> “RC doesnt follow it’s own criteria”
> Provides criteria as evidence that it isn’t followed.
> Criteria literally specifies that cards exactly like CV will be banned.
Good job.
So before you say that Exapropriate is the same, like Loucypher said, there’s nothing in it’s text that says it just wins. It’s floor is certainly high since at worst you get an extra turn and three lands, at which point you essentially casted a fused timewarp and explosive vegetation. However, even in its better scenarios you will generally still be playing after it resolves, allowing you choices where you don’t just lose.
CVs literal text is “you win the game”, how does it not automatically win on resolution?
Anyways besides it blatantly interacting poorly with the format, theres also the point you seem to be opting to ignore that it would create undesirable game states. How? Because everytime a 5c deck gets its five typed lands or its commander in play everyone will just be focused on stopping the CV. So sure, the odds of CV actually resolving might be low due to removal and counters, but its legality would work as a pseudo Karakas only for 5c decks.
Also, again, CV is literally the only card in all of mtg that wins solely by resolving AND is aided by edhs rules. Everything else needs something happening after the original card resolves.
> card that wins just by playing edh requires skill.
> card that needs the caster to make at least 3 choices out multiple options and also needs decision making from the opponents does not require any skill.
Isn't there already a thread on CV? Also, I'm not sure how you're actually able to claim that playing shocklands/basics and dropping your commander is a lot of set up.
OP posted a question in a general forum where people don’t know his exact rules, the expected answers will be ones that conform to the ‘normal’ rules of the game. Either way, that's why added things like the following to my original response.
If you guys use some more technical definition for your rules then thats something else.
...
in normal circumstances
If they wanted a rule for killing people with damage from the commander that is clearer the just use either:
A) eliminated a player by dealing 21 points of commander damage.
Or
B) eliminated a player by dealing combat damage with your commander.
(A) clears up that it’s only in that method, while (B) allows for infect or just knocking the player out with the commander even if it never connected before.
He wasn't technically killed by commander damage. Being killed by commander damage is only when a single commander dealt someone 21 combat damage. If you guys use some more technical definition for your rules then thats something else.
Same with infect, infect is combat damage. Unless your rules specify something else it wouldn't count as "being eliminated by means other than damage."
So the correct answer in normal circumstances is just A.
He wouldnt be able to cast both the ignot and Balance if he didnt play the land first...
Anyways, I agree with Pokken. Everyone has already given you plenty of scenarios where casting balance is good (coming out ahead, pulling people back, or just wrecking the game), the extremes of any of its modes are undercosted compared to alternatives (wrath of god, mind slicer, armageddon) and the comperable cards all cost at least 4 mana (Cataclysm, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Razias Purification, Balancing Act). It can also be compared to other banned cards such as Worldfire and Sway of the Stars as it sort of resets the game while largely ignoring the preceeding plays... and those cost over 7 mana to cast.
At this point you’re just arguing that not everyone runs artifacts, enchantments, or PW... and that's a pretty silly stance to have, because even then its good to pull back people to your playing field and people would likely run it in such decks... and it would probably be the most annoying way to use it.
I mostly play control and i can guarantee you I’d cast balance 90% of the time as soon as I drew it even if i lost a few cards in my hand. Controlling people is a lot easier after you’ve neutered their fields and hands even if you end up with less cards.
Also something like end step overloaded cRift into Balance should be pretty hilarious... for the caster.
Except you're ignoring the slew of cmc 1 artifacts that are out there that are playable. Having Tolaria Academy Tap for 2-3 mana on turn three is super easy even if you aren't building around it.
T1 sensei's, t2 signet and you're already at Ancient Tomb Level for T3 and probably around 5 mana total...having casted only one ramp card. Theres also at least a handfull of non-rock cmc 0 artifacts that see some play, depending on the deck, and others with X that could be casted earlier to enable Tolaria, such as Astral Cornucopia and Everflowing Chalice.
A blue Ancient Tomb is more like the generally default setting, not the optimal scenario. Optimal scenario is much, much worse.
I think OP is missing the fact that balance looks at everyone to determine what the lowest is, not just you.
