I've been looking at this color combo in light of Temur Ascendancy, and the wonder card Radiant Flames. The build here aims to turn 2 hit Ascendancy, turn 3 Flames, turn 4 play a 6/6 haste vigilance trample and draw a card. Seems pretty good.
There are notable cards missing, but personally I don't like having double color cost cards in s 4color deck.
I feel like I should mention High Sentinals of Arashin when we are talking about fliers. Not saying it's the best, but It's a good body against Mantis Rider, can pump itself while pumping the team, grows with Megamorphs and Hangerback, comes down a turn earlier than Wingmate... It should be considered as a card in contrast or addition to Wingmate. It's also way easy to cast, which is relevant, especially having so much GG in the deck (if you are considering Avatar and such).
i think a lot of the issue is the herd mentality of the Pros. If group A decides on strategy 1, group b on 2, and a lone guy plays a rogue deck nearly to top 8, is it his deck isn't good enough? Or is it that he's the ONLY one running it, and with a game designed with variance, he didn't make it? 15 guys play the same good deck, and one guy plays an equally good deck, what are the chances he wins? 1 in 16 assuming equal skill level. Same applies here.
It's pretty clear that in general, Khans > Origins/BfZ. Between Rhino, Mantis Rider, Commands, Deathmist Protector (dare you to click it), and Ojutai, the cards are terribly strong. But I do think the metagame has room to grow. There are other powerful cards out there that people forget that got pushed out of last meta, that could easily come back. Every Surrak card from Khans seems forgotten, the Sidisi's, Butcher... And more. I feel like Wizards is trying to move away from "busted cards" territory with Origins and BfZ. They stumble with Jace and Hangerback, and BfZ they seemed to get right. There are some powerful cards, but nothing terribly busted. Gideon, maybe. But that's partly every one feeling the sting of Hero's Downfall exiting the scene.
Anyways, I'm still quite hopeful that there will be some good creativity to bring something different.
I gave some alternate sideboard choices. I didn't think I was suggesting things outside of what the deck is aiming to do. Do you really feel that way?
Reality Shift is a great tempo card. Conley Woods rated the card well, LSV hit it as a top five for constructed, and I would contend that when you have Den Protector, Deathmist Raptor and Haven Of The Spirit Dragon bringing guys back from the graveyard left and right, I would say that considering it as a possible sideboard card isn't out of the question. It also can hit opposing Ojutai's permanently, where as Encase cannot. If you hate the card, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a horrible card, or irrelevant as a potential sideboard card.
Is there something wrong with recommending Hornet Nest? It was a three-of in many sideboards of G/x/x decks.
Just bringing some thoughts and opinions. I do like your addition of one Whisperwood. Good to have in the main deck game 1 IMO.
I like the Wescoe list, which is pretty much yours (Whisperwood aside). Personally there are a couple cards I would change.
Main board:
I'm not sure I love the Mystic/Caryatid/Courser package with Bant. Other than getting you through the early game, IMO it leaves the deck with so much fluff. I'm not 100% sure what I would change it to for this deck, but I think there is room for evolution with dropping Mystic particularly.
Sideboard:
Reality Shift > Encase in Ice. Particularly against the decks you need it, the mirror and Red Dragons. Against the mirror, exiling their Deathmist/Den Protector is HUGE game. Same is true for getting Thunderbreak's off the board so their abilities don't stack, and obviously Stormbreath. Instant speed 2cmc exile. The only downside is the manifest, which in my experience is largely not an issue. The odds are in favor of lands/spells and usually not creatures.
More a Hornet nest. It's just to good against any ground pound deck. Tokens, Red aggro, whatever deck is aggressive. I'd have 3 SB minimum.
Stubborn Denial < Negate. I'd swap Denial out . Too circumstantial, and is 2cmc really too much to keep up?
Other than that, I think Bant, with two fetchlands, has been seriously underrated for awhile. Good to see it hitting the mainstream.
Well, since nobody is ever interested in talking about off-meta cards, here is the same Bant-Midrange deck with less synergy and cards that are currently played in other decks.
I've been dabbling with Bant Midrange as well. Particularly with the concept of early, cheap, resilient threats that can be "enhanced" via EOT effects (Warden pumps, Fleecemane Monstrous, Sagu Mauler morph) while having a dense low CMC instant speed spells to protect board and/or disrupt the opposing player. I've been playing this for awhile with reasonable success, but with consistency issue. Anticipate is a HUGE upgrade for the concept as it helps dig for needed cards. I'm still not sure about the numbers, and I think the Prophet and Ojutai are the 5 flex spots for the deck. I've loved Prophet in this deck because she swings tempo so hard, and being able to attack and defend with Maulers or Fleecemanes just wins the game. As to other cards, I've had a lot of success with High Sentinals of Arashin in place of the recent Ojutai. I think that Myth Realized is probably a great play for the deck as well, especially when Fleecemane rotates.
