I like how we went from "midrange creature decks completely suck vs terminus" to "salty jund players wanting their deck to be the best again".
Newsflash: Wanting Midrange to be able to compete in Modern does not equate to wanting Midrange to be the best archetype.
And how would that work?
Modern is a non-rotating format. Have you looked at the other non-rotating formats? There isn't much Midrange around in them. Can you play something like Jund /Naya/Abzan etc. in Legacy? Of course. It is actually a good idea? No, it isn't.
I have made a big post about Midrange in this thread quite a while ago and also made a separate thread about it so I don't want to repeat everything.
In the end Midrange is a jack of all trades, master of none archetype. It trades power for adaptability and versatility. It does multiple things but nothing really well. That's fine in Standard because the power level isn't that high to begin with and it was also fine in Modern when it was younger. But as the format grows older it grows more powerful and that's where the problem lies. Every other archetype absolutely knows what it wants to do and is focused on that and if they get to do it that will always trump everything a Midrange deck is capable of doing.
Yes actually. Midrange is actually doing just fine in legacy compared to modern. Both blue-based and otherwise. Maverick continues to find its way around. Greedy 4 color value machines like Czech pile can carve a niche just fine in legacy. Grixis control, despite its name plays very much like a midrange deck, as does stoneblade.
If anything, legacy lacks in aggro, not midrange.
Not strong enough to be at the top consistently but able to perform decently to carve out a niche for dedicated players. Is that an unreasonable expectation for midrange in modern?
I would say that it already is that way but obviously that requires an exact definition to actually measure things. If we look at tournament results we often see at least some number of Midrange decks in them. Maybe they haven't won, maybe they didn't even make top 8 but they were in the upper echelons of a tournament. There is also the issue of defining the Death's Shadow decks because if you define them as Midrange as it is on this site for example then things look even better.
I assume that is not good enough for you so how much more should it be in your opinion?
Nobody actually knows that and there is good chance nobody ever will.
Anyone with any experience with either deck could likely draw that conclusion. As I mentioned before, it attacks on every weakness of Twin: discard, counters, removal, and a quick clock backed by things that don't die to Lightning Bolt. It's both faster and more robust than 2018 Jund, which itself is considerably more powerful than 2015 Jund.
The fear about Twin is perpetuated by myths and misinformation, as well as comparisons to decks that are orders of magnitude weaker than the current metagame. Or assumptions made by people who have never played with or against the deck (not saying you, but many on facebook, twitter, and reddit have demonstrated as much, such as "How does Spellskite even stop the combo!" and "Sudden Shock is the only way to beat a Pestermite with Twin on it!").
Look you don't have to convince me. Unban it or let it rot forever on the banlist. I honestly don't care and can live with either.
But I personally value facts and data over assumptions and guesses which brings us the point about you complaining about myths and misinformation. You actually do the same thing and as ktkenshinx pointed out the Thoughtseize/Abrupt Decay deck only had a 50/50 matchup against Twin. Something that you claimed as a bad matchup.
People like you should stop underselling the deck. It only hurts your credibility. People are not stupid and it's easy see through an obvious agenda.
If you are too biased to do that then you will never have an actual discussion on here or anywhere else that leads to anything.
I'm failing to see what redundant combo pieces you're referring to? Thoughtsieze routinely wrecked Twin decks. Also, Abrupt Decay is a card people seem to have forgotten about...
Again, I'm all for measured Twin unban arguments. But please stop stating/suggesting that TS/Decay was a significant issue for Twin. Twin was 50/50 against both Jund and Abzan in 2015.
Is 50% not a fair target? I mean...what was GW's % against Twin? A touch worse than 50% I would say.
Not really when those were supposed to be your "bad" matchups.
Myself and a VERY large group of people want to play cards that were favorites for us from standards past. Desiring for the format to at least be non-hostile to that isn't outrageous.
And I ask you too. How should that work?
Would you play with Gatekeeper Gargoyle and Deadly Visit in current Standard because you like those cards?
Probably not because those cards are bad compared to what else is in Standard.
You can play with any card in Modern that is your favorite. Nobody is stopping you from doing that. There are many people out there doing just that and they have fun doing it but it's honestly quite naive to think that you also get to have real success with that. Some cards will simply be better than others. That's just how it is and it's true for every single format in existence. From Limited to Vintage.
What you are asking for is impossible in anything but kitchen table Magic.
I like how we went from "midrange creature decks completely suck vs terminus" to "salty jund players wanting their deck to be the best again".
Newsflash: Wanting Midrange to be able to compete in Modern does not equate to wanting Midrange to be the best archetype.
And how would that work?
Modern is a non-rotating format. Have you looked at the other non-rotating formats? There isn't much Midrange around in them. Can you play something like Jund /Naya/Abzan etc. in Legacy? Of course. It is actually a good idea? No, it isn't.
I have made a big post about Midrange in this thread quite a while ago and also made a separate thread about it so I don't want to repeat everything.
In the end Midrange is a jack of all trades, master of none archetype. It trades power for adaptability and versatility. It does multiple things but nothing really well. That's fine in Standard because the power level isn't that high to begin with and it was also fine in Modern when it was younger. But as the format grows older it grows more powerful and that's where the problem lies. Every other archetype absolutely knows what it wants to do and is focused on that and if they get to do it that will always trump everything a Midrange deck is capable of doing.
