The deck is most definitely missing something, always has. I've tested so many versions with different sometimes ridiculous cards, and it always seems that one aspect will improve while another takes a step back. Why not work on a general consensus of what the deck is most lacking, and figure out if there is anything that can be done to improve its shortcomings. I do believe, that even in the current meta, that there is some build of this deck that will work. So, what are the biggest problems with 8 rack? My list consists of,
#Stalling out/bad top decking
#Lack of draw/options
#not being able to close out the game fast enough
#leyline of sanctity
Does anyone else see any fatal flaws, or does this about cover it?
The deck is most definitely missing something, always has. I've tested so many versions with different sometimes ridiculous cards, and it always seems that one aspect will improve while another takes a step back. Why not work on a general consensus of what the deck is most lacking, and figure out if there is anything that can be done to improve its shortcomings. I do believe, that even in the current meta, that there is some build of this deck that will work. So, what are the biggest problems with 8 rack? My list consists of,
#Stalling out/bad top decking
#Lack of draw/options
#not being able to close out the game fast enough
#leyline of sanctity
Does anyone else see any fatal flaws, or does this about cover it?
The deck is most definitely missing something, always has. I've tested so many versions with different sometimes ridiculous cards, and it always seems that one aspect will improve while another takes a step back. Why not work on a general consensus of what the deck is most lacking, and figure out if there is anything that can be done to improve its shortcomings. I do believe, that even in the current meta, that there is some build of this deck that will work. So, what are the biggest problems with 8 rack? My list consists of,
#Stalling out/bad top decking
#Lack of draw/options
#not being able to close out the game fast enough
#leyline of sanctity
Does anyone else see any fatal flaws, or does this about cover it?
I think the answers to improving this deck exist in the legacy pool of cards. Which is why it's not moving very far forward in the modern format.
Edit: I haven't been playing much and am not up to date with current ban list.
Thoughts are to change 2 funeral charm and 2 despise/duress to thoughtsieze and hypnotic spectre to master of the feast or tomb stalker. Cabal therapy also seems like it should be in there somewhere.
Ideally to turbo out waste not and a discard turn one with dark ritual. Pack rat turns bad top decks into a creature and to control the game with discard. win through creature damage, rack effects.
Keep in mind I'm mainly interested in your final opinion, not the arguments for it, because what you think is indisputable and sound logic may seem completely unreasonable and and inviable to me and vice versa.
"It depends on how many and which creatures you are running" is implied, you don't need to say that. It's also somethng I'm interested to know and can extrapolate from a simple 3-letter answer.
I love it. I run 3-4 main.
That being said now is the time to rebrew this deck and for me bridge may go Sb if I put more creatures in.
Maybe ensnaring bridge if you go to a more creature orientated build? I'll prob try it out if I get a chance and see how it goes. I'll report back if/when I get around to it.
Is it worth looking at a build that somehow incorporates both pack rat and hypnotic specter? especially in builds with waste not.
Gives something that can block flyers, or create continuous discard on an open board. Thoughts anyone? And finally has this been discussed and rejected before? cause I don't remember.
Right now I think this will be were I develop my Smallpox version of the deck. That will open me up to playing different choices than the non budget version.
I think small pox builds are where it's at. I'm running two at the moment and it's been pretty effective.
I seem to run out of gas mid to late game. Is it reasonable to add a set of draw Cards like Sign in Blood or Read the Bones?
Yes but often the list runs pretty tight, so what will you take out to add those cards in? That is where the main issue is with adding draw into this deck.
I run two sign in blood in my current sideboard which I think is better than read the bones due to cheaper cmc.
I often will side them in when I don't need creature removal.
Hello folks. Been reading for a while but not everything. Has anyone done testing with scrying sheets and snow swamps yet. Seems like a good way to filter through lands, get less dead draws, trigger raven's crime more(especially relevant with TC), and open up room for a safer pox play or heavier cost cards. I dunno if people tried it or not.
I have, it's not the path to glory.
On another note, I'm thinking of going back up to 2 small pox. I have been running 1 recently and it's been killing it in The current meta, there was a number of times that I wish I had another.
