See this is my point want to beat DS well play a deck that everyone complains about being unhealthy for the format because relying on interaction other than 1cc discard spells is a losing strategy.
So really we're all just saying we'd like better counter spells and non-black removal/interaction?
Yes.
Though someone made the point with Black having such good discard, blue is less relevant. Black can do almost anything Blue can do, and more. Blue has issues removing creatures from the battlefield. Black laughs at those creatures. Blue has issues stopping spells from resolving. Black doesn't even allow those spells to be cast. Blue has trouble finishing games off. Black has ample supplies of creatures.
Dont take that as me complaining about Blue. I still stand behind my view that Blue is an awesome support color, and that maybe its current state is exactly where it should be (in Modern).
It is, but I would say that's in spite of the weakness of blue answers in the format. It's doing well because it's really well positioned; UW Control is the best deck against DS decks. If DS gets banned, UW Control goes away.
I foresee As Foretold making a splash in UW come next week.
(can I get credit for that subtle play on words? :))
No, because Foresee has only seen modern play in U/R combo decks. ~Lantern
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Stronger blue permission is even less likely now, especially when they skinned the Miracles deck alive with this announcement. If they won't even tolerate the only control deck in the game with a banning, the chances are even lower now for strong counterspell reprints. And even if they do, expect it to be mythic rarity because WOTC is a business that cares about profits first. I wouldn't be surprised if Modern Masters 3 had fetchlands in them just because they needed to hit their quarterly numbers to appease their shareholders.
Miracles was overtly (1/3rds - 2/3rs at times) the best deck in that format. They killed it off due to top time constraints and power. They didnt kill off permission... they killed off top.
that announcement says top wont come off our banlist... not they hate control.
This. I was letting it go, but the hyperbole of WOTC killing permission in legacy because of the SDT ban, is....well, hyperbolic.
Which is why I want a strong permission card, and leave TS alone
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
I think development once admitted that TS was a mistake in retrospect. Again, I dont think they should ban it. Just make an as powerful permission card in blue, to match it. As I already stated, TS turn 1 is one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in Modern. Im not sure of many others that are as powerful.
Not that I want to bring that up again, but since someone else did! I think TS is not oppressive like other cards in the format, but it is exactly the kind of card that most players underestimate its power level. TS is stronger than any permission in Modern. 2 Life is NOTHING compared to derailing an opponents first few turns. That, coupled with absolute knowledge of what your opponent has in hand, makes for one of the most powerful turn 1 plays you can make in the format.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
If you ban Traverse, DS gets a downgrade. All the versions of DS Ive seen that dont run Green, are more fair at power level. Traverse makes it hard to win when they can keep getting the next DS.
Its too bad, because I love the concept of Traverse as a card. Its just being abused, which is the problem. Green tutoring tends to get abused all the time (CoCo, Pod, Zenith, Chord, Stirrings).
Simian Spirit Guide and Ensnaring Brige are a problem how?
Particularly Ensnaring bridge. It dies to literally every sideboard artifact destruction card.
Please read the mini discussion that stemmed from that response. Thanks!
I skimmed through it and see no convincing argument for even a sideways glance at Ensnaring Brige, let alone a ban.
SSG is a very good card, that could be problematic in the right environment but isn't at the moment. Maybe not play a manabase that is shredded by BM? In fact BM is perhaps one of the good antidotes to super greedy manabases that enable easy cherrypicking of the best cards in the format and goodstuff.dec.
I play Blood Moon. I love it. And I agree it is a good check card. Im talking about resolving it too early. Same goes for Chalice.
I skimmed through it and see no convincing argument for even a sideways glance at Ensnaring Brige, let alone a ban.
SSG is a very good card, that could be problematic in the right environment but isn't at the moment.
Exactly, we agreed that EB wasn't really ban worthy, though a game stopper once resolved game 1 especially (basically a free win game 1 most of the time). Starting a match 1-0 is a good leg up, dont you think?
SSG allows for degenerate plays, but I agreed I cannot agree with an all out ban right now (though I wouldn't fight back if it got the axe).
The issue with banning cards like Ensnaring Bridge is where do you draw the line. Bridge and Blood Moon people point at as obvious ones. But Choke and Boil can be even more brutal because they are one sided. Then what about Grafdiggers Cage or Rest in Peace which hose decks. Hate cards exist and part of Modern's appeal should be that you have to know about and plan for these cards.
I wanted to focus more on SSG, and how it powers out cards way too early. And it almost always powers out cards that shouldnt be played that early (or at least weren't meant to be). And SSG cannot be responded to in anyway that would stop it (I mean, I guess Stifle (not in Modern) and Disallow are a thing)
If SSG was "R: add RR" to your mana pool, it would be fairer (still over-powered) than "Exile this card, add R to your mana pool".
Yes.
Though someone made the point with Black having such good discard, blue is less relevant. Black can do almost anything Blue can do, and more. Blue has issues removing creatures from the battlefield. Black laughs at those creatures. Blue has issues stopping spells from resolving. Black doesn't even allow those spells to be cast. Blue has trouble finishing games off. Black has ample supplies of creatures.
Dont take that as me complaining about Blue. I still stand behind my view that Blue is an awesome support color, and that maybe its current state is exactly where it should be (in Modern).
I foresee As Foretold making a splash in UW come next week.
(can I get credit for that subtle play on words? :))
No, because Foresee has only seen modern play in U/R combo decks. ~Lantern
Edit:
This. I was letting it go, but the hyperbole of WOTC killing permission in legacy because of the SDT ban, is....well, hyperbolic.
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
That being said, I dont see TS getting banned any time soon because it does not throttle any deck into Tier 1 on its own. If anything, Id prefer using TS as a reason for allowing stronger blue permission into modern.
Its too bad, because I love the concept of Traverse as a card. Its just being abused, which is the problem. Green tutoring tends to get abused all the time (CoCo, Pod, Zenith, Chord, Stirrings).
YUP!
I play Blood Moon. I love it. And I agree it is a good check card. Im talking about resolving it too early. Same goes for Chalice.
Exactly, we agreed that EB wasn't really ban worthy, though a game stopper once resolved game 1 especially (basically a free win game 1 most of the time). Starting a match 1-0 is a good leg up, dont you think?
SSG allows for degenerate plays, but I agreed I cannot agree with an all out ban right now (though I wouldn't fight back if it got the axe).
I wanted to focus more on SSG, and how it powers out cards way too early. And it almost always powers out cards that shouldnt be played that early (or at least weren't meant to be). And SSG cannot be responded to in anyway that would stop it (I mean, I guess Stifle (not in Modern) and Disallow are a thing)
If SSG was "R: add RR" to your mana pool, it would be fairer (still over-powered) than "Exile this card, add R to your mana pool".
Please read the mini discussion that stemmed from that response. Thanks!