I would like some peoples input on playing against Grixis Twin(while piloting the usual CoCo Zoo).
I find it's a difficult matchup to win as they are able to grind very well through cards like Snapcaster Mage to rebut from their yard and Kolaghan's Command to recycle their Snapcaster Mages. All of this happens while having the threat of the Twin combo happening.
With their ability to grind so well, I find that it typically comes to a place where they've run us out of resources and they have assembled a grip of Splinter Twin, combo dork and a variety of counter spells.
As I find our "all out" can get blunted by their ability to grind, I think we need another angle to come at them from. While this might sound like I'm saying "well, burn zoo is the way to go as we could out race them with that reach", I was thinking we could try to blunt their grinding ability. It would require changing up the creature base somewhat (as we have graveyard dependant creatures) but maybe some number of Rest in Peace could do the trick? It makes Tasigur, the Golden Fang harder to cast, cuts off Snapcaster Mage and reduces their ability to rebuy a variety of creatures with Kolaghan's Command. It does this while making some other (while more fringe) matchups better like Grishoalbrand, Gifts, Vengivine and any other deck that loves using their graveyard.
I'd love to hear about how others find the matchup.
Edited: After seeing LSV's deck from yesterday you can see that the Grixis shells just looooooooooooooove using the graveyard.
Question for ya, I've been looking at the list. I think the listed count is at 59. Not the totals above each card type, but in the lists. Curious what that last card is for you? I usually see BoP in that slot.
Brian Kiblar has used it before for the same reason I am. When its ackward to play grim, but you're playing bigger dudes, tracker works better. Bigger dudes=more mana/ mana dorks= Fight can matter more.
Its cocoable as well, basically I was subbing out grim for him.
Could it be brought in against Splinter Twin? Been having issues against Grixis Twin, thought this could come in to fight off their few dudes as they are played.
Gilt-Leaf Palace is in the process of a buyout (SCG had some SP ones for less than $4 each after shipping, so I grabbed those). Also traded into Abrupt Decays a couple days ago, so G/B is definitely a possibility
Black opens to some more sideboard (or main) options as far as removal goes, but what do we go with?
I included the Maybe board as these are possible place holders for my 4th GoST. Illusory Angel and Serra Avenger are the most plausible as hard casting them is not as much of an issue as Skaab Ruinator can be, although it seems like it could be a nice blow out flip off CoCo.
All modern master cards will crawl back up in price. The aim has been to stablize not lower... Which kinda blows. But yes. Noble is as low as it will go for now.
same for the ole goyfy
I believe you mean, el goyfo
Still has to be one of the alters that I`ll chuckle at
Game 2: Kept a greedy hand, had my potential turn one play stripped. Scooped after seeing 15 cards and no second land.
Game 3: Extremely long and drawn out game where he was able to stabilize. This was the first real game where I found out that he really was just a control deck. He had board wipes, and Vedalken Shackles. Went down to the wire with him at 1 and he top decked a Lightning Bolt to kill me after much draw-go.
(0/1)
Match Two - Junk
Game 1: Had him on the ropes for quite a while, but he was able to hold me off. He drew 3 Lingering Souls and 3 Path to Exiles that game, it made life quite hard.
Game 2: Massively flooded out. Had a good hand of two creatures, two pieces of removal and some lands. Then drew 5 lands for the next 6 turns. Kid must have been crazy at cutting my deck…
(0/2)
Match Three - Grixis Twin
Game 1: Turn two Thalia, Guardian of Thraben helped a lot to disrupt his early game. This was a lengthy game, he was drew all 4 of his Snapcaster Mages and was able to Kolaghan’s Command one of them. There was a lot of value to be had on his side. Dromoka's Command was never a blank, it was wonderful every time that I drew it. Felt amazing to fight and kill their silly Deceiver Exarchs.
Game 2: He again managed to make the game go quite long, but as usual with this list I’m able to do a lot of damage prior to their stabilization. Brought in Rest in Peace for this matchup and it was fantastic. Went down to being top decks and constantly being able to deploy a threat helped out bigtime.
(1/2)
Match Four - U/G Infect
Game 1: I had a wonderful hand and was beating down hard. Ended up dying to 10 infect all in one turn after he gave protection from my blocker’s color.
Game 2: Had a fast hand and was able to remove his early Spellskite. Had a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben around turn 4 and it messed up aaaalll of his plans as that 1 extra in the cost of their cheap spells makes a huge difference.
Game 3: Wrecked most of his plans with an early Volcanic Fallout. After which I had removal for all of his dudes as I was able to chip his life down.
(2/2)
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What I was able to see around the room after matches has shown me that there has been quite the metagame shift. Both Jund and Junk were present, along with Anafenza's Company. Twin and Ad Nauseam are still around but midrange has shown back up. As such, I think I might move back into Domain Zoo (probably the older one wit Rhino). Any suggestions?
