Far from stirring the pot. It's good to see that new cards are being tested and evaluated, the only way to see what works and what doesn't.
I tested a 4x CoCo/2x Bestiary/2x Chord split on Monday and can chalk up 3 game wins to a resolved Bestiary. Especially shined against Jeskai Nahiri since they had no way to remove it and it put a serious strain on their removal spells. Less effective against BGx/Grixis due to their access to Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/Kolaghan's Command but luckily they didn't draw any.
I just went for a straight swap of 3 Lead the Stampede to 3 Lifecrafter's Bestiary for testing because I wanted to see if it could stand up on its own as the card advantage engine alongside coco. I prefer to test that way at first to get a feel for the card, then go back and toy with the exact numbers. However, from my experience, I don't know if I want to add back in any leads. You say that you don't want to see the bestiary in multiples, but I don't know if that is necessarily true. Especially with heritage druid and a nettle sentinel out, you can draw two cards off each dork, and keep pumping out mana and card until you find a couple shamans, then win (actual game play against u-tron one game). Lead is a one time thing, and it can "miss" by only hitting a couple dorks. With the bestiary, it takes a turn or two to get off the ground, but then everything snowballs. Also, I think the thing that I appreciated most actually testing with it was the passive scry. It is still a small sample size for me, so it may have just been match-up dependent, but for now, I like the bestiary over lead.
Yep, I test that way too. Makes sense.
If you have the Sentinel/Druid chain active, then Bestiary is definitely the engine par excellence, no qualms there. My concern centers around what seems a more common scenario: a decent board presence, but nothing crazy heading into T3 or T4. If your on-board ramp is minimal, Lead seems to do more for you in the here and now, while drawing into a second Bestiary becomes very cumbersome against decks with any sort of decent clock.
In any case, I think we agree on the broad strokes: Bestiary is a great card for us, and is maindeck material for G/B builds. I'll keep running the 4/2/2 split for now and see how it goes. Thanks for the response.
I tried out the same decklist today and felt the same. Though I'm fine with Bestiary replacing Lead but I found myself wanting a Chord in certain situations. Especially since we're able to draw one off Bestiary when casting creatures.
I just went for a straight swap of 3 Lead the Stampede to 3 Lifecrafter's Bestiary for testing because I wanted to see if it could stand up on its own as the card advantage engine alongside coco. I prefer to test that way at first to get a feel for the card, then go back and toy with the exact numbers. However, from my experience, I don't know if I want to add back in any leads. You say that you don't want to see the bestiary in multiples, but I don't know if that is necessarily true. Especially with heritage druid and a nettle sentinel out, you can draw two cards off each dork, and keep pumping out mana and card until you find a couple shamans, then win (actual game play against u-tron one game). Lead is a one time thing, and it can "miss" by only hitting a couple dorks. With the bestiary, it takes a turn or two to get off the ground, but then everything snowballs. Also, I think the thing that I appreciated most actually testing with it was the passive scry. It is still a small sample size for me, so it may have just been match-up dependent, but for now, I like the bestiary over lead.
Yep, I test that way too. Makes sense.
If you have the Sentinel/Druid chain active, then Bestiary is definitely the engine par excellence, no qualms there. My concern centers around what seems a more common scenario: a decent board presence, but nothing crazy heading into T3 or T4. If your on-board ramp is minimal, Lead seems to do more for you in the here and now, while drawing into a second Bestiary becomes very cumbersome against decks with any sort of decent clock.
In any case, I think we agree on the broad strokes: Bestiary is a great card for us, and is maindeck material for G/B builds. I'll keep running the 4/2/2 split for now and see how it goes. Thanks for the response.
Agreed, and you might be right, I haven't really run across that scenario yet. But the only time that would really punish you is if you are also against a deck with a fast clock. My one concern is, I haven't played against any abrupt decay decks yet. Against jund, lead is huge in keeping you ahead of their removal. If you drop bestiary, and it immediately gets decayed before you get value, I could see that being a real liability. Either way, I think its promising, and the only solution is to keep testing!
But on the other hand a Decay they've used on Bestiary is Decay not used on one of your creatures. And while Lead refills your hand against Jund, it doesn't advance your board presence. If they have a Goyf or Grim Flayer in play, they're already applying pressure that Lead would've done nothing against.
How did you find that single copy of Smuggler's Copter? I was impressed with it both times I've drawn it. Granted I haven't played against bolt decks, but looting came very handy while chipping for 3 on a stalled board.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary. I want it to work but i don't think it will. Maindeck is a bait card. It doesn't offer an immediate effect or generate card advantage when resolved up until maybe next turn.
