He's not going to win games, but he's a fine card I think. My only problem is that, as a green creature and a mythic, he should have been a 4/4. Given his ability though, that *might* have been overpowered.
Evolve and Bloodrush have way bigger implications for standard than the others (waiting to see how far they push cipher so I'm reserving judgement) than most of the abilities from This set AND last set.
Poor, lonely Cipher.
I sincerely hope Dimir gets something better than what it has so far. Is Undercity Plague a powerful effect? Sure, but six mana and all the removal we have, its not looking good at all.
CORRbentorgy, there is a reason that in the standard forum there is a section called established decks. They are proven to work, and have strong tournament records. Not your local fnm, but hundreds and hundreds of people at a ptq or gpt or scg open, etc. There are good cards because they are better than any other card in that same slot. its the same reasoning why you can have a vanilla 2/2 for 2 and a vanilla 2/3 for 2. the second is strictly better. When a card is strictly worse then another card, it isnt as good and therefore *bad* in terms of competitive playability
I can concede to this; because its true. Dissipate is almost always better than Cancel, and I say "almost" because I'm sure there are decks out there where someone wants a countered spell in their opponent's graveyard.
But the problem I'm having here is that Gyre isn't *just* a mana maker, she's (I'm assuming its a she) potentially a lot more. From a beefy attacker to something makes more mana than a playset of "traditional" rampers. Do to this, its not a clear case of something being strictly better or not.
In a deck dedicated to a certain strategy, this one probably revolving around +1/+1 counters, I feel that Gyre could do fairly well, and not just against casual Chimney Imp decks.
and how many tournaments did you win with this deck? good cards for me are cards which fit into decks which can win tournaments... not cards which can work in some casual fnm or kitchentable deck..
if i say a card is bad, i dont mean its an unplayable vanilla bear. but it was not seen in any competetive deck, cause its just not good enough.
and rapic hybridization is at least better than the elf, but i dont think that it will see much constructed play... i mean pongyfy didnt see much play too... so i beliee that this wont see much play.
Several, thank you. Granted, most of them were local, but I can assure you that there a plenty of Spikes like you that have fallen to it. I also have a URG deck that was built purely as a Tournament deck, but it makes my Johnny heart weep because it is.
But really, it sounds to me that "Good cards for Wrathberry" are cards that Spikes have run into the ground, and there's nothing else worth looking at. Like you're the de facto authority on what makes a "Good deck," and cards that aren't actually bad get ripped a part because of that.
Even the most over-used decks in history still lose, because every deck runs into the same potential problems as another; bad hand, bad draw, etc.
A combo of Strangle Root Geist and Rapid Hybridization alone creates a 3/2 and a 3/3 in an early turn. If you have Cloudfin Raptor and Gyre on the field at the same time, things get even better.
Its about being progressive. Can you get blown away by Verdict? Sure. Bonefire? Yes. But any deck can, so its not at all fair or objective to say that certain decks/cards are bad because they fall to things that nearly every other on can.
EDIT: And this has gone on FAR too long, so I'm ending the discussion here. Case and point; its not a bad card, and it *could* find a place in certain decks, even in Standard. Rune Snag is an amazing counterspell, but Remand sees more play in Modern because... Its popular.
and again: dont name other unplayable cards, just to make another bad card playable....
you dont build your deck around bad cards to make them at least not terrible anymore...
the cards which are awesome on their own are the ones you build your deck around... at least if you want to build a serious deck.
The fact that you think Hunger is a "bad card" doesn't mean it is; it means that's your opinion. I run a Golgari deck surrounded by Corpsejack counters, and Hunger is splendid. Its the same here; I suppose you also believe that Rapid Hybridization is a "bad" card?
What is this very quickly? turn 4? only usable on turn 5? and you've played 3 creatures so you can ramp to 7 on turn 5???
so on turn three it can now produce as much mana as an elf, but.. you cant use it, because you already played a creature and tapped your lands..
come on.. think. Think about what it actually does.
Or turn three, I listed a scenario pages back, and that's only one, one where it produced five times the amount of mana an Elf can.
And... You can use it? I don't understand; its a normal tap ability; so even if you're tapped out you can still use Gyre to generate mana.
And I am thinking, which is why I'm arguing I guess. Although I seem to be doing so for no reason. I'm a Johnny kind of player, and I see an easily usable card with the right other cards in the same deck. I never once said it was tournament material, but Gyre's not a "OMG waste of cardboard."
Except most every standard deck right now plays either Bonfire or Wraths, and you have to play more creatures to even ramp... into more creatures?
Those spells would hurt anyone though, wouldn't they? I'm just sick of seeing "Bad card is bad because I say so" comments, when the person obviously hasn't tried theory-crafting with it.
And I suppose I haven't been updated on what decks are popular now; last I checked things like Sever the Bloodline were popular. So I concede there could be meta-specific things I'm not seeing.
that doesnt change the fact that the only reason you would play a ramp creature is, to ramp into something bigger next turn. means: you play him on turn 2 and want to use him to play a 4cmc creature on turn 3 then.
but you cant do this with this guy, which makes him bad. and do you really think that he will stick that long, that he gets 6/7 and produces 5 mana in the current removal heavy meta?
he is a 1/2 who does nothing before you play another creature.. which makes him just terrible.
just think about it..... on turn 3 he is a 2/3 who produces 1 mana... sorry but i cant call this good...
