When considering this card for my Cube I compared it to Bygone Bishop (which I run as part of an Aluren package) and decided I like Bishop more. I still like this card and it seems lovely in a themed Cube, but at this point cards like Thraben Inspector or Staff of the Storyteller look way better. Though at the rate they are printing legendary creatures now it probably won't be too long before this becomes a borderline staple...
It can snowball as hard, but Oko is a much more complete planeswalker because he's cheaper, has a higher starting loyalty / loyalty gain, has tools to disrupt the opponent, and doesn't have an Achille's Heel to Lightning Bolt / Incinerate effects. M&B is more of a glass cannon while Oko has no real glaring weakness.
Calling this card a glass cannon is a little ridiculous. Is Goblin Rabblemaster a glass cannon? Countering Minsc and Boo is a good deal, Bolting it still leaves them with a 1/1. You are not exactly putting all your eggs in one basket by paying 2RG for a card that will at best be traded with 1 for 1 (even if the answer is cheaper). As far as worst-case scenarios go, that really isn't bad at all.
And in any non-worst case scenario, this card is absolutely bonkers. Oko/Dack/Jace are all totally fine in my environment, but this is another level entirely. I can't say I'm looking forward to what cards they end up making for Gandalf or Saruman.
This card is too strong. I could probably get past the whole different Universes thing, but this power level is just obnoxious even compared to other Cube staples (at least in an unpowered Cube like mine). This makes an all-timer like Bloodbraid Elf look pathetic, not sure I'm ready for that.
Cadaverous Bloom I see as a pure combo card, worth trying if you are deep into Storm.
Squandered Resources is far more versatile and has strong (even busted) interactions with lots of my favorite Cube Cards, namely those that blow up all the lands. Resources into Balance, Death Cloud, Jokulhaups or Wildfires is hilarious and super powerful, the main problem is making the mana work. I used to run it in my Cube but ultimately decided to cut it as I wasn't supporting Storm (which is another deck it would be good in), making it a little too narrow for my tastes.
I agree that Izzet Charm, Abrade and Collective Brutality are all great Cube cards. Something they all have in common is that they cost 2 mana to remove a card, which is an acceptable rate, just like the Quench and Naturalize example from before. While the specific effects are overcosted, in practice countering something with Quench or Counterspell doesn't make a difference, when it's live it works all the same. Obviously Counterspell is way better because it always works, but the rate is the same. Killing something with the red X-spell will usually cost a disproportionate amount of mana. It's flexible, but not efficient mana-wise.
What function does a Reach Through Mists have? It gets you closer to the relevant cards in your deck when the land isn't what you want. With these new cards, you're banking that the spell part is something that is actually useful, and I think often it won't be, because it's so inefficient or narrow. I think for example Censor is several leagues better than the dual type version because it has actual relevance in the late game, covering the spell part's main weakness. Cycling is a proven great mechanic, and I think this new one can be great too (even for Cube) but only if the spell sides are efficient enough.
That being said, it seems pretty obvious nobody's switching sides here Time will tell!
- The 'you get both' aspect of manlands and utility lands continues to be significantly undervalued, imo. These cards are often actual sources of card advantage because you don't have to choose (see Shelldock Isle). You make land drops, trade resources with the opponent, and parity is eventually broken because your lands still do something relevant. These new dual types can only mirror part of that, making them significantly worse in a lot of scenarios.
- I think most would agree that save a few exceptions, the spell sides of these dual type cards aren't really cubable because they are not powerful enough (and obviously not the land part by itself either). Thus the power present in the card comes solely from the flexibility, the increase in keepable hands, the mitigating the risk of flooding out. But will including cards like these in your deck lead to more wins? Not necessarily. You'll keep more hands, and also play more monocolored tapped lands and overcosted spells, which are real costs well proven to lose games.
- There is actual precedent for these cards (or pretty damn close to it), and I don't really understand the aversion to compare the two. Lonely Sandbar is either a tapped Island, or a Reach Through Mists. Yes, you lose Island synergy and it doesn't count as a spell, which makes it a little worse (though you do get the actually great Loam interaction). Reach Through Mists is overcosted by 1 to be cubable, a tax I've seen here advertised as reasonable. Who runs Lonely Sandbar? I actually really like the card, but a tapped Island instead of an untapped one is such a huge liability that they don't make it.
