all-in on hate and they slow down a little too waiting for me to play my posts only to be met with lands and foretolds.
My issue is that black is still around and with it come INquistions, thoughtsiezes, lilys and so on. Lots of hand distrubtion making the ED version a bit more fragile.
But as you said, the list I commented on has the same issues.
Do you ever find yourself overburden with too many lands/posts when you draw/mulligan? That is one thing I've been mulling over after reading your opinion and looking over your list.
That said, I tried the old March of the Machines combo, but found it too fragile. So a +2/+2 buff may help them survive longer and for later. But the problem I ran into, was they're still artifacts and being hit with grudge, decay, or reverly really hurts.
If you keep the posts, then like I said your chosen planeswalkers feel like a good fit.
I feel like adding a Blood Moon in replace of your Alpine just strenghten your overall matches against every deck out there. remember, ED only needs 2 RR to go off, so you can easily beat a T3 Tron on T2. And then T3 play moon and lock them out after that, instead of gambling you can get around it with a slower balance and a quicker moon.
And if you remove your custom setup package, I would just fit more dig/counter spells in the main board. You don't have a very strong way of getting/finding a Balance to your hand and it looks like you just pray you hit them asap. Something like Opt is really good, your remand is solid, maybe Izzet Charm and/or Serum Visions to help accerlate this game plan. You can even run the tried and true card of Simian Spirit Guide which makes these nut hands way more pheasible and more common.
Sideboard, sadly is all you, based on your meta. I run
This is to battle the aggro decks that swarm my meta, Tron, Boggles, Humans, Harden Scales Affinity and Dredge. I don't look to win against any control deck and their varients because they can just win by holding all their counterspells every turn. But I would reccommend a few cards off this list. Mainly Anger of the Gods still a very strong and cheap card against almost any aggro deck making you less reliant on popping off a Balance T1-T3. Wear // Tear, to help get rid of early Stony Silence, Aether Vial, or Ethereal Armor that hit early. Based on your current list, if the opponent hits you with an early anti-artifact spell you rely on your mana base making for future balances very very tricky. And then maybe someway to get rid of a graveyard, Ravenous Trap really helps because Dredge just pours it on and its super easy to cast for 0.
That said, this is all for my cascade version. There are better cards than what I run simple because of mana cost.
I like your current cascade package, that seems solid.
I'm not sure 12 posts is the right number. Honestly I feel like 8-9 is best so artifact hate isn't a complete blowout. Also, 12 posts and 19 lands seems a bit much. Been so long though I forgot how many lands I need. I wanted to keep the artifact count somewhat high since they remove our lands, work with Tezz, and generally play well for the deck.
I have Remand in there for card draw and stall. The planeswalker package I carefully considered for a few reasons.
Karn - he's good against BUG artifacts/affinity/etc, also if you are able to tutor a Liquimetal Coating after a Balance it will ensure the opponent will never get to have more than 1 land, being able to tutor for a Pithing Needle, Bridge, or Cage helps specific matchups
Oko - the creature interactions, and Food tokens can be lifegain for matchups where a few life points is the difference between a win and a loss.
Tezzeret - ultimate is lifegain, also turns posts into blockers or potential beaters, typically it's a 'must counter' kind of card too
Ajani - lifegain, locks down permanents, removes Elk creatures from Oko if they're both out and ultimate helps make sure they don't rebuild after a Balance
I considered a great deal more walkers but had to keep the objective in mind. Balance away the board, then dominate with walkers. I feel like many opponents are going to concede if you Balance the board clean and then play a walker the next turn. If you have 2 walkers out after a Balance I feel like 90% of opponents are going to concede once the second one drops. Part of my thought process was thinking about how difficult it would be for an opponent after having any 2 of them on the board at once.
