I'm thinking of adding a copy or two of Echoing Truth to deal with problematic permanents like Stony Silence. It doesn't permanently deal with it but it's a catch all (bar manlands) and can be effective enough to let us get through next turn.
Keep in mind that you need to return a Forest to untap a creature. Generally we only run about 3-4 basic Forests and perhaps a copy of Temple Garden/Overgrown Tomb. Rest of the land base is nonbasics. Even then you need to have an Archdruid down since he's the one tapping for big amounts of mana plus something to sink all that mana into.
I took the primer decklist and just slammed the deck.
2 things worth mentioning:
It seems that collected company is the real payoff card of the deck.
I wish i could just have a 5th one because i just demanded it in some situations.
Sideboard:
What is Monastery Siege for? Burn?
It's a clunky card that doesn't seem to do so much on it's own.
Also the 4 Counterspells have been a bit too much.
I just wish to board in an all-around counter, but the most problematic things for this deck are Karn, Anger, Engineered Explosives, Liliana...
Monastery Siege is brought in against decks heavy with spot removal like BGx or Grixis. Early on it taxes their mana so they can only play a spell per turn and late in the game if you draw one, you can pick Khans to draw additional card on your draw step.
Thought-Knot Seer proved as a viable option in my limited testing with Eldritch Evolution back when it was spoiled. People simply weren't expecting an Eldrazi from an Elves deck.
I tested Unified Will and it served me well. Playing counterspells slows down our game plan a tad but they're generally played on the same turn as Thoughtseize to counter that nasty Anger/Damnation/Karn etc. So rather than going all in and dumping our hand, you play a little more conservatively to keep mana for counter up. Later on we're keeping mana up for Chord/CoCo anyway so they don't always know what might be coming.
As far as cards themselves go, unless your meta game is really creature heavy, I'd rather go for Negate than Unified Will. Creatures generally aren't a problem for us and they can mess with Unified Will if they lower our creature count in response to casting it. Another great early game option is Spell Pierce but this one loses effectiveness later in the game.
I just went 5-1 for a fourth place finish in a mid size event here in Japan. I used my sultai elves I have been working on for a while. My deck list will be posted on the Monthly Modern Masters site, so I will post my list on here once it's up. I will write a short report once I have a good nights rest. Didn't face many grindy matchups, but faced a lot of fast, linear strategies. I equipped my sultai list with Nissa to beat grindy matchups, but apparently, they weren't bad against fast decks either lol my testing has been that nissa actually helps us combo and become a turn 4 kill deck consistently, rather than hinder it. It has versatility and does some cool things. The main winner for going blue, however, was playing phantasmal image. It was probably the all star of the deck.
It's cool to see @Syreal94 back and rocking the world and see some results from elves decks. Keep the innovation going fellow elves! The deck is not dead at all!
Haven't thought about Phantasmal Image. We've got some ETB targets like Elite, Visionary and Shaman which is nice. Though if you get an Image and a Shaman off CoCo, Image won't see the Shaman since they're coming in at the same time. Would love to see your decklist, asap.
The subscribe function doesn't do anything. I can click on it, the text will change to Unsubscribe but only after I click Subscribe for the 2nd time. But as soon as I refresh the page, it reverts back.
Unsubscribing works fine from my subscription list.
Two questions about the GB build (but also abzan)
first question: is Lost legacy a viable option? I was thinking to split with stain the mind, the reson being it's easier to cast in a more interacting matchup (you need 3 mana instead of any combination of 5 lands and creatures). The double black scares me a bit.
second question: in the fetch versions (in which i really rarely find myself without forest lands) Arbor Elf is a strictly better llanowar elves as it can tap for multiple colours (sometimes we will need to produce multiple black for Shaman of The Pack or black spells). Isn't it a better choice than boreal druid?
Double black would require 20 black sources to reliably cast on turn 2 or 19 to cast it by turn 3. That's more than out total land count so Lost Legacy sadly doesn't fit in our deck.
