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- MasterFlex
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Member for 11 years, 2 months, and 15 days
Last active Sun, May, 31 2015 13:26:58
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- 229 Total Posts
- 32 Thanks
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Sep 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW MidrangeThanks. If the name continues to be well received, I'll unify it across the primer before we roll it out.Posted in: MasterFlex -
Sep 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW MidrangeGreat recommendations. I'll roll them in!Posted in: MasterFlex
I agree about the Hawks, btw. They have value, but I think sculler is really the better choice. There's been chatter about them on the current thread, so I'll throw them a bone. -
Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerBitterblossom is listed as an alternative token generator.Posted in: MasterFlex
BB trades immediate board impact for gradual dominance. It takes 3 turns (and 3 life) to produce as much as a spectral procession. In the early game, that's great, but in the mid to late game, that's not good. Couple that with the loss of life, while keeping in mind we also play shocklands, fetch lands, and thoughtseize, and BB can do as much to kill ourselves as our opponents. That's why it's not a core card.
It has been played successfully. I think (he can correct me if I'm wrong) Jango555 plays a BB list. -
Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerAll good suggestions, Thanks!Posted in: MasterFlex
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Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerThanks for the feedback! I fixed the spoilers (I never meant to remove then, but apparently if you mis-type a tag with this many tags on the page, you break them all). That "preview" button has become my best friend, lol.Posted in: MasterFlex
I'll update the matchups, and add Oring, fulminator mage, and pithing needle as sideboard options. -
Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token Primer*Edit* I fixed the spoiler tagsPosted in: MasterFlex
I'll re-write the core-creatures section to clarify that you don't need 3 Brimaz (or even 3 Hero). As I see it, you want to start with a hero/brimaz type of creature, and then grab a few from the "alternatives" section. Those provide a way to adapt to meta/personal play style.
I agree that Zealous Persecution should be added back to the event decklist (probably -2 doom blade, -1 anthem), and the 3 creatures should be an either/or. I leaned toward Brimaz because he's in Standard, but you are correct, Hero is better bang for the buck.
Good recommendation on not over extending, I'll add it to the advice section. Since we don't really draw, it is smart to only produce tokens as needed to win.
A featured deck list option is a good idea. It may get canned if there is not enough decks placing (or I can't keep up with it). -
Jun 18, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerNot sure what I did, but the spoiler tags are not working.Posted in: MasterFlex
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Jun 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerPosted in: MasterFlexQuote from Jango555 »I absolutely think Zealous Persecution is a core card...I would never play less then three copies in the main.
also I think that Tidehollow Sculler should be in the main deck section...maybe that is just personal opinion, but I think it is a key part of the deck even of you chose not to run him
Thanks for the work you put into this! We really needed to restart this thread...
Let me know if anything in particular sounds too bias. I want to be pretty neutral, but I'm not a pro-writer, so it's tough.
I'm keeping sculler in the alternatives for now. He's pretty controversial and we've spent a TON of time hammering his role down. As I put it, "skuller always risks being situational, which is why I list him as an alternative to Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek"
Quote from krimsonviper »
A few things I would change:
The second sentence in section 2 has "cards cards." Might want to fix that typo.
I would also say what amounts of each card to be considered for the deck, I.E. 2-4 Hero of Bladehold. Do not include any budget suggestions. Budget suggestions should be addressed as "we do not address budgeting" either verbally or just by not mentioning it. Allowing this can throw the deck thread of course. There's a budget forum for a reason. Though I know this is annoying having to point people into it's direction, it derails the fundamentals. In the MUs section, please include Burn, UWR Midrange, Gr Tron, all versions of Twin, UR Storm, and the mirror. Less "spoilers." I know it makes the thread nice and clean, but having to click on every single piece of the primer to read gets tiresome. Remove Zealous Persecution from the pictures at the top and maybe replace it with an actual core card. Having it there makes readers believe it's a core card when it's not.
Thanks for the feedback! Ultimately, the deck has TONS of optional cards, and I aim to address as many as possible, as almost all questions are "can I use this/what works in ____ match?". Can you think of ANY cards I failed to mention? I could probably throw a bone to Worship.
I fixed the typo, and scrubbed every use of the word "budget" (which I did only twice, actually). I understand the budget rule, but have never liked it, especially for a lower tier deck that I personally built due to budget. Anyway, that's a different topic.
Back on the subject of the prier: Zealous Persecution stays in the "Core" list, but I will use a different picture up top (mainly because I'm not a fan of the art). It is consistently recommended by the pro's, and appears in successful decklists.
I'll update the matches.
Can you recommend cards against Tron? I've honestly never played them.
I'll try cutting a few spoilers. Part of what they do is put heading info in the raw text of the spoiler. This thing is damn long, so having clear subdivisions is needed to make maintaining easier.