I play a legacy version the deck. But from my experience of that I would say you need as a shell:
4 death's shadow
4 varolz
4 hunted horror
4 topor orb
2-4 fauna shaman
4 grisly salvage
Hunted horror/topor orb combo is fantastic in this deck plus it does double duty shutting down a number of popular decks in modern (pod/twin/hatebears) hunted is also great scavenger fuel.
Also if you keep the mana curve low you can treat your landbase very similar to stompy. For example varolz being the only 3cmc cards in deck. Duress or similar can be good for pulling out kills spells or other cards that might ruin your plan. You probably need a few removal spells smother whilst limited is 2cmc or that other kill spells everyone uses which is 1 colourless and 2 black phyrexian.
Treetop village fits better than inkmoth nexus, but I prefer the latter because it can steal games very quickly or force opponents to make hard choices about what to block if you have multiple attacking creatures.
So played my first games against treasure cruise the other day. Won both game one and two.
Second game I had to ult bitterblossom with lilli to stop myself from loosing. Stabilised at 1 life... The other guy was plays some u/g big creature ramp thing with bounce his own creature shenanigans. Bridge won the game until he ran out of gas and racks/ afflictions finished him off. I can def see how pack rat can be better than bb.
Obviously repeatable discard helps against treasure cruise, I'm wondering if necrogen mists AND lilli might both be needed to improve the deck against that card. Thoughts?
Cut discard, go for targeted kill eg smother to clear the board
Fauna shaman and grisly salvage and great for this deck, especially for getting stuff into the graveyard and getting varolz. Topor orb is good, especially of you also play hunted horror, as it does double duty for it and dreadnought whilst cutting off opponents creatures.
To be fair, man lands are strictly better. However I don't play much any more and when I do it's normally pretty casual, maybe once a month sometimes less. I do almost exclusively play at my lgs however.
I have about 60 games with this deck, when I was playing weekly. 20 or so with current mana base and I haven't had any real issues. If I started playing more I would definitely consider upgrading to urbog and man lands. The one 'advantage' leech has over man lands is that it's fairly non interactive for the other side, so it makes it just a little harder for them to play land shenanigans on you.
The single biggest issue I have ever had was land flooding without seeing a ravens crime, which has happened two or three times using the current 'classic build' but with hymn to tourach instead of wrench mind and BB. I am thinking of trying out pack rat as it seems pretty sweet.
I started this deck originally as a budget legacy brew, a little before memory lapse wrote the original primer and many of his ideas were fantastic and so over time I evolved my version of the deck to one that is pretty similar to the classic contained in that thread. I generally keep an eye on the development of this deck as I really like it. My original version had a few more lands, and included haunting echoes and null brooch and was about as slow as a control deck could be. It also wasn't nearly as good as the current 8 rack, which I might add does pretty well in legacy with just a few card changes.
This deck rocks. I love playing this deck as it's so much fun when you playing the other dude and he can see that he is unable to do anything once you strip his head and have the lock down. The number of games where the other guy is totally locked out and they are saying 'maaaaaaan this deck is nasty' whilst laughing as they get owned is pretty awesome.
I usually play casual and so have 4 hymn to tourach, which is a work horse in this deck. I also prefer duress over thought seize as the life loss is often relevant for games I play.
The other change I have is mostly basic lands, as there are a number of blood moon players in my area so this deck doesn't fold to them as easily as the guys with really greedy 3,4 colour land-bases (surprisingly many near me...).
I know leechridden has been dismissed before, but I find it can help in a slow game once you have it locked down.
I think the main trick to this deck is knowing all the main meta decks in your meta and generally having a good sense of what should be primary targets for discard should be.
I think the answers to improving this deck exist in the legacy pool of cards. Which is why it's not moving very far forward in the modern format.
Edit: I haven't been playing much and am not up to date with current ban list.
Would like to invite your comments and suggestions.
Thoughts are to change 2 funeral charm and 2 despise/duress to thoughtsieze and hypnotic spectre to master of the feast or tomb stalker. Cabal therapy also seems like it should be in there somewhere.
Ideally to turbo out waste not and a discard turn one with dark ritual. Pack rat turns bad top decks into a creature and to control the game with discard. win through creature damage, rack effects.
I love it. I run 3-4 main.