As for you second question, the only lands Arbor Elf is able to untap are basic Forests and a copy of Overgrown Tomb/Temple Garden. It doesn't work with Razorverge Thicket/Blooming Marsh/Gilt-Leaf Palace/Cavern of Souls/Horizon Canopy which makes it pretty useless as they usually represent our mana base.
Went 3-1 in an 18 player Modern Monday today. Saw Zac playing the deck on stream @ GP Vegas and decided to sleeve it up. Nearly identical list except 3x Ceremonious Rejection and just 1x Wurmcoil Engine since I couldn't get the second one.
Lost 0-2 (P) versus Grixis Death's Shadow
Won 2-1 (D) versus Jeskai Control
Won 2-0 (D) versus Junk
Won 2-0 (P) versus Grixis Moon
Round 1 - Grixis Death's Shadow // 0-2 (On the play):
Got absolutely destroyed in G1. I'm on the play, island, Mausoleum Wanderer, pass. He fetches, goes to 17, casts Dismember on my Wanderer, goes to 13, pass. I follow up with Ethereum Sculptor, pass. He fetches again, down to 10. Cast two Death's Shadows, pass. I stumble, get hit for 10 the following the turn and he plays another Shadow.
Game 2 wasn't much different. Thoughtseize takes the Architect, he slams an early Tasigur while dealing with my threats one by one.
Round 2 - Jeskai Control // 2-1 (On the draw):
Novice player, he made quite a lot of mistakes. Slowly grinded him down with Blinkmoth Nexuses in game 1. Floodfest in game 2 but stalled it long enough with two copies of Thorn of Amethyst which slowed him down considerably. Game 3 we had about 5 minutes left on the clock and I mowed him down with T1 Familiar into T2 Chief Engineer into Etherium Sculptor into Throne. Followed by T3 Grand Architect into Lodestone Golem with Wurmcoil Engine backup ready for T4. GG.
Round 3 - Junk // 2-0 (On the draw):
Game 1 I land two Lodestone Golems off an Architect which along with Nexus and some Copter hits bring him to 0. Game turns into a grindfest with me controlling a Sculptor, Engineer and two Trinket Mages in hand while he has a Goyf and two spirit tokens. He chips at my life getting me down to 6 before I grabbed a Hangarback Walker with one mage and Relic of Progenitus with the other to shrink his Goyf. He topdecks a Rhino to bring me down to 3 but I manage to tick my Walker up enough to prevent him from favourably attacking. Eventually I get a Ballista, grow it considerably and while finds a Path for my Walker, Ballista grew out of control and took over the game.
Round 4 - Grixis Moon // 2-0 (On the play):
Basically a Grixis Control list with Blood Moons. He never cast one and it'd be useless against me anyway, Islands all the way. Game 1 was Throne all-star game. Must've drained at least 10 life with it as he wasn't able to deal with it. Rest was on the shoulders of Blinkmoth Nexus chipping for 1 all the way down from 11 life.
Game 2 saw two Lodestone Golems versus his Tasigur and Ballista eventually securing the victory.
Overall I'm really happy with the deck and it's performance. It's incredibly resilient although it lacks in card advantage and sometimes feels like you're playing topdeck roulette. I already ordered a playset of Sage of Epityr to test them out as well as some other artifacts like Defense Grid, Storage Matrix, Mindlock Orb, Quicksilver Fountain, Torpor Orb and Scuttling Doom Engine to test it alongside Wurmcoil Engine. Can't be chumped with weenies and hits for 6 when destroyed.
So is throne decent sideboard material then? Would it be good to side in against non-fast aggro decks?
I'm not too sure I'd want to dedicate a SB slot for it. I like it as one copy in MB precisely because of the surprise factor in G1. But as I've said, it's a legendary artifact that we cannot tutor and it needs to come down as early as possible to maximise its effect while also relying on a board presence to increase its potency. It works against BGx/Grixis decks in those cases where neither player can favourably attack and we can drain them for 2-3 points each turn by tapping our mana dorks but both can remove it via Abrupt Decay/Kolaghan's Command.