- This part comes more down to how you look at Cube as a format. I think of my Cube as a way of drafting things that look like Constructed decks, where others have described Cube as closer to retail Limited with nothing but Bombs. I just can't see these cards making waves in the formats I mirror my Cube to, Modern and Legacy. Decks are crazy consistent, and efficiency is king. This is what I want for my Cube, and I know others don't want that, but it explains why these double types will likely never make it in my Cube (save those where the spell side is Constructed worthy by itself). They simply can't play an essential role in the decks I try to draft, these slick Constructed-like killing machines.
- Similar to my last point, in Limited consistency is worth a lot. In Constructed I feel you have to actually do something powerful, and games end way more often with one player holding a bunch of irrelevant cards. I've found especially in recent years that board advantage is crucial in Cube (power creep and especially planeswalkers have contributed to this), and to get board advantage you need to be fast, or strong. These cards are neither, as they are always slow (tapped or overcosted) and the spell side is weak by design.
I've found this whole discussion somewhat frustrating as I seem pretty fully convinced of my side of it, and it looks like the other side feels the same way. Maybe my Cube (and how I think about Cube in general) has evolved in a completely different direction, and therefore I operate with a different set of values. Nonetheless I think there's some value in trying to explain why I think these cards aren't nearly as good as advertised by some, simply because it's the opposite viewpoint compared to that shared by many.
That's because Red Aggro is far better than Green Aggro, and aggro one-drops are more important than aggro three-drops. Green's best thing to do will always be ramp, as as much damage as the Mammoth does, it's still an awkward (though not impossible) fit there. A red Steppe Lynx is seriously bonkers, looks more like a Modern Horizons printing or something.
Best card in the set. In my environment (with multiple fetches) second only to Goblin Guide when it comes to red one-drops. This thing is going to win a LOT of games.
I think Worn Powerstone, Hedron Archive, Thran Dynamo and Gilded Lotus are all substantially better than this card (obviously Coalition Relic is also many levels stronger). Just an unacceptable rate in both modes, and what good does indestructible do if it's a rock so bad no one would kill it? When it comes to my Manaliths, I much prefer Chromatic Lantern; when I'm drafting Artifact Ramp decks I tend to get less land fixing because I'm assembling many Mana Rocks, and Lantern allows me to more easily cast the few colored spells that are often spread across many colors (think Balance + Wildfire + Tezzeret Agent of Bolas, or Golos). Lantern is also fantastic with the best lands in the deck, Mishra's Workshop and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
I must say I'm very intrigued how these lands will pan out. I often disagree with forum users about the power level of cards (and usually, I think a card is less good than people say it is), but seldom to this extent. I'd play one of these cards only if the spell side was playable in its own right, like I think Quench and Naturalize are. If it's not a decent rate, I don't see it. The green creature for instance is probably pretty good (the 3/3 landfall) because I'd gladly play that on its own, making the land part pure upside. But a three mana Regrowth? I also think Cycling is better than the ability to play something as a tapped land, because often neither a land or the spell is good enough! And I see that happening a LOT with these cards, a monocolor land that ETB tapped is awful and the spell side is overcosted. I'm so far on the other side of this argument that it's getting pretty lonely
Let's leave the obvious Forgotten Cave comparison for a bit, and compare these cards to an actual Cube all-star: Karakas. It's always an untapped land, never costs you life (3 life is a TON) and has an actual (not always, but often) insane effect stapled onto it! I love Karakas way more than most, and I just don't see how these cards even stack up remotely to a land like that. In fact, you can make a similar case for pretty much all of the commonly played utility lands in Cube, these actually have desirable effects and you still play them as a land first, you get both!
The consensus seems to be that this is the best one, but even here I don't see it. Are cube decks really so inconsistent that versatility trumps everything? This has three modes, but they are all terrible. We don't play every Charm ever printed either do we? When it comes to increasing the consistency of my Cube decks, I much prefer more cantrips. Tormenting Voice for instance is a card that I consider very underrated. I think this card is playable but will prove to be underwhelming, just like the others of its kind.
5C Selfmill/Lands
1 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Llanowar Visionary
1 Lovestruck Beast
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Omnath, Locus of Creation
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Explore
1 Grisly Salvage
1 Winding Way
1 Lingering Souls
1 Felidar Retreat
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Unburial Rites
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Finale of Devastation
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Golgari Bicycle Land*
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
40
Calling this card a glass cannon is a little ridiculous. Is Goblin Rabblemaster a glass cannon? Countering Minsc and Boo is a good deal, Bolting it still leaves them with a 1/1. You are not exactly putting all your eggs in one basket by paying 2RG for a card that will at best be traded with 1 for 1 (even if the answer is cheaper). As far as worst-case scenarios go, that really isn't bad at all.