Llanowar Elf stays a 1/1, unless we're in Elf Tribal or with things like Gaea's Anthem, whereas Gyre can grow to be the creature that wins the game. It also begins producing more mana than the Elf, Birds, or Pilgrim by its second evolve; which in Simic, or URG, would be very quickly. So he has the potential to be far more versatile than any of them.
And if your opponent kills it removal? They wasted mana and a card on something that only cost two mana. Granted, pulling Gyre on turn four or five will be frustrating, but personally I feel the same with any of the other "Good" mana rampers as well.
You can't throw it in any deck hoping that it will stick, it needs to be included with thought, but that's hardly a bad thing.
And it doesn't *have* to be a 2/3 on turn three, but even if it is, it still produces as much mana as an Elf would.
You also need to consider that its not the only card in the deck, and there are many things we have in Standard alone to make it better; Cloudshift, Undying, Hunger of the Howlpack, Increasing Savagery, etc.
EDIT: In the end, I think Gyre's a fine card because it can easily become a far stronger presence than even three Elves; its not *just* a ramp card, it can beat your opponent's face as well.
sorry guys but everyone who thinks this elf is anywhere near good has no idea..
reasons:
1. you cant play him on turn 2 and ramp into a 4cmc creature in turn 3, because you need another creature which must be stronger than him, before you can produce any mana with him.
2. manadorks for 2 mana, even if they could produce mana directly, never saw much play...
this elf is just bad in constructed and will never see any play in serious decks. a ramper who can only ramp if you play a bigger creature after him? terrible...
I think someone is forgetting what kind of decks Gyre will be seen in. Hint: ones with a lot of creatures, where +1/+1 counters will be raining from the sky. Not only will she get a lot bigger, it will produce more mana than usual because of it.
Zameck Guildmage even allows everyone to enter with additional counters, so there's that.
Others might not have seen play, but they didn't have evolve, and as a 1/2, Gyre will evolve easily and often; another 1/2 would trigger it.
Its not breathtaking, but you couldn't (objectively) begin to call it "terrible."
I don't necessarily think it is a horrible creature. It probably isn't constructed worthy, but I needed to quote the above as one of the biggest instances of Christmasland I've seen in a while.
I said the play I listed required a lucky hand, because it does, but its not as ridiculous as say; a first turn win with Dark Depths after a Dark Ritual, Vampire Hexmage, Sol Ring, lotus petal, and Lightning Greeves.
The example I gave is easily feasible, and even in later turns, its not a bad one. I'm not trying to say that Gyre is constructed gold, but she's better than I think many people on this thread first suspected.
By the time you can actually tap Gyre (Provided your draws are working with you) she's easily worth the two mana you spent on her. An example scenario:
T2: Gyre.
T3: Land, play Strangleroot Geist, Gyre evolves. Kill off Geist and as its undying resolves, Gyre evolves again. Last mana is used on Hunger of the Howlpack, with morbid activated, apply to Gyre.
A 6/7 elf that produces five green mana when tapped on turn three. Not bad to me.
As for Parasite; its the card that Orzhov needed, and I'm extremely happy with it.
Fairies is a tempo deck and it's one of the most expressive UB decks ever. UB can be a tempo color.
Right; which is why I hinted that U/B could even do aggro; its possible, but I don't think that's what U/B is known for. Mind Funeral, Countersquall, etc, are more "Classic" U/B cards.
Theoretically, after the thousands of cards that have been printed, every colour could perform any deck type, and do it feasibly well. Mono blue aggro, Red control, etc. Some colours are just better at some types than others. I feel that U/B should always "Officially" be recognized as a control pair, and have a keyword that reflects that.
Like Bloodrush in Gruul; it fits that pair's archetype very well.
A LOT of things are. I don't think that's fair.
He's not going to win games, but he's a fine card I think. My only problem is that, as a green creature and a mythic, he should have been a 4/4. Given his ability though, that *might* have been overpowered.
Not a fan of Golgari Charm?
Poor, lonely Cipher.
I sincerely hope Dimir gets something better than what it has so far. Is Undercity Plague a powerful effect? Sure, but six mana and all the removal we have, its not looking good at all.
I can concede to this; because its true. Dissipate is almost always better than Cancel, and I say "almost" because I'm sure there are decks out there where someone wants a countered spell in their opponent's graveyard.
But the problem I'm having here is that Gyre isn't *just* a mana maker, she's (I'm assuming its a she) potentially a lot more. From a beefy attacker to something makes more mana than a playset of "traditional" rampers. Do to this, its not a clear case of something being strictly better or not.
In a deck dedicated to a certain strategy, this one probably revolving around +1/+1 counters, I feel that Gyre could do fairly well, and not just against casual Chimney Imp decks.