Playing multiple copies to increase the odds of seeing one would in my opinion dilute our mainboard too much to warrant that.
Has anyone done anymore work on throne of the god pharaoh? If so how has it been performing?
Played with it as a one of in mainboard (Green-Black) and I've found myself sideboarding it out a lot. When it hits the board early, it can chip in nicely. But as Larriepogi said, too slow against aggro and other linear decks.
It's also legendary so having multiple copies to increases the odds of drawing one is negated by the fact that you can only have one copy on the battlefield.
Haven't seen much discussion recently about Defense Grid. What are your thoughts? It's costs the same as Throne which means it's possible to use the same lines of play. We're a tap out deck so the extra cost will mostly affect our opponents and their instant speed shenanigans.
Mirror Entity as a main card in the GB beatdown?
Budget versions of Abzan not running or running 1 Horizon Canopy?
Deck lists by FNM players? One list is running 2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast.
Seriously, you are telling me this is the best there is?
Dont get me wrong, there is some good stuff, but its mixed with so much outdated and faulty information that its hard to read.
As far as decklists are concerned, if you're preoccupied with "the best there is", then please go to MTGtop8.com. The primer is supposed to cover more ground then simply throw the "best" lists at you. FNM lists may not be what you decide to bring to a 256 man tourney but it can sometimes provide new perspectives and insights into local metas and even help when someone played well in a meta similar to your own.
This is exactly right. I am one of the writers for the primer (much of the BG portion) and I can attest to the fact that our goal in writing the primer was "give as much of a wide range of ideas as possible, opening the mind up to different possibilities," not "provide the best and most relevant decklist for competitive players in large tournaments." Are we concerned about competitive players? Yes, of course. I am a competitive player myself. However, we are also concerned about new players who play in FNMs and creative players who want just that nudge towards an interesting idea.
I said there was good stuff, but even for FNM, there were kitchen table lists and obvious mistakes, such as mirror entity in the "primeier" black green list. It's a white card...
Me stating there are mistakes doesn't mean I "need" to go to mtgtop8, it means the primer is sloppy. Posting a home brew as the optimal list is wrong and doesn't seem to go on in every other major tier thread. It's good to talk about various cards, but a primer is to teach and discuss. Not post Jim Bobs 4 man FNM list with pet cards as the basic structure of the deck.
Thanks for pointing it out. I don't know how I didn't catch it at all, going through the decklists and primer several times. The list in question is clearly Abzan and not GB.
As far as the other lists go, there is no definitive best version of them to list them are the only right choice. Feel free to post your idea of a perfect non-budget version of any list and I'll add them. I gathered lists from mtgtop8 and similar sites to show them as an example, because so far I haven't seen a consensus for the best version in either colour combination. Syreal's GB list would probably be the most streamlined example of a list which I'll be adding as the GB primer.
"FNM" decklists are merely a representation of different lists that people participating in this thread have been playing. Again they are in no way meant to be definitive lists but rather examples or guidelines for someone starting out with Elves.
If you have any more suggestions to add or improve the primer, we're more than willing to listen.
On the topic of new toys for us, this recently spoiled enchantment from Ixalan looks like the right fit for us:
Shaper's Sanctuary
G
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may draw a card.
Drew Swords just twice, Feast against Elves and Ice against Soul Sisters with Stony Silence so hardly any testing there.
Myr Battlesphere felt great. Gives us chump blockers and bodies to potentially turn blue with Architect which can translate into a huge Ballista.
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Chief Engineer
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Grand Architect
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Walking Ballista
3x Judge's Familiar
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Smuggler's Copter
2x Throne of the God-Pharaoh
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Bident of Thassa
Lands (22):
16x Island
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Academy Ruins
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2x Dismember
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Trinket Mage
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Torpor Orb
1x Hangarback Walker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Basilisk Collar
I'm thinking of adding a copy or two of Echoing Truth to deal with problematic permanents like Stony Silence. It doesn't permanently deal with it but it's a catch all (bar manlands) and can be effective enough to let us get through next turn.