So I'm a bit confused, are you going for a ED deck or a cascade deck. Because the posts aren't needed in the ED version and will slow you down immensely. I would say ditch the posts and add more dig/scry/reaction cards tbh. With only 4 remand, your ability to really interact with the opponent is awful, sure you can restore balance up to 6 times, but I don't think its needed that much. Walkers seem fine, again without the posts Tezzert becomes absolutely useless imo and along the same vein with Karn as well. You could run those two if you focused more on the post strat, but my issue is posts are so fragile anyways, and being 5/5s or 4/4s without any inherent protection, trample, or combat ability you're one board wipe away from losing. Even if they have Stoney silence, their own Karn out you're doomed to play them.
That said, I would replace Alpine Moon with Blood Moon for a straight upgrade
remove liquid metal coating, and remove ensaring bridge.
I would focus on one version or the other, I can help you once you figure out what exactly you want from this deck.
I think it depends on what the overall stragy is. I've never had an issue where I ran out of cards. Unless your opponent forces you to discard, I can't see it.
Humans in my play group was always the bane. Meddling mage T2 calling Balance usually locked me out depending if I had Detention Sphere out.
I think the big problem keep having, is that they want Balance to have good-great matchups against any deck. You can do that, but at the cost of a coherent goal. I've tuned my deck to fight Aggro primarily, with some minor resistance against control. My best matchups were Boggles, Tron, Affinity, and the occasional humans barring I could draw well.
No attack taken my friend, this is what this forum is here for. Polite converstation.
That said, I agree with your analysis of win vs win-more for card situations. Like Vikingtrader, I've played a majority of this deck as my post/cascade version with limited/no play time to the ED varients.
I've found, that Jund, Tron, and Control ( I haven't faced Oko yet) that it requires just proper planning. There are windows of opportunity to go off on them, but the big issue is not that they're quicker, its that they can rebuild in an instant. Doesn't matter how much we balance, they can always rebuild. I do think that our biggest issue isn't that we can't race them, its possible with or without the nut hand. But our biggest issue is the midrange/value decks. Control doesn't care if we wipe their hand, board, or lands. But if they can land Oko, Jace, someone then their plan is secured. I've lost many a game to decks simple because I can't outvalue them. Restore Balance isn't the powerhouse it use to be. Wizards as made new card types, stronger abilites, an stickier cards. Back when Balance first came out, there wasn't anything known as planeswalkers.
If we keep trying to evolve Restore Balance, I feel that is our hinderance. We can't out control a pure control deck, we can't really outpace aggro, and we really can't out value our opponent. Not saying we haven't done work on finding a new shell for the deck to take on, but we turn into a control shell trying to peek Restore Balance out there when we may be better off with a new route. I've noticed a lot of lists are adding the rest of the suspend cards, even the new ones. Anstral Visions, Footfalls, sometimes even Wheel.
I'm not sure what direction we could take the deck, that's one of the beauties of it, that that there isn't some sort of end all be all list like other decks. We're close to one though. Just a matter of time.
So I'm toying with the idea of the new card Ashiok's Erasure. I use to toy around with Nevermore in my older lists, but ulitmately dropped it because a T3 negate card is/was slightly slow. But for 1 more U you gain Flash and an exile ability to boot. Sure I couldn't stop the person fromn resolving their counter spell, but I can guareent you won't get another one off, and its a surprise factor off of As Foretold.
Any ideas? This would be problably only be a good fit for the cascade version since ED would/will have counter spells or other viable responses.
Good catch, I thought my ordering was a little off, looks like just one step was reversed!
So it depends on what you want to do. With the cascade version you don't need as my search/draw cards since your combo is effective either in your hand or deck, whereas ED is more reliant on hand.
If you're looking to cram in as many bases as possible, I'd say you should try the ED version. Its far more flexible, but requires a bit more expertise to use since the core of the deck shifts slightly more towards a control-ly combo deck more than a combo deck.
So I was just looking at the top metagame decks of Modern as of right now (1/1/20) and I wanted to point out some of the advantages that some of the other top decks have over us right now that need to be acknowledged. No matter which version you play, I think we need to discuss answers to some of these cards/decks.