That being said now is the time to rebrew this deck and for me bridge may go Sb if I put more creatures in.
Gives something that can block flyers, or create continuous discard on an open board. Thoughts anyone? And finally has this been discussed and rejected before? cause I don't remember.
I think small pox builds are where it's at. I'm running two at the moment and it's been pretty effective.
Yes but often the list runs pretty tight, so what will you take out to add those cards in? That is where the main issue is with adding draw into this deck.
I run two sign in blood in my current sideboard which I think is better than read the bones due to cheaper cmc.
I often will side them in when I don't need creature removal.
I have, it's not the path to glory.
On another note, I'm thinking of going back up to 2 small pox. I have been running 1 recently and it's been killing it in The current meta, there was a number of times that I wish I had another.
4 death's shadow
4 varolz
4 hunted horror
4 topor orb
2-4 fauna shaman
4 grisly salvage
Hunted horror/topor orb combo is fantastic in this deck plus it does double duty shutting down a number of popular decks in modern (pod/twin/hatebears) hunted is also great scavenger fuel.
Also if you keep the mana curve low you can treat your landbase very similar to stompy. For example varolz being the only 3cmc cards in deck. Duress or similar can be good for pulling out kills spells or other cards that might ruin your plan. You probably need a few removal spells smother whilst limited is 2cmc or that other kill spells everyone uses which is 1 colourless and 2 black phyrexian.
Treetop village fits better than inkmoth nexus, but I prefer the latter because it can steal games very quickly or force opponents to make hard choices about what to block if you have multiple attacking creatures.
If you go hunted horror, torpor orb is a must so you can use it either way without helping your opponent.
So played my first games against treasure cruise the other day. Won both game one and two.
Second game I had to ult bitterblossom with lilli to stop myself from loosing. Stabilised at 1 life... The other guy was plays some u/g big creature ramp thing with bounce his own creature shenanigans. Bridge won the game until he ran out of gas and racks/ afflictions finished him off. I can def see how pack rat can be better than bb.
Obviously repeatable discard helps against treasure cruise, I'm wondering if necrogen mists AND lilli might both be needed to improve the deck against that card. Thoughts?
Cut discard, go for targeted kill eg smother to clear the board
Fauna shaman and grisly salvage and great for this deck, especially for getting stuff into the graveyard and getting varolz. Topor orb is good, especially of you also play hunted horror, as it does double duty for it and dreadnought whilst cutting off opponents creatures.
O_0 I will
To be fair, man lands are strictly better. However I don't play much any more and when I do it's normally pretty casual, maybe once a month sometimes less. I do almost exclusively play at my lgs however.
I have about 60 games with this deck, when I was playing weekly. 20 or so with current mana base and I haven't had any real issues. If I started playing more I would definitely consider upgrading to urbog and man lands. The one 'advantage' leech has over man lands is that it's fairly non interactive for the other side, so it makes it just a little harder for them to play land shenanigans on you.
The single biggest issue I have ever had was land flooding without seeing a ravens crime, which has happened two or three times using the current 'classic build' but with hymn to tourach instead of wrench mind and BB. I am thinking of trying out pack rat as it seems pretty sweet.
I started this deck originally as a budget legacy brew, a little before memory lapse wrote the original primer and many of his ideas were fantastic and so over time I evolved my version of the deck to one that is pretty similar to the classic contained in that thread. I generally keep an eye on the development of this deck as I really like it. My original version had a few more lands, and included haunting echoes and null brooch and was about as slow as a control deck could be. It also wasn't nearly as good as the current 8 rack, which I might add does pretty well in legacy with just a few card changes.
I usually play casual and so have 4 hymn to tourach, which is a work horse in this deck. I also prefer duress over thought seize as the life loss is often relevant for games I play.
The other change I have is mostly basic lands, as there are a number of blood moon players in my area so this deck doesn't fold to them as easily as the guys with really greedy 3,4 colour land-bases (surprisingly many near me...).
2 darkmor salvage
2 buried ruin
2 leechridden swamp
16 basic swamp.
I know leechridden has been dismissed before, but I find it can help in a slow game once you have it locked down.
I think the main trick to this deck is knowing all the main meta decks in your meta and generally having a good sense of what should be primary targets for discard should be.