Monastery Siege is brought in against decks heavy with spot removal like BGx or Grixis. Early on it taxes their mana so they can only play a spell per turn and late in the game if you draw one, you can pick Khans to draw additional card on your draw step.
As far as cards themselves go, unless your meta game is really creature heavy, I'd rather go for Negate than Unified Will. Creatures generally aren't a problem for us and they can mess with Unified Will if they lower our creature count in response to casting it. Another great early game option is Spell Pierce but this one loses effectiveness later in the game.
Haven't thought about Phantasmal Image. We've got some ETB targets like Elite, Visionary and Shaman which is nice. Though if you get an Image and a Shaman off CoCo, Image won't see the Shaman since they're coming in at the same time. Would love to see your decklist, asap.
Unsubscribing works fine from my subscription list.
Double black would require 20 black sources to reliably cast on turn 2 or 19 to cast it by turn 3. That's more than out total land count so Lost Legacy sadly doesn't fit in our deck.
As for you second question, the only lands Arbor Elf is able to untap are basic Forests and a copy of Overgrown Tomb/Temple Garden. It doesn't work with Razorverge Thicket/Blooming Marsh/Gilt-Leaf Palace/Cavern of Souls/Horizon Canopy which makes it pretty useless as they usually represent our mana base.
1 Academy Ruins
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
16 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Creatures (32):
4 Chief Engineer
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Grand Architect
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Master of Etherium
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Walking Ballista
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Smuggler's Copter
2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dismember
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Trinket Mage
Lost 0-2 (P) versus Grixis Death's Shadow
Won 2-1 (D) versus Jeskai Control
Won 2-0 (D) versus Junk
Won 2-0 (P) versus Grixis Moon
Round 1 - Grixis Death's Shadow // 0-2 (On the play):
Got absolutely destroyed in G1. I'm on the play, island, Mausoleum Wanderer, pass. He fetches, goes to 17, casts Dismember on my Wanderer, goes to 13, pass. I follow up with Ethereum Sculptor, pass. He fetches again, down to 10. Cast two Death's Shadows, pass. I stumble, get hit for 10 the following the turn and he plays another Shadow.
Game 2 wasn't much different. Thoughtseize takes the Architect, he slams an early Tasigur while dealing with my threats one by one.
In: 2x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Trinket Mage, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Relic of Progenitus, 1x Hangarback Walker, 1x Basilisk Collar
Out: 3x Master of Etherium, 1x Throne of the God-Pharaoh, 1x Smuggler's Copter, 1x Walking Ballista, 1x Judge's Familiar, 1x Lodestone Golem
Round 2 - Jeskai Control // 2-1 (On the draw):
Novice player, he made quite a lot of mistakes. Slowly grinded him down with Blinkmoth Nexuses in game 1. Floodfest in game 2 but stalled it long enough with two copies of Thorn of Amethyst which slowed him down considerably. Game 3 we had about 5 minutes left on the clock and I mowed him down with T1 Familiar into T2 Chief Engineer into Etherium Sculptor into Throne. Followed by T3 Grand Architect into Lodestone Golem with Wurmcoil Engine backup ready for T4. GG.
In: 2x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Trinket Mage, 1x Hangarback Walker, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Relic of Progenitus
Out: 3x Master of Etherium, 1x Smuggler's Copter, 1x Etherium Sculptor, 1x Throne of the God-Pharaoh, 1x Judge's Familiar, 1x Walking Ballista
Round 3 - Junk // 2-0 (On the draw):
Game 1 I land two Lodestone Golems off an Architect which along with Nexus and some Copter hits bring him to 0. Game turns into a grindfest with me controlling a Sculptor, Engineer and two Trinket Mages in hand while he has a Goyf and two spirit tokens. He chips at my life getting me down to 6 before I grabbed a Hangarback Walker with one mage and Relic of Progenitus with the other to shrink his Goyf. He topdecks a Rhino to bring me down to 3 but I manage to tick my Walker up enough to prevent him from favourably attacking. Eventually I get a Ballista, grow it considerably and while finds a Path for my Walker, Ballista grew out of control and took over the game.