SOMEONE will have less lands.
SOMEONE will have less creatures.
SOMEONE will have less cards in hand.
The fact is more often than not Balance will be a pseudo-wrath of god and a mass discard, with some to plenty of MLD thrown in... for two mana.
This, basically. Vannifar is pretty easy to disrupt, just keep creatures away from her, spot her, keep her from activating or tutoring. Vannifar, even as a toolbox, is much weaker than Yisan or Arcum by virtue of being only sorcery speed and require specific costs in play in order to toolbox into something it needs. Yisan is similarly constrained, but it requieres nothing else to tutor. As for comboing, shes also worse than either of those since it needs way more specific and dead cards to actually chain into a win.
> Provides criteria as evidence that it isn’t followed.
> Criteria literally specifies that cards exactly like CV will be banned.
Good job.
So before you say that Exapropriate is the same, like Loucypher said, there’s nothing in it’s text that says it just wins. It’s floor is certainly high since at worst you get an extra turn and three lands, at which point you essentially casted a fused timewarp and explosive vegetation. However, even in its better scenarios you will generally still be playing after it resolves, allowing you choices where you don’t just lose.
Anyways besides it blatantly interacting poorly with the format, theres also the point you seem to be opting to ignore that it would create undesirable game states. How? Because everytime a 5c deck gets its five typed lands or its commander in play everyone will just be focused on stopping the CV. So sure, the odds of CV actually resolving might be low due to removal and counters, but its legality would work as a pseudo Karakas only for 5c decks.
Also, again, CV is literally the only card in all of mtg that wins solely by resolving AND is aided by edhs rules. Everything else needs something happening after the original card resolves.
> card that wins just by playing edh requires skill.
> card that needs the caster to make at least 3 choices out multiple options and also needs decision making from the opponents does not require any skill.
Well, okay then.
If they wanted a rule for killing people with damage from the commander that is clearer the just use either:
A) eliminated a player by dealing 21 points of commander damage.
Or
B) eliminated a player by dealing combat damage with your commander.
(A) clears up that it’s only in that method, while (B) allows for infect or just knocking the player out with the commander even if it never connected before.
Getting killed -with- commander damage isnt the same as getting killed -by- commander damage.
No one would say that killing someone at two life with an Isamaru, if the person was at less than 19 cmdr dmg, was killing them by commander damage.
Same with infect, infect is combat damage. Unless your rules specify something else it wouldn't count as "being eliminated by means other than damage."
So the correct answer in normal circumstances is just A.
Also relevant rules on infect are here: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Infect
Anyways, I agree with Pokken. Everyone has already given you plenty of scenarios where casting balance is good (coming out ahead, pulling people back, or just wrecking the game), the extremes of any of its modes are undercosted compared to alternatives (wrath of god, mind slicer, armageddon) and the comperable cards all cost at least 4 mana (Cataclysm, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Razias Purification, Balancing Act). It can also be compared to other banned cards such as Worldfire and Sway of the Stars as it sort of resets the game while largely ignoring the preceeding plays... and those cost over 7 mana to cast.
At this point you’re just arguing that not everyone runs artifacts, enchantments, or PW... and that's a pretty silly stance to have, because even then its good to pull back people to your playing field and people would likely run it in such decks... and it would probably be the most annoying way to use it.
Also something like end step overloaded cRift into Balance should be pretty hilarious... for the caster.
T1 sensei's, t2 signet and you're already at Ancient Tomb Level for T3 and probably around 5 mana total...having casted only one ramp card. Theres also at least a handfull of non-rock cmc 0 artifacts that see some play, depending on the deck, and others with X that could be casted earlier to enable Tolaria, such as Astral Cornucopia and Everflowing Chalice.
A blue Ancient Tomb is more like the generally default setting, not the optimal scenario. Optimal scenario is much, much worse.
SOMEONE will have less lands.
SOMEONE will have less creatures.
SOMEONE will have less cards in hand.
The fact is more often than not Balance will be a pseudo-wrath of god and a mass discard, with some to plenty of MLD thrown in... for two mana.