Round 1 against aggressive decks, the deck is 50% if on the play. It's probably 40% against aggressive decks when on the draw. Post board, Hornet Nest is a house that aggro decks just can't beat.
Against control the deck is VERY disruptive and competitive game 1. You can easily play one threat at a time, and each needs answered on it's own. You can easily sit back on your countermagic and play "their" game, cause you run Dig as well. Counter their Digs, force them to one-for-one and so on. Probably 40-50% game 1, all depends on the draws. Post board, again the matchup improves significantly with a full set of Disdainful Stroke and Negate.
Against midrange, I'd say the deck is over 50% game 1 and on. Our threats are better (Sagu > Siege Rhino) and the hexproof makes the deck resilient to the host of removal. Always playing at EOT is difficult for the midrange decks to handle.
I've been looking into something similar for a while. I don't know that I'm gonna run Ojutai's Command because I'm not sure I like the CMC. Here's my version of a Bant Aggro/Control deck.
The thought with my deck is keep a cheap early threat on the table, tap out on opponents end of turn to kill spell, counter, pump warden, anticipate, destroy. Then as the game progresses, use the hexproof creatures, Dig, Ajani and Prophet to out tempo them and overwhelm. It works well against midrange and control decks. Super fast aggro decks are the toughest matchup, but I'm still not sure how far to skew the deck for that matchup. Jeskai can be a tough competition, especially if you have Disdainful stroke main board (which I've pulled out because of how bad it is against aggro and Jeskai).
Overall, I like it and Anticipate was a HUGE upgrade for the deck idea. Helps you find the cards you need. You might notice too that I added quite a few 1-of's. I like having these in with Anticipate, because that card can level off the variance. Mastery is a no-brainer with Prophet doubling our mana, Elspeth gives us a decent wipe against big decks, and Monastary Siege is still in testing, while Soulfire Grand Master gives us more inevitability with the buy back of our 2cmc instants. Completely broken with Prophet in play.
Still considering lots of other cards. Looking at maybe dropping Prophet for Dragonlord Ojutai, and then fitting Brave The Sands into the deck somewhere. Seems like a pretty play with Fleecemane, Ojutai, and Sagu Mauler all with vigilance, can double block, and have hexproof.
Maybe so. I'm not sure you need to be full midrange to use Ajani Steadfast, his minus does get you to planeswalker ultimate a faster assuming a superfriends build. I guess there are two questions here: 1) Is Dragonlord Ojutai a viable threat if she has to tap? 2) Does a superfriends build of Bant need to be a control-late-game build?
I would answer #1 with, no. Ojutai needs vigilance to be worthwhile IMO. Hero's downfall, Stoke the Flames, Valorous Stance and Abzan Charm make that a certainty. Removal is too prevalent and too good. Their are 3 sources of vigilance that are constructed viable IMO, Ajani Steadfast, Heliod God of the Sun, Brave the Sands. The first two seem like solid plays in a constructed deck. The last could only be used if it's built around, which I'm pretty sure that this card is not worth it. If neither of cards 1 or 2 can make a decklist, then IMO Ojutai needs to stay on the sidelines.
With #2, with Ajani's, Jace, Kiora, Nissa, Narset and Elspeth, Bant super friends wouldn't need to be a super late game control deck with Ugin. There are quite a few combinations of walkers that can be great. For example, Ajani Steadfast into Nissa Worldwaker seems like a pretty good midrange play. A 5/5 trample vigilance first strike lifelink swing seems pretty good even against an opposing rhino. Maybe Nissa and Ojutai go in the same deck... I don't know, but there is a lot of room to explore with an awful lot of powerful walkers in Bant colors.
It seems to me that Dragonlord Ojutai is really really good. Best card to pair with it? Ajani Steadfast. Vigilance, flying, Lifelink, hexproof, first strike, +1+1. Seems like a pretty good combo turn 4 into turn 5. Steadfast has been under the radar for a long time despite being a decently good card. Brimaz into Ajani into Ojutai... Too good. Though, that is the point where you have to worry about sweepers, but still. Sit on your Brimaz and Ajani and wait out the sweeper, or have a couple copies of Ajani's Presence.
I think Bant is definitely a huge archetype idea right now with a lot of promise. Some good blue/white cards in this set, and green is a great pair for those colors.