In: 2x Trinket Mage, 2x Thorn of Amethyst, 1x Hangarback Walker, 1x Relic of Progenitus, 1x Basilisk Collar, 1x Grafdigger's Cage
Out 4x Master of Etherium, 1x Chief Engineer, 1x Etherium Sculptor, 1x Judge's Familiar, 1x Walking Ballista, 1x Throne of the God-Pharaoh, 1x Smuggler's Copter
Round 4 - Grixis Moon // 2-0 (On the play):
Basically a Grixis Control list with Blood Moons. He never cast one and it'd be useless against me anyway, Islands all the way. Game 1 was Throne all-star game. Must've drained at least 10 life with it as he wasn't able to deal with it. Rest was on the shoulders of Blinkmoth Nexus chipping for 1 all the way down from 11 life.
Game 2 saw two Lodestone Golems versus his Tasigur and Ballista eventually securing the victory.
In: 2x Trinket Mage, 2x Grafdigger's Cage, 2x Thorn of Amethyst, 1x Hangarback Walker, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Basilisk Collar, 1x Relic of Progenitus
Out: 4x Master of Etherium, 2x Smuggler's Copter, 1x Judge's Familiar, 1x Chief Engineer, 1x Walking Ballista, 1x Throne of the God-Pharaoh
Overall I'm really happy with the deck and it's performance. It's incredibly resilient although it lacks in card advantage and sometimes feels like you're playing topdeck roulette. I already ordered a playset of Sage of Epityr to test them out as well as some other artifacts like Defense Grid, Storage Matrix, Mindlock Orb, Quicksilver Fountain, Torpor Orb and Scuttling Doom Engine to test it alongside Wurmcoil Engine. Can't be chumped with weenies and hits for 6 when destroyed.
I'm not too sure I'd want to dedicate a SB slot for it. I like it as one copy in MB precisely because of the surprise factor in G1. But as I've said, it's a legendary artifact that we cannot tutor and it needs to come down as early as possible to maximise its effect while also relying on a board presence to increase its potency. It works against BGx/Grixis decks in those cases where neither player can favourably attack and we can drain them for 2-3 points each turn by tapping our mana dorks but both can remove it via Abrupt Decay/Kolaghan's Command.
Playing multiple copies to increase the odds of seeing one would in my opinion dilute our mainboard too much to warrant that.
Played with it as a one of in mainboard (Green-Black) and I've found myself sideboarding it out a lot. When it hits the board early, it can chip in nicely. But as Larriepogi said, too slow against aggro and other linear decks.
It's also legendary so having multiple copies to increases the odds of drawing one is negated by the fact that you can only have one copy on the battlefield.
Thanks for pointing it out. I don't know how I didn't catch it at all, going through the decklists and primer several times. The list in question is clearly Abzan and not GB.
As far as the other lists go, there is no definitive best version of them to list them are the only right choice. Feel free to post your idea of a perfect non-budget version of any list and I'll add them. I gathered lists from mtgtop8 and similar sites to show them as an example, because so far I haven't seen a consensus for the best version in either colour combination. Syreal's GB list would probably be the most streamlined example of a list which I'll be adding as the GB primer.
"FNM" decklists are merely a representation of different lists that people participating in this thread have been playing. Again they are in no way meant to be definitive lists but rather examples or guidelines for someone starting out with Elves.
If you have any more suggestions to add or improve the primer, we're more than willing to listen.
On the topic of new toys for us, this recently spoiled enchantment from Ixalan looks like the right fit for us: