How about Selesnya Guildmage as a payoff card? Just chord on endstep and go ham with saprolings. Can also be recurred with Rallier. The second ability can't be used infinitely but it could "help" the beatdown plan if there's no Gavony Township in play.
Yeah I think you're right. Tested it out a bit last night online against various decks and it was just a Wastes in most matchups. Hmm, I still want the 26th land though. And I'd prefer it to be a utility land since I already feel good about the color fixing. Is Tectonic Edge the only viable choice?
What do you guys think of Nephalia Academy as a 26th land? I used to play 25 lands without too many problems, but I've been trying 26 lately and that extra land really helped me get out of some tight spots. Thoughtseize and Inquisition really hurt sometimes (not all the time) and we all know how devastating a resolved Liliana is when she's +1ing you into oblivion. Becoming hellbent and then drawing blanks feels really bad. This land is a may ability so you can choose whether you want to topdeck something or redraw a card you really needed.
I guess it's just a meta thing. I've been seeing a lot of discard lately both mainboard and side. Even if the card is dead against Tron or something, it's still a land that comes in untapped.
I've been playing around archangel during Eldrazi Winter and with Eldritch Evolution since it was spoiled. When the card was good, it was amazing. Then you have games where they're just stuck in your hand + a bad topdeck after all your creatures are dead, or they're countered and you 2 for 1 yourself. I do believe the card will only get stronger when more creatures are printed however.
The point is to get to the midgame and play for value. 2 Archangels will give you an out when you need it. I've played with other 5 drops, such as Thragtusk and Reveillark. The Reveillark + Eternal Witness loop is SO GOOD! Unfortunately, I took it out because I don't want the deck to be too vulnerable to grave hate.
I've tested it so far versus the recent Junk Lists with Fatal Push (The card is amazing. Killing Grim Flayer and Goyf so easily was great. On the other side, he killed my Rhino and Resto with ease). I've also tested against some Esper Control as well as UW Control, among some other brews like Bring to Light. I haven't had too many problems yet. I'm only worried about running 8 creature-only removal and dying to straight combo decks.
I used to run Collective Brutality before Fatal Push came out. I don't know if I should straight up replace it, but I'm torn between the two. Collective Brutality is a better all around card that can help in all kinds of match ups, including Tron (although not great) and Ad Nauseam. But Fatal Push helps you survive the fast decks more easily and helps you out attrition the BGx decks. Using Eternal Witness to regrowth a Push was the best feeling.
I'll be running this deck at my LGS next week, so I'll make some records and report back when I can. Also, the discord channel seems like a great idea!
Wouldn't Gurmag Angler seem good with Fatal Push in the format? It doesn't get hit by it.
Don't think Prized Amalgam gets played with the delve creatures. It's either all in dredge or go more midrange.
For now, I'll just try replacing the trolls with thugs and see how things go. Insolent Neonate and Cathartic Reunion are still amazing cards for the dredge mechanic.
Dredgevine just seemed worse than Dredge, but now that GGT is banned, vengevine could still be a viable thing. We still have amalgam, cathartic reunion, and Golgari Thug if we want dredge, or if the dredge mechanic isn't good anymore, we can go back to delve creatures or grisly salvage like the old days.
Sounded like you had a lot of fun, especially when hunting for foils. Control decks are definitely the bane of this archetype. I have a Thrun and a playset of Thoughtseize in my sideboard for them, but it's definitely a bad matchup.
Do you sometimes think the deck needs the 2nd Archangel of Thune? I'm playing with 2 Thunes right now and I find it to be an okay number. If my Thune gets path'd, Spike Feeder won't be totally useless.
And how was Windborn Muse? The body seems really weak, but a tutorable propaganda effect seems pretty good. Would you still keep it?
I'm having trouble deciding on whether we need more than one Siege Rhino too. I just wish there were more 4 drops in Abzan that are super amazing off an evo'd Voice. I was thinking of adding Ranger of Eos as a value card as well as a tutor for Viscera Seer so that we could assemble Seer/Finks/Archangel as another combo out. And maybe a Burrenton Forge-Tender in the sideboard as another Ranger target as well. What do you think?