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited: Had to fix some broken formatting
What do you guys suggest is the best build ATM for a small zoo, lots of 1-drops + goyf and spells to back it up.. ?
Yup, that would be the way to run it. Once you know your metagame tune your list to play the best against it.
For example, in my meta there are a lot of combo decks and no GB(x) decks so my small zoo list has been tweaked to work against them. Hit them low and fast with a lot of cards in the main (but serve a good function) to help fend off combo.
I would by no means say that my list is gospel, but it's an idea of how you can shape your list once you know what you are up against.
Hey man. Seal saw play bak when blood braid and eggs existed.
Not saying anything is wrong with Seal of Fire, I've still played it along side Tarfire when I'm playing straight R/G as I want non-wimpy Tarmogoyfs early on.
I like the idea of Rest For the Weary in my sideboard for the burn matchup. I'm leaning more toward the hasty deck (although I think it has 63 cards) because in testing Burning Tree and Atarka's Command can make ridiculous turns happen. I didn't think of dismember and I really like it. I think I'll test the hasty deck, with a few personal changes.
Edit: Also I was wondering what my worst matchups are so that I can designate spots to those matchups
Yup, that's my fault. I added in the 3 Dismember and didn't remove anything.
I find it's a difficult matchup to win as they are able to grind very well through cards like Snapcaster Mage to rebut from their yard and Kolaghan's Command to recycle their Snapcaster Mages. All of this happens while having the threat of the Twin combo happening.
With their ability to grind so well, I find that it typically comes to a place where they've run us out of resources and they have assembled a grip of Splinter Twin, combo dork and a variety of counter spells.
As I find our "all out" can get blunted by their ability to grind, I think we need another angle to come at them from. While this might sound like I'm saying "well, burn zoo is the way to go as we could out race them with that reach", I was thinking we could try to blunt their grinding ability. It would require changing up the creature base somewhat (as we have graveyard dependant creatures) but maybe some number of Rest in Peace could do the trick? It makes Tasigur, the Golden Fang harder to cast, cuts off Snapcaster Mage and reduces their ability to rebuy a variety of creatures with Kolaghan's Command. It does this while making some other (while more fringe) matchups better like Grishoalbrand, Gifts, Vengivine and any other deck that loves using their graveyard.
I'd love to hear about how others find the matchup.
Edited: After seeing LSV's deck from yesterday you can see that the Grixis shells just looooooooooooooove using the graveyard.
Question for ya, I've been looking at the list. I think the listed count is at 59. Not the totals above each card type, but in the lists. Curious what that last card is for you? I usually see BoP in that slot.
Could it be brought in against Splinter Twin? Been having issues against Grixis Twin, thought this could come in to fight off their few dudes as they are played.
I've checked:
Can't find that land...
Holy moly! Illusory Angel would be a cool card to hit off of a Collected Company! I wouldn't have thought of that one.
I believe you mean, el goyfo
Still has to be one of the alters that I`ll chuckle at
There we go, I see ya now!
I don't see ya D:
Pending on what kind of Zoo build you are running, that one extra mana can make a huge difference.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Loxodon Smiter
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dromoka's Command
3 Path to Exile
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Stony Silence
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kor Firewalker
Match One - Grixis Control
Match Two - Junk
Match Three - Grixis Twin
Match Four - U/G Infect
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What I was able to see around the room after matches has shown me that there has been quite the metagame shift. Both Jund and Junk were present, along with Anafenza's Company. Twin and Ad Nauseam are still around but midrange has shown back up. As such, I think I might move back into Domain Zoo (probably the older one wit Rhino). Any suggestions?
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I really like the look of this 75. Best of luck!!
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Edited: Had to fix some broken formatting
Yup, that would be the way to run it. Once you know your metagame tune your list to play the best against it.
For example, in my meta there are a lot of combo decks and no GB(x) decks so my small zoo list has been tweaked to work against them. Hit them low and fast with a lot of cards in the main (but serve a good function) to help fend off combo.
I would by no means say that my list is gospel, but it's an idea of how you can shape your list once you know what you are up against.
Not saying anything is wrong with Seal of Fire, I've still played it along side Tarfire when I'm playing straight R/G as I want non-wimpy Tarmogoyfs early on.
And if we want to go even farther trying to get things to pump Tarmogoyf... Seal of Fire
My thought is shave Loxodon Smiters if there's not much blue in your meta, otherwise Woolly Thoctar.
Woolly Thoctar can trade with Seige Rhino and Loxodon Smiter can't.
Yup, that's my fault. I added in the 3 Dismember and didn't remove anything.
Maybe shave one of each of these?
Maybe cutting more of the Atarka's Commands if you want to keep all the Mutagenic Growths? Although you seem to quite like Atarka's Command so do what you will