First we have Eldrazi Tron showing up 8.29% of the time. They're packing 4x Chalice of the Void, 4x Karn, the Great Creator, 4x Thought-knot Seer, and 2x Warping Wail. Ouch; before sideboard even. Imprisoned in the Moon is a decent answer to this deck but honestly I'm not sure if it's enough. I'm thinking countermagic might be a good option here. If we can't Balance away their lands we need a good backup plan imo.
Third, Bant Snow Control showing up 4.08%. This one isn't quite as bad with 3x Spell Queller, 3x Oko, Thief of Crowns, 3x Teferi, Time Raveler, 2x Force of Negation, and 2x Mystical Dispute. They also have 3x Damping Sphere in the side. The big one here is Teferi. With him on the field we won't ever get to Balance. They can also protect it with Dispute.
These 3 top decks represent about 20% of the competitive meta. Some of the other decks showing up are 4 color Death's Shadow, Amulet Titan, Infect, Burn, Dredge, Humans, and Jund. Each of them has little advantages against us except for Amulet Titan.
My thoughts are having a basic Balance shell while being able to include really good cards, which will make us a bit more competitive if the Balance plan gets hated on. I think planeswalkers are a solid option as they provide a lot of value post-Balance and most of them are decent wincons on their own. A careful selection of the right colors and abilities should be discussed. We want walkers that provide extreme value in keeping our board state in control, and also act as wincons.
For countermagic, I think around 7-8 spots sounds ideal. We want to be able to keep key threats off the board. We are able to run the same package of either Mystical Dispute or Metallic Rebuke. I also like Remand as it replaces itself. Cryptic Command seems legit but at 4 CMC and UUU to boot I think it should be left out myself.
The more I look at what's going on in the meta, I think a borderpost version that runs As Foretold and Electrodominance is going to be the best option. It gives it upsides of being able to play posts (keep land count low without garg) and also contributes to Mox Opal. In addition, that would give us more opportunity to experiment with cheap spells that do a lot of work like Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, countermagic, etc.
What do you guys think? How do we handle some of the nasty cards in the meta like Chalice, Karn, Teferi, Spell Queller etc?
Myself I want a good amount of interaction, the balance shell, and a fair amount of threats to keep up. The problem is our deck only has so much room to work with!
My only issue is it seems you're trying too much to cover all your bases. A lot of this can be put into the SB, or choose which decks in your local game store are the most popular and plan for this. The more you try to fit in the more muddle and all over the place the deck will be. Focus on the core of the deck and plan outward from there.
To answer your question on how to deal with Chalice, Karn, Teferi, Queller. You've already answered those questions. Counter spells, Imprision, Rift Bolt, etc. But again, focus on what cards crop up the most. I wouldn't focus on beating POD if Eldrazi Tron was the most popular deck in my area. I would beat themn by doubling down on Restore Balance to keep them off tron, pack counter spells for their few counters, and play aggresive. If POD was most popular, I would work a more slow controlled game focused more on Imprisons and working to get 1 balance off more than 4 as opposed to Tron.
first you declare if it resolves, if it does, then you sac your lands in response and pass priority. Remember, they've already chose that Balanced resolved. They cannot interact with it. They can respond the sacing of lands, or the casting of Gargadon. But they can't back up and say "No wait a minute, I don't want balance to resolve" because if they did you would be allowed to take back the saccing of your lands.
If I recall correctly, and this is the first time I've thought about it it goes like this
P1: I cast Restore Balance, does it resolve (passing priority to 2nd player)
P2: I will let is resolve
P1: Okay, in response to resolving, I sac X lands to GG, any response
P2: (Either fetch to keep 1 land post resolution, dig spell, etc)
Restore Balance finishes resolving, checks all the lands, hands, and creatures, GG comes off the stack afterwards, anything the opponent does resolve.