Last question! Is 3 Chords a good number to play without Wall of Roots? I'm playing 4 Paths and 2 Chords myself, but 2 might not be enough.
Thanks for the report and I'll look forward to reading about your GPT one as well in the future.
I play Yuuya's Worlds list, with the exception of a Sphinx's Rev replacing Sun Titan. Sideboard is different of course, but I had a question regarding sideboarding vs Jund.
I normally just side out 2x Vendilion Clique and either 2x Remand or D-Sphere (not sure yet) for 1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion, 1x Celestial Purge, and 2x Negate.
I was wondering if you guys would side in Rest in Peace vs Jund? It not only affects their goyfs, but also their Grim Lavamancer, Kalitas, and most importantly their postboard Fulminator Mage + Kolaghan's Command looping. It sounds great, but then I don't really know what to side out. The list runs 4x Kitchen Finks, and siding out finks bothers me since they are also very good vs Jund.
If you were to play RiP vs Jund, what would you guys side out? Or would it just be better to run something like Relic of Progenitus for a list that runs 4x Finks?
3 cleaves, 1 gorge seems right to me. Red is pretty important for t1 looting and neonates, but now even more important for t2 reunion. I don't think I'd cut it for the bg fastland, but I haven't tested so it's always up in the air
Played some more games in the past days. Life from the Loam is not as effective as I thought and I find myself wishing it was just the other Stinkweed Imp whenever it hits the yard, and I also don't run Conflagrate anymore. With Cathartic Reunion, even without the dredge engine, you still get to draw 3 cards and discard relevant creatures, which helps me hit the land drops I need. Dakmor Salvage as a 1-of is also good as it gave me that very last land drop I needed to set up my Ghasts and Amalgams. And Haunted Dead saved me in 2 games by being a graveyard discard outlet as well as giving me a spirit chump blocker, so I'll never be taking her out again.
I moved the Loams to the sideboard, but I'm not really sure what matchups to side them in for. Postboard, grave hate is inevitable so siding in Loam seems pretty bad. I'm not sure though, any advice?
I highly agree on 4. Played some games last night and t2 cathartic was amazing. Tried 3, as suggested (thank you KillerManfred!) and I just wanted more. You rarely need to cast the 2nd reunion if you had 2 in your opening hand, but after that, it's most definitely game.
At first, I was too fed up with cutting Lightning Axe or Conflagarate from the mb, since that means there would be no mb answers to ooze. Since the deck actually became almost one turn faster, I wouldn't need to worry too much. They can't exile fast enough and the explosiveness is really crazy! One thing I missed was Life from the Loam, so I'll be trying 4 troll 2 imp 2 loam. 3 imp sounds more correct, but I'm hoping the 2nd loam could make up for it with its utility. Getting that 3rd land drop is so important for this deck.
Postboard, I'm definitely keeping abrupt decay and nature's claim. I believe those are must haves.
Yeah I understand. I remember some years ago, I ran 20 lands, casted looting t1 on the draw and was still stuck on 1 land for about 4 turns, losing that game out right.
4 Looting
2 Reunion
1 Conflagrate
1 Life from the Loam
I tried this but found that Reunion definitely needs to be either 3-4, as it's won me many games by just being in my opening hand, at least in testing. The conflagrate is my only answer to maindeck t2 oozes, and sometimes it's not enough. Loam is there for value, but I could see putting it in the sideboard instead.
Oh yeah, sideboard!:
2 Decay
2 Grudge
2 Gnaw
2 Lightning Axe
2 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
4 Collective Brutality (Really aggro meta)
It combos at about the same speed, but it has a lot of potential for straight value from Evo + Finks/Voice.
There are lots of things I'm iffy about for my own list:
1. 12 Mana dorks. The 12 mana dork/4 Archangel plan always worked well for me with the old iteration of the list. Evolution makes it so so so much easier to find Archangel off a Finks. Not sure we need 4 anymore. I'll be testing 2-3, since this is called Archangel Chord after all. And with the decrease in the number of Archangels, I'm not sure how many Wall of Roots I would need to shave off.