I did start off writing the number of each card you should play in the deck, but found that I was basically just telling people to build my deck (which isn't really right). Next, I listed a range, but found myself almost always typing "0-4", so instead, I listed amounts by category. I have gone back and added notes next to cards that are a mandatory 4x (lingering souls, etc).
Please be critical now, it's better to make modifications with the watchful eyes of a core group, then with the view of the whole forum. -
Feb 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on Standard DecksHere's the decklist, since it didn't publish for some reason.Posted in: MasterFlex
Jund MonstersMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Kalonian Hydra
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
Instants/Sorc
1 Hero's Downfall
3 DreadboreWalkers
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malic
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 SwampSideboard
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Golgari Charm
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Unravel the Aether
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Gruul Charm
To finish the deck, I still need: 2 temples of malice, 2 mizzium mortars, 1 golgari charm
Need: 1 Scourge, 1 Nykthos, 1 stormbreath (puts my total count to 4), 2 legion's initiative (if I like it)
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2 Hero of Bladehold
Spells
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Lingering Souls
Buffs
2 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Elspeth Tirel
1 Sorin Solemn Visitor
Lands
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Torpor Orb
2 Disenchant (blood moon)
3 Leyline of Sanctity
The deck has been performing very well, and I do think tokens is viable competitively. The issue comes from the deck's fairness. We are not a unique/difficult to fight strategy (like infect or living end), we don't draw, we don't combo, we don't over abuse card synergy (Tron, Unburial Gifts). We are cheap though. If you roll without Bitterblossom or Liliana, you can build the deck for under $500. Thoughtseize, Sorin, and fetch lands are in standard and easy to get traded. Everything else is in the event deck. For an enthusiast like me, the deck is GREAT. From the view point of a very competitive player with a $1000+ dollar budget, why not just run twin, with more draw effects, an instant win combo, and a bolt+snap+bolt backup plan?
TL:DR - Tokens can beat anything out there, but not as consistently as the tier one crowd. If you like the playstyle, and don't want a $1000+ deck, it's a great option.
Side note: If we got something silly, like 1W "draw a card, get a 1/1 flying spirit", or a white BB that doesn't hurt you, this deck might push to tier one.
I'm pretty sure I said that in the primer "Run the hattiest hate possible", lol. Anyway, my side, and explanations
Rest in Peace Storm, Living End (which I think could see more play)
Stony Silence Affinity, Tron
Aven Mindcensor Amulet Bloom, Scapeshift (I like this one, because it's very rarely used)
Torpor Orb Twin, random jank like Elves and Soul Sisters
Disenchant Affinity, Boggles (I chose this over sundering growth because of blood moon)
Leyline of Sanctity Burn
Keep in mind that sideboards are also mildly tempered by the main. I main 6 discard, and 8 removal, so I don't have thoughtseize effects in my sideboard.
I think angels grace is a cute trick. It's at least worth a shot, although I think you'd be better off with Runed Halo naming valakut, splinter twin, lightning bolt, grapeshot, etc. The split second trick is definitely something Runed Halo lacks.
I think Liliana of the Veil may edge her way in over the Torpor Orb. I currently have little to no game against boggles, and control shells have had good results recently, too. Liliana really shines in the control match.
As for the primer, it's in very good condition. Considering how little we grew in the TC days, the primer is pretty darn extensive. If you regularly follow the board, play the deck competitively, and have a good grasp of all the deck/card tagging tools, shoot me a PM.
As for the primer, it's in very good condition. It's one of the most expansive of any Teir 2 or under deck. If you regularly follow the board, play the deck competitively, and have a good grasp of all the deck/card tagging tools, shoot me a PM.
I was referring to an an article a month after in which Wescoe talks about playing BW Midrange. There was alot of chatter on the forum, "is this a new direction for tokens", etc. It's definitely a different deck.
This article isn't even about Modern...
Anyway, I'm not saying Windbrisk is an auto include, but it is definitely recommended.
Kovo summed up the PW/Hero conversation. I will amend that Elspeth Tirel is an army in a can, and her other abilities will crush your opponent if you already have tokens in play. She can recover a bad board state. If Jund makes a come back, she's pretty darn good in that match.
I disagree. Auriok is a horrible top deck, and gaining life != winning. Gaining a bit of life can allow you to set up the win, and having anti-red in the main is a solid call. I think 3x is sufficient.
On the subject of Stony Silence. It's not leaving my SB anytime soon. It just stops Affinity too hard. It's a tough match. They have like 40+ threats (I mean their land can kill you for !@#$ sake). Sundering Growth kills 1 threat. While you definitely need a disenchant equivalent in your side (for all those additional applications you mentioned), you'll need it + silence to really deal with Affinity. I originally started running Engineered Explosives and Hour of Reckoning in my mainboard to combat affinity (and recently delver). Despite the bannings, I'm probably going to keep my 60 the same for a bit. I'm curious to see how it does against a shift back toward control/midrange.
