I found this deck online and didn't know where to post it exactly on MTGS, but I wanted to know what you guys thought about it. I really love the idea of Esper control with Agent of Bolas but I'm not sure how to build around him.
I've been tweaking a little bit to try to find a decent list. I still feel that it's a little weak for the moment but it does win a fair amount of times. I may be working on the wrong lists as well. Here's what I'm testing right now.
The numbers are pretty random but correspond more or less to what I want to have in the deck. Vial is really cool to put in the guildmage for the win. Spellskite and snacpaster add value to the vial as well as ToK that gets rid of extra copies. Bolt is an enabler as well as a very good card in general and with snapcaster. With snapcaster, muddle the mixture is better than infiltrator but the fact that you transmute in sorcery kind of sucks. It's still nice to have a bit of redundancy for the combo.
In general, I feel that this combo needs a third colour to work. UB just has too weak cards in general to do anything good IMO. I miss some real removal like abrupt decay so going BUG is a possibility.
Let me know what you think.
I just don't really understand the point of Snapcaster in your list, if you're trying to combo off on turn 4, then I don't think you should be wasting time casting creatures for more removal, especially when you don't have very many ways to get cards in the GY.
So far I feel like most of the thread is relying on Thought Scour (which can work well both ways for Mindcrank retrieval from the GY) and Ghost Quarter for enablers. I suggested Bolt before too and yeah it's pretty good, but like I said I feel that just getting all the pieces on the board ASAP is what's important.
I tested a little bit with Snapcaster mage as a 2 of which I would fetch with MtM, but it only came in use 2/say 14 games, in which case I still lost. This is all personal opinion by the way, I still like your list and am glad it's working out. I think the one I've built really capitalizes on some of the strats we've thought up in the thread so far, lemme know what you think.
**Second Edit** I also really like the idea of mainboarding Damnation. Board wipes are a pretty good idea. Hell, I'd even think about sticking in Devastation Tide.
@ntdars im on that direction. spellskite focus on abrupt decay and just recur spellskite for sacrificing to liliana of the veil. ill test apostle's blessing later. im still not convinced on gut shot and gitaxian probe unless the meta shifted to a point where the defining creatures are x/1. probe is just a cantrip.
I just feel like the ability to watch out for Counterspells for free with a Cantrip before you combo off can be surprisingly good, especially when they're you're convinced they have a Counterspell or Removal in hand so it stops you from piecing together the combo, but they actually don't. I'd at least have it in the sideboard vs Control matchups, maybe not for aggro/combo.
To combat all these, I recommend bounce and Apostle's Blessing (Faith's Shield and Disenchant work if you splash white). Spellskite and spot removal (which also help against the above) are likely good enough for the maindeck.
If you have any creature out, apparently you can cast Knack while AD is on the stack, have it resolve, then tap the targeted creature bouncing the target of AD (In this case, most commonly Mindcrack), or you could even bounce the Guildmage.
For those that think them having a blocker is going to matter, or them having removal is going to matter. You realize that after you activate the ability, even if they path him or trade creatures, his ability still happens. So unless you're swinging into a goyf on turn 3/4 they are either:
Casting a spell to kill him, which still ends up going to the GY and giving you the win
Trading creatures to kill him, which still ends up going to the GY and giving you the win
Not block or casting, which also triggers mindcrank, thus winning you the game.
Seems like a pretty reasonable win con to me. Just slow play the deck and set up to where you can't lose, similar to a high tide type combo. You don't need the quick win necessarily to combo. Make sure that when you go for it, you are either going to lose next turn or you have so much backup it would be dumb not to.
This is awesome advice. I guess putting Gut Shot's in the board aren't that neccessary then; maybe in the sideboard for certain situations + another win con.
If that's the case, would stacking up on Counterspells/Protection spells be ideal?
Well the fact that you keep making things up, changing your argument, and making personal attacks towards me to, make up for your lack of valid points makes discussing with you most problematic. So from here, im just going to ignore you, as its not worth my time trying to debate with someone so clueless and transparent.