2. The toolbox. I believe a 1-of Sin Collector is a must now. Evolution is so weak to counterspells that we need some way of looking into their hand for info in order to play around it. This makes me want to run a Resto Angel next to it, as she is amazing with all the etb effects. The number of Siege Rhinos could increase as well, but I don't want to devolve from the combo game plan too much.
3. 3 Finks is wrong. I thought it wouldn't make too much of a difference, but ever since I started testing, all I've wanted in my opening hand was a Finks next to an Evo, and of course next to a Mana Dork. 4 Finks/4 Voice is most definitely correct.
4. 1 Spike Feeder or 2 Spike Feeder? I tried 1, since it is a "bad" card. I found that without any regrowth effects, I didn't like that it took away the option of comboing for the entire game. For my own personal meta (AGGRO AGGRO AGGRO), I'll stick with 2. At an unknown meta, I could see 1.
5. Horizon Canopy. 2-3 is the correct number, I know. I'm sticking with 1 for now because price. I'll most likely replace a Marsh Flats or Razorverge Thicket with it after I get another.
6. Lingering Souls! I loved this card in the old list. It acted as a three drop and a five drop which helped with the flooding, provided tons of chord mana, chumped for days as I assembled the combo. I mostly miss it in the blue matchups now since I straight up replaced it with Evolution. Other than that, I'm okay with not playing it anymore. Evolution is so bad on an empty board, but getting the Archangels out faster and more consistently is worth not running Souls.
Bad matchups are still Jeskai Control decks and Tron.
Voice helps a lot with UW matchups, but when red is added to the mix, it gets a little difficult.
Tron is just one of those matchups that you have to give up. Not even sure why I waste sideboard slots for it anymore.
The burn matchup, though already very good, becomes even better with Finks + Siege Rhino instead of just Courser.
Bogles and Infect are easier due to "T1 Dork, T2 Evo into Spellskite".
For any midrange matchup, the potential for value is much better.
And since the speed of the combo is about the same, maybe even faster, combo matchups are a little easier to race. Not to mention the maindeck Sin Collector.
Overall, I would need to test more to find out if Evolution actually works with a 4 Archangel deck.
Right now, the following changes I'm thinking of testing are:
-1 Archangel of Thune
+1 Kitchen Finks
-2 Wall of Roots
+1 Restoration Angel
+1 Siege Rhino
Any other suggestions are welcome! I could be playing Abzan Company if I wanted to, but I've had more fun with this deck.
I guess it's just a meta thing. I've been seeing a lot of discard lately both mainboard and side. Even if the card is dead against Tron or something, it's still a land that comes in untapped.
For now, I'm playing this list:
2 Archangel of Thune
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Restoration Angel
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Siege Rhino
1 Spellskite
1 Spike Feeder
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Roots
4 Chord of Calling
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
Land (22)
2 Forest
3 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Stony Silence
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
The point is to get to the midgame and play for value. 2 Archangels will give you an out when you need it. I've played with other 5 drops, such as Thragtusk and Reveillark. The Reveillark + Eternal Witness loop is SO GOOD! Unfortunately, I took it out because I don't want the deck to be too vulnerable to grave hate.
I've tested it so far versus the recent Junk Lists with Fatal Push (The card is amazing. Killing Grim Flayer and Goyf so easily was great. On the other side, he killed my Rhino and Resto with ease). I've also tested against some Esper Control as well as UW Control, among some other brews like Bring to Light. I haven't had too many problems yet. I'm only worried about running 8 creature-only removal and dying to straight combo decks.
I used to run Collective Brutality before Fatal Push came out. I don't know if I should straight up replace it, but I'm torn between the two. Collective Brutality is a better all around card that can help in all kinds of match ups, including Tron (although not great) and Ad Nauseam. But Fatal Push helps you survive the fast decks more easily and helps you out attrition the BGx decks. Using Eternal Witness to regrowth a Push was the best feeling.
I'll be running this deck at my LGS next week, so I'll make some records and report back when I can. Also, the discord channel seems like a great idea!
Don't think Prized Amalgam gets played with the delve creatures. It's either all in dredge or go more midrange.