The one problem I've had with ED, and maybe you can tell me how your find it. is that you need both spells in your hand. Whereas cascade version you just need a cascade spell. I've felt that ED is searching hard to assembling and hoping you can before turn 5.
The one thing I think people forget, is that even with a new deck with electrodomiance, or even the existing shell we are still a bit of a fringe deck. Our combo, while strong, is very easy to distrupt either we focus on Electro and build around to protect the combo, but doing that makes our combo weaker and harder to get since we aren't running posts, we can't instantly go off unless we have both cards in our hands , and even then a simple remand sets us back many turns. Sure we can suspend, but that is a long 6 turns. Even with the post version, with cascade at instant speed we aren't too reliant on our hand so discard is less effective than it would be in the electro version. but that means we can't pack the response cards we see in the Electro lists. We also fold a lot more since we're reliant on cascade and the more balances we have in hand, the worse off we are.
That isn't to say both lists don't have work arounds, packing As Foretolds helps get them out our hands, but that's a very hot target the opponent will focus down.
I don't think there isn't any "bad" cards for this deck. Because we don't have an official list, nor do both versions have any greater edge than the other, I think if some people have found success with certain cards, they should show us their match ups, their experience, and their opinion why it is in over other cards with the same effect/similar effect. Are there bad cards? Absolutely. But it depends on the level of competivness you're playing at. I'm sure there are changes I can make to my deck, but I only play my friends or my LGS once a year. So it doesn't need an overhaul unless I take to a tournament.
I've found the cascade version to be a bit more consistant that Electro. Mainly for the reasons you've listed.
One way I've played around artifact hate, is to never play them in G2. I usually lean into a more heavy hand of lands/fetches for slower but less set back turns, not if I can ever afford 4 Prismatic Vista we can easily boost our mana base against such matchups since we'll be able to (or at least myself) play our basics way faster to pump out the posts way faster too.
So the only thing I found, when I played the very early version of the deck, The one back on page 1. I found being so hyper aggresive leaves you so vulnerable to everything else. The reason, as mentioned by vikingtraders, is that other combo decks can still protect/interact with the opponent. Restore balance only interacts with Restore balance. I like the hyper style you're going for, but I don't know if that is a viable option these days. Often times 1 balance isn't enough to seal games. Boggles, Affinity, Harden Scales (green affinity), and even Tron can rebound so quickly against us that wiping them constantly is our only way. But if you've blown through your gargadons, Brains, and even balances what else do you do.
Again, this is all dependant on your meta and your play style.
@SunTzu --
So is the whole point of your deck ideas to run artifacts to purely feed Gargadon? How do you respond to threats or interact. Again, Brain in a Jar doesn't work with its ability UNLESS you have a way to sac it reliably. With only 4 Gargadons as your sac outlet you run that risk you won't be able to use it and even then it's a once time effect that is a less than okay parlor trick.
My issue is that black is still around and with it come INquistions, thoughtsiezes, lilys and so on. Lots of hand distrubtion making the ED version a bit more fragile.
But as you said, the list I commented on has the same issues.
That said, I tried the old March of the Machines combo, but found it too fragile. So a +2/+2 buff may help them survive longer and for later. But the problem I ran into, was they're still artifacts and being hit with grudge, decay, or reverly really hurts.
If you keep the posts, then like I said your chosen planeswalkers feel like a good fit.
I feel like adding a Blood Moon in replace of your Alpine just strenghten your overall matches against every deck out there. remember, ED only needs 2 RR to go off, so you can easily beat a T3 Tron on T2. And then T3 play moon and lock them out after that, instead of gambling you can get around it with a slower balance and a quicker moon.
And if you remove your custom setup package, I would just fit more dig/counter spells in the main board. You don't have a very strong way of getting/finding a Balance to your hand and it looks like you just pray you hit them asap. Something like Opt is really good, your remand is solid, maybe Izzet Charm and/or Serum Visions to help accerlate this game plan. You can even run the tried and true card of Simian Spirit Guide which makes these nut hands way more pheasible and more common.