It seems to me that Ojutai is really good with Heliod, God of the Sun who is also good in a UW control deck cause you can sit back and fart out an army of 2/1s. With vigilance, Dragonlord Ojutai becomes a 5/4 hexproof flyer with card draw/filter for 5cmc. That seems pretty awesome in a good control deck. It might be a bit more low-to-the-ground than playing Ugin, but I think it's worth looking at.
Exactly. People tunnel vision on what's currently deemed "best in standard" until a Pro actual takes a new great idea to tournament.
I'm not looking to make Bant Walkers a thing, but between Kiora, Ajani's, Jace, Nissa, Narset, and Elspeth, I'm thinking that deck could be pretty good. Even Jace and Narset play well together. Ajani Mentor and Narset both dig for walkers... A lot of potential here.
I'd run Negates over Disdainful Strokes myself. Anything Stroke hits, you can hit with removal.
I would disagree. Countering Siege Rhino, or Hornet Queen is much better than letting them resolve. I prefer running both, but with the amount of aggro in the format I'm not sure that is a great idea. I prefer Stroke for most matchups.
Speaking of removal, there's a serious lack of Banishing Light here. Devouring Light is decent, but its miles better than Reality Shift which I think is horrible and I wouldn't even pick use it in Limited.
Reality Shift is a lot better than you think. Stormbreath Dragon, Sarkaan, any threat really including Gods, exiled away. The manifest is usually completely inconsequential. Mid-late game a 2/2 doesn't mean anything, and in 30 games I've had the actual manifest turn out bad like one time.[/quote]
This deck is screaming to run Elspeth in some capacity. Elspeth and Ajani on the board at the same time is way too hard to beat.
I like Elspeth, and I think she'd be very strong in a Bant shell alongside Ajani. I don't think this is that shell.[/quote]
I don't like Horizon Chimera at all, even if it does have flash.
I would agree that this is totally a flex spot. Right now, I've been trying the Chimera, and it's been good. Quite good surprisingly.
I actually do like Sagu Mauler in this deck, hexproof makes him extremely difficult to interact with. Prophet of Kruphix just seems clunky in a deck that isn't making use of ramp in any way. I'd cut it. Its a good card in UG ramp variants, but you're not ramping.
I agree, Mauler is a house. The thing about Prophet is she is nuts awesome in this deck. Warden pumps for days, she enables Fleecemane to swing and defend, she enables you to flash in creatures grabbed by Ajani... The list goes on. She is fantastic!
I don't know if this deck wants it, but Kiora is always a possibility, and if nothing else she replaces herself. If she sticks around and ults, then you've basically won.
I've been considering Kiora more lately, though how good she'll br in this version is questionable. I need more testing.
Resolute Archangel in the side can help stabilize against burn decks. You make them have to kill you twice, basically.
If you get to 7cmc. Getting that far is the problem.
I really, really question running blue at all without running any amount of Dig Through Time in the mainboard. If you're not going to do that, then drop blue entirely and just go G/W. That really is the best card blue has in standard right now, especially with its bad counterspells and bad creature selection. Its THE reason to play blue. Otherwise, you might as well not bother. Especially since you're running Weave Fate, which Dig is far superior to (You'll be casting it for 4 mana most of the time anyway)
I like Weave in this deck because it does what I need, I don't tap out, and it helps feed my hand. It's not "great", but it works great.
I think Reclamation Sage out of the sideboard is superior to Back to Nature. It only hits one, but you leave behind a 2/1 body that can trade with other creatures or get into the red zone with. You can also get rid of Perilous Vaults, which can totally wreck you if they resolve.
Again, with deck I'm trying to not tap out. ReSage and Erase were considerations. Back to Nature is cheap, and instant speed . Note the Sage will not do everything you were hoping for there.
2 Embodiment of Spring
4 Blisterpod
4 Skyrider Elf
1 Yasova Dragonclaw
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
3 Daghatar the Adamant
3 High Sentinels of Arashin
4 Woodland Wanderer
Spells (12)
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Crater's Claws
3 Radiant Flames
3 Temur Ascendancy
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Frontier Bivouac
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Prairie Stream
2 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
3 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Reality Shift
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Surge of Righteousness
1 Radiant Flames
I've been looking at this color combo in light of Temur Ascendancy, and the wonder card Radiant Flames. The build here aims to turn 2 hit Ascendancy, turn 3 Flames, turn 4 play a 6/6 haste vigilance trample and draw a card. Seems pretty good.
There are notable cards missing, but personally I don't like having double color cost cards in s 4color deck.