For now, I'll just try replacing the trolls with thugs and see how things go. Insolent Neonate and Cathartic Reunion are still amazing cards for the dredge mechanic.
Dredgevine just seemed worse than Dredge, but now that GGT is banned, vengevine could still be a viable thing. We still have amalgam, cathartic reunion, and Golgari Thug if we want dredge, or if the dredge mechanic isn't good anymore, we can go back to delve creatures or grisly salvage like the old days.
Sounded like you had a lot of fun, especially when hunting for foils. Control decks are definitely the bane of this archetype. I have a Thrun and a playset of Thoughtseize in my sideboard for them, but it's definitely a bad matchup.
Do you sometimes think the deck needs the 2nd Archangel of Thune? I'm playing with 2 Thunes right now and I find it to be an okay number. If my Thune gets path'd, Spike Feeder won't be totally useless.
And how was Windborn Muse? The body seems really weak, but a tutorable propaganda effect seems pretty good. Would you still keep it?
I'm having trouble deciding on whether we need more than one Siege Rhino too. I just wish there were more 4 drops in Abzan that are super amazing off an evo'd Voice. I was thinking of adding Ranger of Eos as a value card as well as a tutor for Viscera Seer so that we could assemble Seer/Finks/Archangel as another combo out. And maybe a Burrenton Forge-Tender in the sideboard as another Ranger target as well. What do you think?
Last question! Is 3 Chords a good number to play without Wall of Roots? I'm playing 4 Paths and 2 Chords myself, but 2 might not be enough.
Thanks for the report and I'll look forward to reading about your GPT one as well in the future.
I'd love to hear a report from you. This deck isn't very popular but I think it does have some potential.
I play Yuuya's Worlds list, with the exception of a Sphinx's Rev replacing Sun Titan. Sideboard is different of course, but I had a question regarding sideboarding vs Jund.
I normally just side out 2x Vendilion Clique and either 2x Remand or D-Sphere (not sure yet) for 1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion, 1x Celestial Purge, and 2x Negate.
I was wondering if you guys would side in Rest in Peace vs Jund? It not only affects their goyfs, but also their Grim Lavamancer, Kalitas, and most importantly their postboard Fulminator Mage + Kolaghan's Command looping. It sounds great, but then I don't really know what to side out. The list runs 4x Kitchen Finks, and siding out finks bothers me since they are also very good vs Jund.
If you were to play RiP vs Jund, what would you guys side out? Or would it just be better to run something like Relic of Progenitus for a list that runs 4x Finks?
Thanks!
Played some more games in the past days. Life from the Loam is not as effective as I thought and I find myself wishing it was just the other Stinkweed Imp whenever it hits the yard, and I also don't run Conflagrate anymore. With Cathartic Reunion, even without the dredge engine, you still get to draw 3 cards and discard relevant creatures, which helps me hit the land drops I need. Dakmor Salvage as a 1-of is also good as it gave me that very last land drop I needed to set up my Ghasts and Amalgams. And Haunted Dead saved me in 2 games by being a graveyard discard outlet as well as giving me a spirit chump blocker, so I'll never be taking her out again.
I moved the Loams to the sideboard, but I'm not really sure what matchups to side them in for. Postboard, grave hate is inevitable so siding in Loam seems pretty bad. I'm not sure though, any advice?
At first, I was too fed up with cutting Lightning Axe or Conflagarate from the mb, since that means there would be no mb answers to ooze. Since the deck actually became almost one turn faster, I wouldn't need to worry too much. They can't exile fast enough and the explosiveness is really crazy! One thing I missed was Life from the Loam, so I'll be trying 4 troll 2 imp 2 loam. 3 imp sounds more correct, but I'm hoping the 2nd loam could make up for it with its utility. Getting that 3rd land drop is so important for this deck.
Postboard, I'm definitely keeping abrupt decay and nature's claim. I believe those are must haves.
Yeah I understand. I remember some years ago, I ran 20 lands, casted looting t1 on the draw and was still stuck on 1 land for about 4 turns, losing that game out right.