And in any non-worst case scenario, this card is absolutely bonkers. Oko/Dack/Jace are all totally fine in my environment, but this is another level entirely. I can't say I'm looking forward to what cards they end up making for Gandalf or Saruman.
Squandered Resources is far more versatile and has strong (even busted) interactions with lots of my favorite Cube Cards, namely those that blow up all the lands. Resources into Balance, Death Cloud, Jokulhaups or Wildfires is hilarious and super powerful, the main problem is making the mana work. I used to run it in my Cube but ultimately decided to cut it as I wasn't supporting Storm (which is another deck it would be good in), making it a little too narrow for my tastes.
What function does a Reach Through Mists have? It gets you closer to the relevant cards in your deck when the land isn't what you want. With these new cards, you're banking that the spell part is something that is actually useful, and I think often it won't be, because it's so inefficient or narrow. I think for example Censor is several leagues better than the dual type version because it has actual relevance in the late game, covering the spell part's main weakness. Cycling is a proven great mechanic, and I think this new one can be great too (even for Cube) but only if the spell sides are efficient enough.
That being said, it seems pretty obvious nobody's switching sides here
- The 'you get both' aspect of manlands and utility lands continues to be significantly undervalued, imo. These cards are often actual sources of card advantage because you don't have to choose (see Shelldock Isle). You make land drops, trade resources with the opponent, and parity is eventually broken because your lands still do something relevant. These new dual types can only mirror part of that, making them significantly worse in a lot of scenarios.
- I think most would agree that save a few exceptions, the spell sides of these dual type cards aren't really cubable because they are not powerful enough (and obviously not the land part by itself either). Thus the power present in the card comes solely from the flexibility, the increase in keepable hands, the mitigating the risk of flooding out. But will including cards like these in your deck lead to more wins? Not necessarily. You'll keep more hands, and also play more monocolored tapped lands and overcosted spells, which are real costs well proven to lose games.
- There is actual precedent for these cards (or pretty damn close to it), and I don't really understand the aversion to compare the two. Lonely Sandbar is either a tapped Island, or a Reach Through Mists. Yes, you lose Island synergy and it doesn't count as a spell, which makes it a little worse (though you do get the actually great Loam interaction). Reach Through Mists is overcosted by 1 to be cubable, a tax I've seen here advertised as reasonable. Who runs Lonely Sandbar? I actually really like the card, but a tapped Island instead of an untapped one is such a huge liability that they don't make it.
- This part comes more down to how you look at Cube as a format. I think of my Cube as a way of drafting things that look like Constructed decks, where others have described Cube as closer to retail Limited with nothing but Bombs. I just can't see these cards making waves in the formats I mirror my Cube to, Modern and Legacy. Decks are crazy consistent, and efficiency is king. This is what I want for my Cube, and I know others don't want that, but it explains why these double types will likely never make it in my Cube (save those where the spell side is Constructed worthy by itself). They simply can't play an essential role in the decks I try to draft, these slick Constructed-like killing machines.
- Similar to my last point, in Limited consistency is worth a lot. In Constructed I feel you have to actually do something powerful, and games end way more often with one player holding a bunch of irrelevant cards. I've found especially in recent years that board advantage is crucial in Cube (power creep and especially planeswalkers have contributed to this), and to get board advantage you need to be fast, or strong. These cards are neither, as they are always slow (tapped or overcosted) and the spell side is weak by design.
I've found this whole discussion somewhat frustrating as I seem pretty fully convinced of my side of it, and it looks like the other side feels the same way. Maybe my Cube (and how I think about Cube in general) has evolved in a completely different direction, and therefore I operate with a different set of values. Nonetheless I think there's some value in trying to explain why I think these cards aren't nearly as good as advertised by some, simply because it's the opposite viewpoint compared to that shared by many.
Thieving Skydiver
Nighthawk Scavenger
Akoum Hellhound
(good)
Skyclave Apparition
Inscription of Insight
Bloodchief's Thirst
Kargan Intimidator
Valakut Awakening
Kazandu Mammoth
modal DFC pathway lands
(fringe)
Fearless Fledgling
Emeria's Call
Luminarch Aspirant
Maul of the Skyclaves
Deliberate
Jace, Mirror Mage
Nullpriest of Oblivion
Skyclave Shade
Fissure Wizard
Magmatic Channeler
Shatterskull Smashing
Turntimber Symbiosis
Grakmaw, Skyclave Ravager