It's pretty clear that in general, Khans > Origins/BfZ. Between Rhino, Mantis Rider, Commands, Deathmist Protector (dare you to click it), and Ojutai, the cards are terribly strong. But I do think the metagame has room to grow. There are other powerful cards out there that people forget that got pushed out of last meta, that could easily come back. Every Surrak card from Khans seems forgotten, the Sidisi's, Butcher... And more. I feel like Wizards is trying to move away from "busted cards" territory with Origins and BfZ. They stumble with Jace and Hangerback, and BfZ they seemed to get right. There are some powerful cards, but nothing terribly busted. Gideon, maybe. But that's partly every one feeling the sting of Hero's Downfall exiting the scene.
Anyways, I'm still quite hopeful that there will be some good creativity to bring something different.
Reality Shift is a great tempo card. Conley Woods rated the card well, LSV hit it as a top five for constructed, and I would contend that when you have Den Protector, Deathmist Raptor and Haven Of The Spirit Dragon bringing guys back from the graveyard left and right, I would say that considering it as a possible sideboard card isn't out of the question. It also can hit opposing Ojutai's permanently, where as Encase cannot. If you hate the card, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a horrible card, or irrelevant as a potential sideboard card.
Is there something wrong with recommending Hornet Nest? It was a three-of in many sideboards of G/x/x decks.
Just bringing some thoughts and opinions. I do like your addition of one Whisperwood. Good to have in the main deck game 1 IMO.
Main board:
I'm not sure I love the Mystic/Caryatid/Courser package with Bant. Other than getting you through the early game, IMO it leaves the deck with so much fluff. I'm not 100% sure what I would change it to for this deck, but I think there is room for evolution with dropping Mystic particularly.
Sideboard:
Reality Shift > Encase in Ice. Particularly against the decks you need it, the mirror and Red Dragons. Against the mirror, exiling their Deathmist/Den Protector is HUGE game. Same is true for getting Thunderbreak's off the board so their abilities don't stack, and obviously Stormbreath. Instant speed 2cmc exile. The only downside is the manifest, which in my experience is largely not an issue. The odds are in favor of lands/spells and usually not creatures.
More a Hornet nest. It's just to good against any ground pound deck. Tokens, Red aggro, whatever deck is aggressive. I'd have 3 SB minimum.
Stubborn Denial < Negate. I'd swap Denial out . Too circumstantial, and is 2cmc really too much to keep up?
Other than that, I think Bant, with two fetchlands, has been seriously underrated for awhile. Good to see it hitting the mainstream.
Craig Wescoe Pro Tour Bant Deck
Below is Craig's 60
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Mastery of the Unseen
3 Valorous Stance
Lands 24
3 Flooded Strand
4 Forest
1 Island
2 Mana Confluence
2 Plains
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Windswept Heath
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Seeker of the Way
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Whisperwood Elemental
Spells (19)
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Valorous Stance
4 Anticipate
1 End Hostilities
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Dig Through Time
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Plenty
3 Windswept Heath
3 Yavimaya Coast
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Back to Nature
4 Negate
3 Hornet Nest
2 Ojutai's Command
2 End Hostilities
Setup like this the deck focuses on early aggression with some large threats for mid/late game. Anyone else considering Bant strategies?
Round 1 against aggressive decks, the deck is 50% if on the play. It's probably 40% against aggressive decks when on the draw. Post board, Hornet Nest is a house that aggro decks just can't beat.
Against control the deck is VERY disruptive and competitive game 1. You can easily play one threat at a time, and each needs answered on it's own. You can easily sit back on your countermagic and play "their" game, cause you run Dig as well. Counter their Digs, force them to one-for-one and so on. Probably 40-50% game 1, all depends on the draws. Post board, again the matchup improves significantly with a full set of Disdainful Stroke and Negate.
Against midrange, I'd say the deck is over 50% game 1 and on. Our threats are better (Sagu > Siege Rhino) and the hexproof makes the deck resilient to the host of removal. Always playing at EOT is difficult for the midrange decks to handle.
Here's my current list.