I could see O-ring being a good option now. I've never had room, but I may be a better choice than EE or Hour.
of play), as they rarely run more than 1 or 2 basic lands, so the GQ's are more like Strip Mine.
I would not run Go For the Throat. If you know Tron is a threat (and Affinity probably will be, too), it's not a great choice. You probably want Murderous Cut, Slaughter Pact, or something weird, like Engineered Explosives. I don't recommend 1 off's, so I'd cut the Liliana, and either trim an anthem or the sword, as you have ample anthem effects.
I think Slaughter Games is one of the best options for a red splash. An uncounterable memoricide is just crushing to combo decks. Personally, for game 1, I think it's important to have too much thoughtseize, rather than too little. Thoughtseize is proactive removal (as mentioned above), so it can crush a deck game 1, then be boarded out game 2/3 if there's a better card. I'd find a place for it in the main, or just cut it from the side, as you already have 6 equivalents.
On as side note, I'm not sure 4x Lightning Bolt is mandatory in this build. It's a good card, but doesn't have any synergy without Snapcaster or Young Pyromancer.
I agree with removing the BB for Timely Reinforcements. I played it a full year before TC was printed, and it works. In a Mardu list, you will shock in lands, and you will thoughtseize. Odds are you're opponent will drop a mana dork, or Bob, and you'll hit both modes. I don't think I'd put something as simple as Dismember in the side (you have a TON) of removal. You probably want Rest in Peace in the sideboard. It's still pretty darn handy.
I'll just bold my previous comment. There's also section 2 of the primer. If folks are still confused (I know occasionally we all have trouble with words), I've included a visual guide. The cards pictured in the banner of the primer are the core cards, too
You should really go back a page and read my post...
Because this is what happens every time someone posts a "here's a list, what do you think" post. *facepalm*
Anyway,
I updated the primer. Check it out. I'll start adding cards to the splashes section as time allows. I'll also add a "change log" so we can keep up with what's new.
Neither is one...
I opened the floodgates to splash discussion because the core of BW tokens is firmly agreed upon, but has been lacking consistent results. I hoped discussing splashes could give the deck an edge against the Khans meta aggro. Khans also brought in new fetchlands, giving us potential to improve the mana base of a splash. Previously, splashes had been too taxing to the base, and didn't actually help the deck. I played Abzan tokens a year and half ago, and it stunk. Going forward, splashes do need to get some serious consideration, even if we eventually opt away from them.
With that said, the new B&R announcement gives us much to discuss. No Birthing Pod will shake things up, and many of us have tilted our mainboards with cards like Auriok Champion, Relic of Progenitus and Timely Reinforcements to fight Delver. There are also new cards to discuss and try, like Monastery Mentor. We should not get carried away discussing splashes.
I will be adding a "Splashes" section to the primer. If you're posting a slash deck, please conform to these guidelines.
1) We all agree that the core of the deck is Lingering Souls, Spectral Procession, Anthems, Thoughtseize effects, and Path to Exile. If your Mardu/Abzan lists don't include the core, I call that a brew, not a splash.
2) We're dipping our toes into unproven territory. If you're presenting a splash list, please don't just say, "what do ya'll think about this list" without first providing your explanation of the card choices. Questions of that nature (without justification) are what causes a spiral of non sequitur comments.
3) Discussing the merits of a single splash card (Slaughter Games, Hide // Seek) is fine, assuming you post your opinion of the card first.
I understand that ideal isn't always possible. We do have the ability to play like a midrange deck, control and grind down our opponents, then push with a Hero of Bladehold, or similar, to win. Playing a midrange style is not recommended unless you have no other option. Often against aggro decks, I find myself having to play as a control or midrange deck. Often turn 3 tokens are just too little, too late. I have to invest an extra turn or two into clearing my opponents threats.
Compared to major mid range strategies, this deck can't keep up on card draw alone. Abzan Midrange, Jund, and WUR all have card draw engines to keep their hands full that we just lack. Fortunately, we actually have an advantage against midrange decks. We produce a high volume of threats very quickly, which is difficult for them to control efficiently, causing their "push for a long game" strategy to fail. If you want to see a pure BW Midrange deck, we have a forum for that too (and I also wrote its primer).
I think discussing splashes is fine. I think it furthers the evolution of the deck. As I mentioned in my previous post, we've discussed pure BW token lists pretty endlessly, and not made any headway on producing an "ideal" list. I also think our list and analysis of all available BW token cards is as complete as possible.
I do think we need more structure in how we discuss splashes. I'd like to add a splash section to the primer. Please PM me cards that need to be added to the list. I've run BWg tokens, but never BWr.