You just know your going to drop that Drake, and RIP is going to come down and you'll never get more than a 1/1 out of it.
Sure but if somebody drops RIP against GDS for example they won't be able to play Gurmag Angler at all which are 4 out of their 8 threats and Snapcasters become Ambush Vipers. That's just how it is and the deck is still good and it doesn't make those cards unplayable.
This might be threat 9-12 for GDS. One of the weaknesses the deck currently has is just not finding a threat in time to close out the game with. A 5/5 flyer is a decent one though. Just how to see how it actually plays. After all this is not Delve like the Angler. It only counts instants and sorceries
Good to see unconditional 4 cmc board wipes again and I must say in a way it's cleverly designed. The lifegain part is for the most part not that relevant.
But the thing is most decks that want to run cards like in the maindeck are blue so you are immediately in 3 colors and WWBB is no joke. Obviously often your life depends on casting your wrath and if you then also want to run stuff like Absorb and Thought Erasure in the deck I can imagine you will lose a certain percentage of games simply because you were unable to cast all your spells in time.
I know a lot of people are excited for Esper. Im personally an Esper fanboy too but Jeskai still has tools that have no competition and it gains new stuff too like Electrodominance so it will be interesting to see how things turn out.
KCI clearly wasn't the deck to beat going into this tournament. That honor goes to Phoenix which was and still is everywhere and took the lions share of everyone's attention
Poor Jeskai. Not beating anything
But then Im personally not a fan of sacrificing late-game power and the best sweeper in the format for a bunch of burn spells.
I would say that it already is that way but obviously that requires an exact definition to actually measure things. If we look at tournament results we often see at least some number of Midrange decks in them. Maybe they haven't won, maybe they didn't even make top 8 but they were in the upper echelons of a tournament. There is also the issue of defining the Death's Shadow decks because if you define them as Midrange as it is on this site for example then things look even better.
I assume that is not good enough for you so how much more should it be in your opinion?
Look you don't have to convince me. Unban it or let it rot forever on the banlist. I honestly don't care and can live with either.
But I personally value facts and data over assumptions and guesses which brings us the point about you complaining about myths and misinformation. You actually do the same thing and as ktkenshinx pointed out the Thoughtseize/Abrupt Decay deck only had a 50/50 matchup against Twin. Something that you claimed as a bad matchup.
People like you should stop underselling the deck. It only hurts your credibility. People are not stupid and it's easy see through an obvious agenda.
If you are too biased to do that then you will never have an actual discussion on here or anywhere else that leads to anything.
Just my 2 cents.
Nobody actually knows that and there is good chance nobody ever will.
Not really when those were supposed to be your "bad" matchups.
And I ask you too. How should that work?
Would you play with Gatekeeper Gargoyle and Deadly Visit in current Standard because you like those cards?
Probably not because those cards are bad compared to what else is in Standard.
You can play with any card in Modern that is your favorite. Nobody is stopping you from doing that. There are many people out there doing just that and they have fun doing it but it's honestly quite naive to think that you also get to have real success with that. Some cards will simply be better than others. That's just how it is and it's true for every single format in existence. From Limited to Vintage.
What you are asking for is impossible in anything but kitchen table Magic.
And how would that work?
Modern is a non-rotating format. Have you looked at the other non-rotating formats? There isn't much Midrange around in them. Can you play something like Jund /Naya/Abzan etc. in Legacy? Of course. It is actually a good idea? No, it isn't.
I have made a big post about Midrange in this thread quite a while ago and also made a separate thread about it so I don't want to repeat everything.
In the end Midrange is a jack of all trades, master of none archetype. It trades power for adaptability and versatility. It does multiple things but nothing really well. That's fine in Standard because the power level isn't that high to begin with and it was also fine in Modern when it was younger. But as the format grows older it grows more powerful and that's where the problem lies. Every other archetype absolutely knows what it wants to do and is focused on that and if they get to do it that will always trump everything a Midrange deck is capable of doing.
Remember she is a renegade now
Sure but if somebody drops RIP against GDS for example they won't be able to play Gurmag Angler at all which are 4 out of their 8 threats and Snapcasters become Ambush Vipers. That's just how it is and the deck is still good and it doesn't make those cards unplayable.
This might be threat 9-12 for GDS. One of the weaknesses the deck currently has is just not finding a threat in time to close out the game with. A 5/5 flyer is a decent one though. Just how to see how it actually plays. After all this is not Delve like the Angler. It only counts instants and sorceries
But the thing is most decks that want to run cards like in the maindeck are blue so you are immediately in 3 colors and WWBB is no joke. Obviously often your life depends on casting your wrath and if you then also want to run stuff like Absorb and Thought Erasure in the deck I can imagine you will lose a certain percentage of games simply because you were unable to cast all your spells in time.
I know a lot of people are excited for Esper. Im personally an Esper fanboy too but Jeskai still has tools that have no competition and it gains new stuff too like Electrodominance so it will be interesting to see how things turn out.
Which certainly wasn't very hard to do and is also not much of an accomplishment.