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Prophet of Kruphix
4 Sagu Mauler
Spells (19)
1 Back to Nature
2 Reality Shift
3 Negate
3 Valorous Stance
4 Anticipate
1 AEtherspouts
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Dig Through Time
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Plenty
3 Windswept Heath
3 Yavimaya Coast
1 Negate
1 Soulfire Grand Master
2 Back to Nature
2 Reality Shift
4 Disdainful Stroke
3 Hornet Nest
2 Aetherspouts
4 Warden of the First Tree
1 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 Prophet of Kruphix
4 Sagu Mauler
Spells (20)
1 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Negate
3 Reality Shift
3 Valorous Stance
4 Anticipate
1 Monastery Siege
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Dig Through Time
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Plenty
3 Windswept Heath
3 Yavimaya Coast
1 Reality Shift
2 Negate
2 Stratus Dancer
4 Disdainful Stroke
3 Banishing Light
3 Hornet Nest
The thought with my deck is keep a cheap early threat on the table, tap out on opponents end of turn to kill spell, counter, pump warden, anticipate, destroy. Then as the game progresses, use the hexproof creatures, Dig, Ajani and Prophet to out tempo them and overwhelm. It works well against midrange and control decks. Super fast aggro decks are the toughest matchup, but I'm still not sure how far to skew the deck for that matchup. Jeskai can be a tough competition, especially if you have Disdainful stroke main board (which I've pulled out because of how bad it is against aggro and Jeskai).
Overall, I like it and Anticipate was a HUGE upgrade for the deck idea. Helps you find the cards you need. You might notice too that I added quite a few 1-of's. I like having these in with Anticipate, because that card can level off the variance. Mastery is a no-brainer with Prophet doubling our mana, Elspeth gives us a decent wipe against big decks, and Monastary Siege is still in testing, while Soulfire Grand Master gives us more inevitability with the buy back of our 2cmc instants. Completely broken with Prophet in play.
Still considering lots of other cards. Looking at maybe dropping Prophet for Dragonlord Ojutai, and then fitting Brave The Sands into the deck somewhere. Seems like a pretty play with Fleecemane, Ojutai, and Sagu Mauler all with vigilance, can double block, and have hexproof.
I would answer #1 with, no. Ojutai needs vigilance to be worthwhile IMO. Hero's downfall, Stoke the Flames, Valorous Stance and Abzan Charm make that a certainty. Removal is too prevalent and too good. Their are 3 sources of vigilance that are constructed viable IMO, Ajani Steadfast, Heliod God of the Sun, Brave the Sands. The first two seem like solid plays in a constructed deck. The last could only be used if it's built around, which I'm pretty sure that this card is not worth it. If neither of cards 1 or 2 can make a decklist, then IMO Ojutai needs to stay on the sidelines.
With #2, with Ajani's, Jace, Kiora, Nissa, Narset and Elspeth, Bant super friends wouldn't need to be a super late game control deck with Ugin. There are quite a few combinations of walkers that can be great. For example, Ajani Steadfast into Nissa Worldwaker seems like a pretty good midrange play. A 5/5 trample vigilance first strike lifelink swing seems pretty good even against an opposing rhino. Maybe Nissa and Ojutai go in the same deck... I don't know, but there is a lot of room to explore with an awful lot of powerful walkers in Bant colors.
I think Bant is definitely a huge archetype idea right now with a lot of promise. Some good blue/white cards in this set, and green is a great pair for those colors.
Exactly. People tunnel vision on what's currently deemed "best in standard" until a Pro actual takes a new great idea to tournament.
I'm not looking to make Bant Walkers a thing, but between Kiora, Ajani's, Jace, Nissa, Narset, and Elspeth, I'm thinking that deck could be pretty good. Even Jace and Narset play well together. Ajani Mentor and Narset both dig for walkers... A lot of potential here.
Courser + Narset. This is a thing.
I would disagree. Countering Siege Rhino, or Hornet Queen is much better than letting them resolve. I prefer running both, but with the amount of aggro in the format I'm not sure that is a great idea. I prefer Stroke for most matchups.
Reality Shift is a lot better than you think. Stormbreath Dragon, Sarkaan, any threat really including Gods, exiled away. The manifest is usually completely inconsequential. Mid-late game a 2/2 doesn't mean anything, and in 30 games I've had the actual manifest turn out bad like one time.[/quote]
I like Elspeth, and I think she'd be very strong in a Bant shell alongside Ajani. I don't think this is that shell.[/quote]
I would agree that this is totally a flex spot. Right now, I've been trying the Chimera, and it's been good. Quite good surprisingly.
I agree, Mauler is a house. The thing about Prophet is she is nuts awesome in this deck. Warden pumps for days, she enables Fleecemane to swing and defend, she enables you to flash in creatures grabbed by Ajani... The list goes on. She is fantastic!
I've been considering Kiora more lately, though how good she'll br in this version is questionable. I need more testing.
If you get to 7cmc. Getting that far is the problem.
I like Weave in this deck because it does what I need, I don't tap out, and it helps feed my hand. It's not "great", but it works great.
Again, with deck I'm trying to not tap out. ReSage and Erase were considerations. Back to Nature is cheap, and instant speed . Note the Sage will not do everything you were hoping for there.