I'm on mobile, but here's a gist of my list:
3 Blackcleave
2 Copperline
4 Verdant
4 Bloodstained
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown
1 Stomping
1 Twilight Mire
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Gravecrawler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
4 Amalgam
4 Stinkweed
4 Grave Troll
4 Vengevine
4 Looting
2 Reunion
1 Conflagrate
1 Life from the Loam
I tried this but found that Reunion definitely needs to be either 3-4, as it's won me many games by just being in my opening hand, at least in testing. The conflagrate is my only answer to maindeck t2 oozes, and sometimes it's not enough. Loam is there for value, but I could see putting it in the sideboard instead.
Oh yeah, sideboard!:
2 Decay
2 Grudge
2 Gnaw
2 Lightning Axe
2 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
4 Collective Brutality (Really aggro meta)
Here's what I've been testing both on Cockatrice and once a week at my card shop since evolution was spoiled:
4 Archangel of Thune
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sin Collector
1 Spellskite
2 Spike Feeder
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Wall of Roots
4 Chord of Calling
Sorcery (4)
4 Eldritch Evolution
Land (22)
2 Forest
3 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize
It combos at about the same speed, but it has a lot of potential for straight value from Evo + Finks/Voice.
There are lots of things I'm iffy about for my own list:
1. 12 Mana dorks. The 12 mana dork/4 Archangel plan always worked well for me with the old iteration of the list. Evolution makes it so so so much easier to find Archangel off a Finks. Not sure we need 4 anymore. I'll be testing 2-3, since this is called Archangel Chord after all. And with the decrease in the number of Archangels, I'm not sure how many Wall of Roots I would need to shave off.
2. The toolbox. I believe a 1-of Sin Collector is a must now. Evolution is so weak to counterspells that we need some way of looking into their hand for info in order to play around it. This makes me want to run a Resto Angel next to it, as she is amazing with all the etb effects. The number of Siege Rhinos could increase as well, but I don't want to devolve from the combo game plan too much.
3. 3 Finks is wrong. I thought it wouldn't make too much of a difference, but ever since I started testing, all I've wanted in my opening hand was a Finks next to an Evo, and of course next to a Mana Dork. 4 Finks/4 Voice is most definitely correct.
4. 1 Spike Feeder or 2 Spike Feeder? I tried 1, since it is a "bad" card. I found that without any regrowth effects, I didn't like that it took away the option of comboing for the entire game. For my own personal meta (AGGRO AGGRO AGGRO), I'll stick with 2. At an unknown meta, I could see 1.
5. Horizon Canopy. 2-3 is the correct number, I know. I'm sticking with 1 for now because price. I'll most likely replace a Marsh Flats or Razorverge Thicket with it after I get another.
6. Lingering Souls! I loved this card in the old list. It acted as a three drop and a five drop which helped with the flooding, provided tons of chord mana, chumped for days as I assembled the combo. I mostly miss it in the blue matchups now since I straight up replaced it with Evolution. Other than that, I'm okay with not playing it anymore. Evolution is so bad on an empty board, but getting the Archangels out faster and more consistently is worth not running Souls.
Bad matchups are still Jeskai Control decks and Tron.
Voice helps a lot with UW matchups, but when red is added to the mix, it gets a little difficult.
Tron is just one of those matchups that you have to give up. Not even sure why I waste sideboard slots for it anymore.
The burn matchup, though already very good, becomes even better with Finks + Siege Rhino instead of just Courser.
Bogles and Infect are easier due to "T1 Dork, T2 Evo into Spellskite".
For any midrange matchup, the potential for value is much better.
And since the speed of the combo is about the same, maybe even faster, combo matchups are a little easier to race. Not to mention the maindeck Sin Collector.
Overall, I would need to test more to find out if Evolution actually works with a 4 Archangel deck.
Right now, the following changes I'm thinking of testing are:
-1 Archangel of Thune
+1 Kitchen Finks
-2 Wall of Roots
+1 Restoration Angel
+1 Siege Rhino
Any other suggestions are welcome! I could be playing Abzan Company if I wanted to, but I've had more fun with this deck.