But if anyone of merit has any actual reasons for why DRS should be kept intact, im welcome to hear it. Because word is its on the chopping block, and for very good reason. I just want people to understand why.
Jund was already dominating the format before DRS. Nuff' said.
I tend to deal with Karn and blowing up Mindcrank by attempting to get Spellskite first. Sadly, early Liliana usually makes me sac Spellskite, so my Mindcrank still gets Abrupt Decayed. (I'm currently going for speed and consistency over protection--my only protection is Remand, targeted discard, and spot removal.) I play one Academy Ruins, but it's only good against grindy decks (I'm not sure Jund is grindy enough--it's a little fast), and its colourless mana is a pain.
Flashback spells cast from the graveyard will be exiled no matter what happens to them, so countering them won't work. (Yeah, Jund got annoying when I had to get out the combo without enabling it because of an active Liliana--they got 2 more Spirit tokens and started the beats.)
Anyway, I just made those points because they all show that you (and I) cannot afford to wait to draw an enabler before comboing off. Zoo and Jund kept attacking through the assembled but not enabled combo (they tended to hold back an X/3+ or a token).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I ran out of disruption at the time against RDW (and I had no Spellskite), so I couldn't deal with Bolt or Goblin Guide. Perhaps the better play would have been to just plain trade the Guildmage with Guide and hope to draw into another one...screw it, RDW Bolts me afterwards.
I waited forever for Wurmcoil Engine to appear most games against Tron. I couldn't enable the combo for quite a while in one game. I just replaced Slaughter Pact with Gut Shot for my free enabler slot because Slaughter Pact doesn't work against too many decks. If I play Lotus Bloom or Pentad Prism to increase speed, though, the free enabler slot goes.
Yeah, I also agree that Duskmantle Guildmage has to be played last. I tend to combo off with an enabler in hand, so I'm investing 5 mana (or 3 mana and a Vial at 2--I love the Vial suggestion in this thread; I was using Pentad Prism and it was fine, but I love the surprise factor Vial has and the fear it later brings on, so I've swapped to Vials) into the Guildmage to get him out and activate him in the same turn. That way, he dodges creature removal. Lavamancer isn't so bad against me because I tend to combo off cautiously.
I agree that Thought Scour and Ghost Quarter are staying. Ghost Quarter has been the enabler I use the most often (I aim Thought Scour at myself probably 70% of the time--I drain it really fast if I have GQ in hand or on the battlefield), but Thought Scour is second place. I've rarely used the free enabler slot or targeted discard as enablers (but I've used the free enabler slot more often). Given my cautious play style, 2 mana is too expensive for an enabler for me (that means I need to hit 7 mana instead of 5-6).
I really think the 3 hard hitting Phyrexian spells should take spots in this deck; Probe, ABlessing, and Gutshot. Sure, you're wasting your life away by using it, but in my experience so far if you can't get the combo off you're ****ed.
Gutshot is a great enabler, seeing as how it's free and lets you combo off with only 3 mana open, saving room for say a Muddle The Mixture or another counter spell. ABlessing is just a ridiculously good card in my opinion, and can protect your investments.
Probe is probe, watch out for their counterspells. Either way though, Ghost Quarter and Thought Scour are here to stay it seems.
***EDIT***
With that said, this is how I figured this deck would play out. I'm not good at formatting decklists on the forum, sorry;
I really feel like the power of Phyrexian mana will allow you to combo off much earlier, and since it's really all or nothing in this deck losing some life to help that combo succeed isn't a big deal. Gut Shot is in there as another enabler for now but I could see it being sideboarded. Apostle's Blessing is sweet, and so is Probe. Muddle the Mixture really helps you get the cards you need in hand and also acts as an awesome counter spell.
The only other addition I could think of that would be very powerful is Bob. Someone suggested it a few pages back and I think it would be sweet, seeing as how its in the 2CMC mark for muddle.