Sideboard, sadly is all you, based on your meta. I run
This is to battle the aggro decks that swarm my meta, Tron, Boggles, Humans, Harden Scales Affinity and Dredge. I don't look to win against any control deck and their varients because they can just win by holding all their counterspells every turn. But I would reccommend a few cards off this list. Mainly Anger of the Gods still a very strong and cheap card against almost any aggro deck making you less reliant on popping off a Balance T1-T3. Wear // Tear, to help get rid of early Stony Silence, Aether Vial, or Ethereal Armor that hit early. Based on your current list, if the opponent hits you with an early anti-artifact spell you rely on your mana base making for future balances very very tricky. And then maybe someway to get rid of a graveyard, Ravenous Trap really helps because Dredge just pours it on and its super easy to cast for 0.
That said, this is all for my cascade version. There are better cards than what I run simple because of mana cost.
I like your current cascade package, that seems solid.
So I'm a bit confused, are you going for a ED deck or a cascade deck. Because the posts aren't needed in the ED version and will slow you down immensely. I would say ditch the posts and add more dig/scry/reaction cards tbh. With only 4 remand, your ability to really interact with the opponent is awful, sure you can restore balance up to 6 times, but I don't think its needed that much. Walkers seem fine, again without the posts Tezzert becomes absolutely useless imo and along the same vein with Karn as well. You could run those two if you focused more on the post strat, but my issue is posts are so fragile anyways, and being 5/5s or 4/4s without any inherent protection, trample, or combat ability you're one board wipe away from losing. Even if they have Stoney silence, their own Karn out you're doomed to play them.
That said, I would replace Alpine Moon with Blood Moon for a straight upgrade
remove liquid metal coating, and remove ensaring bridge.
I would focus on one version or the other, I can help you once you figure out what exactly you want from this deck.
PS, sorry for being so harsh
I think the big problem keep having, is that they want Balance to have good-great matchups against any deck. You can do that, but at the cost of a coherent goal. I've tuned my deck to fight Aggro primarily, with some minor resistance against control. My best matchups were Boggles, Tron, Affinity, and the occasional humans barring I could draw well.
That said, I agree with your analysis of win vs win-more for card situations. Like Vikingtrader, I've played a majority of this deck as my post/cascade version with limited/no play time to the ED varients.
I've found, that Jund, Tron, and Control ( I haven't faced Oko yet) that it requires just proper planning. There are windows of opportunity to go off on them, but the big issue is not that they're quicker, its that they can rebuild in an instant. Doesn't matter how much we balance, they can always rebuild. I do think that our biggest issue isn't that we can't race them, its possible with or without the nut hand. But our biggest issue is the midrange/value decks. Control doesn't care if we wipe their hand, board, or lands. But if they can land Oko, Jace, someone then their plan is secured. I've lost many a game to decks simple because I can't outvalue them. Restore Balance isn't the powerhouse it use to be. Wizards as made new card types, stronger abilites, an stickier cards. Back when Balance first came out, there wasn't anything known as planeswalkers.
If we keep trying to evolve Restore Balance, I feel that is our hinderance. We can't out control a pure control deck, we can't really outpace aggro, and we really can't out value our opponent. Not saying we haven't done work on finding a new shell for the deck to take on, but we turn into a control shell trying to peek Restore Balance out there when we may be better off with a new route. I've noticed a lot of lists are adding the rest of the suspend cards, even the new ones. Anstral Visions, Footfalls, sometimes even Wheel.
I'm not sure what direction we could take the deck, that's one of the beauties of it, that that there isn't some sort of end all be all list like other decks. We're close to one though. Just a matter of time.
Any ideas? This would be problably only be a good fit for the cascade version since ED would/will have counter spells or other viable responses.