Several, thank you. Granted, most of them were local, but I can assure you that there a plenty of Spikes like you that have fallen to it. I also have a URG deck that was built purely as a Tournament deck, but it makes my Johnny heart weep because it is.
But really, it sounds to me that "Good cards for Wrathberry" are cards that Spikes have run into the ground, and there's nothing else worth looking at. Like you're the de facto authority on what makes a "Good deck," and cards that aren't actually bad get ripped a part because of that.
Even the most over-used decks in history still lose, because every deck runs into the same potential problems as another; bad hand, bad draw, etc.
A combo of Strangle Root Geist and Rapid Hybridization alone creates a 3/2 and a 3/3 in an early turn. If you have Cloudfin Raptor and Gyre on the field at the same time, things get even better.
Its about being progressive. Can you get blown away by Verdict? Sure. Bonefire? Yes. But any deck can, so its not at all fair or objective to say that certain decks/cards are bad because they fall to things that nearly every other on can.
EDIT: And this has gone on FAR too long, so I'm ending the discussion here. Case and point; its not a bad card, and it *could* find a place in certain decks, even in Standard. Rune Snag is an amazing counterspell, but Remand sees more play in Modern because... Its popular.
The fact that you think Hunger is a "bad card" doesn't mean it is; it means that's your opinion. I run a Golgari deck surrounded by Corpsejack counters, and Hunger is splendid. Its the same here; I suppose you also believe that Rapid Hybridization is a "bad" card?
It depends on how you use them.
Or turn three, I listed a scenario pages back, and that's only one, one where it produced five times the amount of mana an Elf can.
And... You can use it? I don't understand; its a normal tap ability; so even if you're tapped out you can still use Gyre to generate mana.
And I am thinking, which is why I'm arguing I guess. Although I seem to be doing so for no reason. I'm a Johnny kind of player, and I see an easily usable card with the right other cards in the same deck. I never once said it was tournament material, but Gyre's not a "OMG waste of cardboard."
Those spells would hurt anyone though, wouldn't they? I'm just sick of seeing "Bad card is bad because I say so" comments, when the person obviously hasn't tried theory-crafting with it.
And I suppose I haven't been updated on what decks are popular now; last I checked things like Sever the Bloodline were popular. So I concede there could be meta-specific things I'm not seeing.
Llanowar Elf stays a 1/1, unless we're in Elf Tribal or with things like Gaea's Anthem, whereas Gyre can grow to be the creature that wins the game. It also begins producing more mana than the Elf, Birds, or Pilgrim by its second evolve; which in Simic, or URG, would be very quickly. So he has the potential to be far more versatile than any of them.
And if your opponent kills it removal? They wasted mana and a card on something that only cost two mana. Granted, pulling Gyre on turn four or five will be frustrating, but personally I feel the same with any of the other "Good" mana rampers as well.
You can't throw it in any deck hoping that it will stick, it needs to be included with thought, but that's hardly a bad thing.
And it doesn't *have* to be a 2/3 on turn three, but even if it is, it still produces as much mana as an Elf would.
You also need to consider that its not the only card in the deck, and there are many things we have in Standard alone to make it better; Cloudshift, Undying, Hunger of the Howlpack, Increasing Savagery, etc.
EDIT: In the end, I think Gyre's a fine card because it can easily become a far stronger presence than even three Elves; its not *just* a ramp card, it can beat your opponent's face as well.
I think someone is forgetting what kind of decks Gyre will be seen in. Hint: ones with a lot of creatures, where +1/+1 counters will be raining from the sky. Not only will she get a lot bigger, it will produce more mana than usual because of it.
Zameck Guildmage even allows everyone to enter with additional counters, so there's that.
Others might not have seen play, but they didn't have evolve, and as a 1/2, Gyre will evolve easily and often; another 1/2 would trigger it.
Its not breathtaking, but you couldn't (objectively) begin to call it "terrible."
I said the play I listed required a lucky hand, because it does, but its not as ridiculous as say; a first turn win with Dark Depths after a Dark Ritual, Vampire Hexmage, Sol Ring, lotus petal, and Lightning Greeves.
The example I gave is easily feasible, and even in later turns, its not a bad one. I'm not trying to say that Gyre is constructed gold, but she's better than I think many people on this thread first suspected.
T2: Gyre.
T3: Land, play Strangleroot Geist, Gyre evolves. Kill off Geist and as its undying resolves, Gyre evolves again. Last mana is used on Hunger of the Howlpack, with morbid activated, apply to Gyre.
A 6/7 elf that produces five green mana when tapped on turn three. Not bad to me.
As for Parasite; its the card that Orzhov needed, and I'm extremely happy with it.
Right; which is why I hinted that U/B could even do aggro; its possible, but I don't think that's what U/B is known for. Mind Funeral, Countersquall, etc, are more "Classic" U/B cards.
Theoretically, after the thousands of cards that have been printed, every colour could perform any deck type, and do it feasibly well. Mono blue aggro, Red control, etc. Some colours are just better at some types than others. I feel that U/B should always "Officially" be recognized as a control pair, and have a keyword that reflects that.
Like Bloodrush in Gruul; it fits that pair's archetype very well.