I took Academy Ruins over Buried Ruins only because I feel like you need as much mana as possible to ensure this combo goes off. Sacing lands I dont think is in our best interest when we could be using those lands to fuel our protection/counterspells.
if you have enough mana to use its activated ability just swing and use its ability and win
But swinging is no where near as reliable as a burn to the face :/ Although I do like the idea of putting Thought Scour instead, as it starts the combo off plus you can use it to maybe self mill yourself to maybe open up more options for a Snapcaster?
Just a thought a buddy and I had last night; we figured splashing red in the decklist for Geistflame or Lightning Bolt (or any other 1cmc burn for that matter) would pretty much garuntee the combo going off on turn 4. Plus, you could always self mill and cast Geistflame from the GY. I really think Snapcaster and Bob would be great additions to this deck as well.
One of the the only reasons why elves are viable in modern is solely because of heritage druid, its a must have to every elf deck, even aggro. I will give you an example.
Me vs Red Burn
Turn 1: Land, LLanowar Elf
Turn 1: Land, bolt
Turn 2: Land, arbor elf, nettle sentinel
Turn 2: Goblin Guide, bolt Arbor, swing guide
Turn 3: Swing nettle, drop deathrite, heritage druid, tap 3 elf, lead the stampede, draw 5 elfs, go
This is just an example as to what heritage druid has done and will do for your deck. It is a must have for elfs in modern.
Fair enough What would you recommend cutting then?
I really don't want to sacrifice more mana dorks since I'm also relying on a combo, Deathrite at 3 can still give me good protection from Combo and such, Warcaller I find that his strengths really rely on pumping him for say 10 to uber buff, something that won't happen right away. 16 Lands may be a bad idea, but I'm not sure.
I tried my hand at it, with some slight changes. I really tried to merge the Aggro/Combo side of the deck, leaving you with some choices if you even wanted to combo off with Fauna Shaman.
(This is my first post on MTGSalvation, so sorry if I get some formatting wrong.)
Before you ask, lemme point out some obviously weird decisions and you can critique me however you'd like
* Only one Elvish Champion - Seeing as how I already have 3-4 Lords pumping the rest of my Elves to make them 2-3 turn clocks under the right conditions, I find the Elvish Champions ability to add Forest Walk as more of a win condition against Green decks. The +1/+1 is good even if I pulled her in my starting hand, but if I ever needed to fetch her for the Forest Walk/Unblockable Lethal it's a good option.
* Golgari/Lys Alana Scarblade Synergy - I saw this in the post above and really liked the idea of being able to fetch Jarad whenever I'm playing against maybe a Control/Fog deck, or even in situations like a stalemate.
* Lack of Heritate Druid - I could be wrong on this, but with all the mana pump from 8 mana dorks mixed with Archdruid, I find all of those to be more reliable than Druid, although, switching it with Arbor Elf would make sense to me. You guys could probably convince me otherwise.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9730&iddeck=71052
I just don't really understand the point of Snapcaster in your list, if you're trying to combo off on turn 4, then I don't think you should be wasting time casting creatures for more removal, especially when you don't have very many ways to get cards in the GY.
So far I feel like most of the thread is relying on Thought Scour (which can work well both ways for Mindcrank retrieval from the GY) and Ghost Quarter for enablers. I suggested Bolt before too and yeah it's pretty good, but like I said I feel that just getting all the pieces on the board ASAP is what's important.
I tested a little bit with Snapcaster mage as a 2 of which I would fetch with MtM, but it only came in use 2/say 14 games, in which case I still lost. This is all personal opinion by the way, I still like your list and am glad it's working out. I think the one I've built really capitalizes on some of the strats we've thought up in the thread so far, lemme know what you think.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mindcrank-simic/
**Second Edit** I also really like the idea of mainboarding Damnation. Board wipes are a pretty good idea. Hell, I'd even think about sticking in Devastation Tide.
I just feel like the ability to watch out for Counterspells for free with a Cantrip before you combo off can be surprisingly good, especially when they're you're convinced they have a Counterspell or Removal in hand so it stops you from piecing together the combo, but they actually don't. I'd at least have it in the sideboard vs Control matchups, maybe not for aggro/combo.