So it depends on what you want to do. With the cascade version you don't need as my search/draw cards since your combo is effective either in your hand or deck, whereas ED is more reliant on hand.
If you're looking to cram in as many bases as possible, I'd say you should try the ED version. Its far more flexible, but requires a bit more expertise to use since the core of the deck shifts slightly more towards a control-ly combo deck more than a combo deck.
My only issue is it seems you're trying too much to cover all your bases. A lot of this can be put into the SB, or choose which decks in your local game store are the most popular and plan for this. The more you try to fit in the more muddle and all over the place the deck will be. Focus on the core of the deck and plan outward from there.
To answer your question on how to deal with Chalice, Karn, Teferi, Queller. You've already answered those questions. Counter spells, Imprision, Rift Bolt, etc. But again, focus on what cards crop up the most. I wouldn't focus on beating POD if Eldrazi Tron was the most popular deck in my area. I would beat themn by doubling down on Restore Balance to keep them off tron, pack counter spells for their few counters, and play aggresive. If POD was most popular, I would work a more slow controlled game focused more on Imprisons and working to get 1 balance off more than 4 as opposed to Tron.
first you declare if it resolves, if it does, then you sac your lands in response and pass priority. Remember, they've already chose that Balanced resolved. They cannot interact with it. They can respond the sacing of lands, or the casting of Gargadon. But they can't back up and say "No wait a minute, I don't want balance to resolve" because if they did you would be allowed to take back the saccing of your lands.
If I recall correctly, and this is the first time I've thought about it it goes like this
P1: I cast Restore Balance, does it resolve (passing priority to 2nd player)
P2: I will let is resolve
P1: Okay, in response to resolving, I sac X lands to GG, any response
P2: (Either fetch to keep 1 land post resolution, dig spell, etc)
Restore Balance finishes resolving, checks all the lands, hands, and creatures, GG comes off the stack afterwards, anything the opponent does resolve.
The one problem I've had with ED, and maybe you can tell me how your find it. is that you need both spells in your hand. Whereas cascade version you just need a cascade spell. I've felt that ED is searching hard to assembling and hoping you can before turn 5.
That isn't to say both lists don't have work arounds, packing As Foretolds helps get them out our hands, but that's a very hot target the opponent will focus down.
I don't think there isn't any "bad" cards for this deck. Because we don't have an official list, nor do both versions have any greater edge than the other, I think if some people have found success with certain cards, they should show us their match ups, their experience, and their opinion why it is in over other cards with the same effect/similar effect. Are there bad cards? Absolutely. But it depends on the level of competivness you're playing at. I'm sure there are changes I can make to my deck, but I only play my friends or my LGS once a year. So it doesn't need an overhaul unless I take to a tournament.
One way I've played around artifact hate, is to never play them in G2. I usually lean into a more heavy hand of lands/fetches for slower but less set back turns, not if I can ever afford 4 Prismatic Vista we can easily boost our mana base against such matchups since we'll be able to (or at least myself) play our basics way faster to pump out the posts way faster too.
So the only thing I found, when I played the very early version of the deck, The one back on page 1. I found being so hyper aggresive leaves you so vulnerable to everything else. The reason, as mentioned by vikingtraders, is that other combo decks can still protect/interact with the opponent. Restore balance only interacts with Restore balance. I like the hyper style you're going for, but I don't know if that is a viable option these days. Often times 1 balance isn't enough to seal games. Boggles, Affinity, Harden Scales (green affinity), and even Tron can rebound so quickly against us that wiping them constantly is our only way. But if you've blown through your gargadons, Brains, and even balances what else do you do.
Again, this is all dependant on your meta and your play style.
So is the whole point of your deck ideas to run artifacts to purely feed Gargadon? How do you respond to threats or interact. Again, Brain in a Jar doesn't work with its ability UNLESS you have a way to sac it reliably. With only 4 Gargadons as your sac outlet you run that risk you won't be able to use it and even then it's a once time effect that is a less than okay parlor trick.