I think something like this? This is the only successful decklist I've found so far
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51856
Lack of Ponder?
True, but I feel like more people will use AD in response to the activation of the Guildmage ability, could just be intuition though.
I think just running a lot of artifact retrieval from the GY is the best answer to uncounterable AD.
I think I may have actually found a way to deal with Abrupt Decay (rhyme not intended).
Banishing Knack?
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=154350
If you have any creature out, apparently you can cast Knack while AD is on the stack, have it resolve, then tap the targeted creature bouncing the target of AD (In this case, most commonly Mindcrack), or you could even bounce the Guildmage.
Is that a bad idea?
This is awesome advice. I guess putting Gut Shot's in the board aren't that neccessary then; maybe in the sideboard for certain situations + another win con.
If that's the case, would stacking up on Counterspells/Protection spells be ideal?
Jund was already dominating the format before DRS. Nuff' said.
I really think the 3 hard hitting Phyrexian spells should take spots in this deck; Probe, ABlessing, and Gutshot. Sure, you're wasting your life away by using it, but in my experience so far if you can't get the combo off you're ****ed.
Gutshot is a great enabler, seeing as how it's free and lets you combo off with only 3 mana open, saving room for say a Muddle The Mixture or another counter spell. ABlessing is just a ridiculously good card in my opinion, and can protect your investments.
Probe is probe, watch out for their counterspells. Either way though, Ghost Quarter and Thought Scour are here to stay it seems.
***EDIT***
With that said, this is how I figured this deck would play out. I'm not good at formatting decklists on the forum, sorry;
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mindcrank-simic/
I really feel like the power of Phyrexian mana will allow you to combo off much earlier, and since it's really all or nothing in this deck losing some life to help that combo succeed isn't a big deal. Gut Shot is in there as another enabler for now but I could see it being sideboarded. Apostle's Blessing is sweet, and so is Probe. Muddle the Mixture really helps you get the cards you need in hand and also acts as an awesome counter spell.
The only other addition I could think of that would be very powerful is Bob. Someone suggested it a few pages back and I think it would be sweet, seeing as how its in the 2CMC mark for muddle.
I took Academy Ruins over Buried Ruins only because I feel like you need as much mana as possible to ensure this combo goes off. Sacing lands I dont think is in our best interest when we could be using those lands to fuel our protection/counterspells.
But swinging is no where near as reliable as a burn to the face :/ Although I do like the idea of putting Thought Scour instead, as it starts the combo off plus you can use it to maybe self mill yourself to maybe open up more options for a Snapcaster?
Fair enough
**QUICK EDIT** -1 Arbor Elf / -1 Deathrite Shaman / -1 Joraga Warcaller / -1 Forest / +4 Heritage Druid
I really don't want to sacrifice more mana dorks since I'm also relying on a combo, Deathrite at 3 can still give me good protection from Combo and such, Warcaller I find that his strengths really rely on pumping him for say 10 to uber buff, something that won't happen right away. 16 Lands may be a bad idea, but I'm not sure.
(This is my first post on MTGSalvation, so sorry if I get some formatting wrong.)
TappedOut.net Link here; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gb-elves-10-12-12-1/
Before you ask, lemme point out some obviously weird decisions and you can critique me however you'd like
* Only one Elvish Champion - Seeing as how I already have 3-4 Lords pumping the rest of my Elves to make them 2-3 turn clocks under the right conditions, I find the Elvish Champions ability to add Forest Walk as more of a win condition against Green decks. The +1/+1 is good even if I pulled her in my starting hand, but if I ever needed to fetch her for the Forest Walk/Unblockable Lethal it's a good option.
* Golgari/Lys Alana Scarblade Synergy - I saw this in the post above and really liked the idea of being able to fetch Jarad whenever I'm playing against maybe a Control/Fog deck, or even in situations like a stalemate.
* Lack of Heritate Druid - I could be wrong on this, but with all the mana pump from 8 mana dorks mixed with Archdruid, I find all of those to be more reliable than Druid, although, switching it with Arbor Elf would make sense to me. You guys could probably convince me otherwise.