You can only draw 1 card per creature casted. I do think scry is great advantage but it deviates from the decks original plan which is dropping creatures as fast as possible and overrun the opponent.
Out of the sideboard though, it may give Elves the reach it needs vs removal heavy decks. It works against control decks, long matches, board wypes, etc.
You're replacing every creature cast with another card for just G. I've been in many situations where I had 1-2 leftover mana each turn that could've been used to draw me a card if Bestiary was on the board.
Scry is also very valuable to us as it allows us to filter our topdecks late game. If you have 5 lands in play, you don't want the 6th one. You send it to the bottom, draw a dork/Ezuri/Shaman instead and cast it while also paying the extra mana to draw another card.
Lead digs 5 cards deep but since you see them all at once, you might end up puttting a land or a sideboard card to the bottom making it inaccessible for the rest of the game.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary. I want it to work but i don't think it will. Maindeck is a bait card. It doesn't offer an immediate effect or generate card advantage when resolved up until maybe next turn.
I'm on this train of thought, mostly for people proposing main deck inclusions. I am really hesitant to play a 3 mana, no immediate impact card when the decks in the format ate killing on t4. I can't imagine playing this as a T2 spell over a lord or over multiple dudes, and at most points on our natural curve (T1-T3) it is awkward to cast and get benefit from.
It might be sweet against Jeskai, but Grixis, Jund and Abzan all have inbuilt answers for it in their mains.
It just feels like a trap maindeck - just like Copter was a trap because having permanent based solutions just felt so much more vulnerable than a spell based refill.
Depends on the matchup. If you're playing against Control or matchups where you're playing the long game, I'd much rather see this as T2 play. It gives you a scry on T3 with possible 4 mana which translates into several possibilites:
2x any combination of one drops (Llanowar/Mystic/Nettle/Heritage) = 2 bodies + 2 cards drawn
Archdruid/Ezuri replace themselves
Visionary = 2 cards drawn
Lead is a one time shot whereas Bestiary keeps providing value for as long as it's on the field. I'll keep testing it and report back.
Which kind of Eldrazi? Bant Eldrazi are easier to deal with because we can go wide. Colorless Tron Eldrazi on the other hand are tougher to deal with it since they run Chalice of the Void along with Dismember, Warping Wail, Gut Shot to kill our dorks while they advance their board.
Yep, I tested out Lifecrafter's Bestiary some more today and it's the real deal. Resolved it against Jeskai Flash and Grixis Delver and it was a powerhouse. Although I lost against Jeskai, I had Bestiary on board for 4 turns which meant I scried 4 times and drew 2 extra cards off two dorks I drew. Unfortunately I was stuck on two lands with a hand full of 3/4 drops but the fact that I was able to see 6 additional cards for just 3 is fantastic.
We can play it on turn 2 and then reap the benefits on every subsequent turn. Scry is very good as it allows us to filter through our deck and put whatever we don't need to the bottom. Playing Elvish Visionary with this on board for 1GG to draw two card feels great. Especially since it's a "on cast" trigger which means even if they counter it, we still get to draw the card off Bestiary.
I did not know about this card up until i saw it here. Its been awhile since i last played with my elves. I was wondering what do u take out from the deck to make room for this card and does it go in main or do u use it in sideboard against control matches?
It's a new card so we've only recently got the chance to start testing it out. I used it against control matchups where we usually play the long game trying to grind it out. There are a couple of flex slots like Spellskite, Reclamation Sage and Chameleon Colossus that usually get switched out depending on the matchup. Sometimes I take out a copy or two of Dwynen's Elite and/or Elvish Visionary. In slower matchups where I don't expect to have a big board presence, I also take out one Shaman of the Pack.
Hey guys shout out to all the top 8ers from last weekend! G/B, G/W, and abzan all made showings. Seems like 4 chords was the common thread though, hate cards varied between decks, but no lead the stampede versions made it. Does that say anything about the card or more about the current meta?
Which site(s) do you use to find this information?
Have been running it as a singleton maindeck. Conclusion is that Visionary is better (or Skite if GW). The upside is that Mimic is treated by opponents as a high value target just like Ezuri or Archdruid, meaning he attracts spot removal cards. In other words, an increase in must-kill elves.
The downside is it doesnt provide card advantage over spot removal like Visionary does. While visionary is lower impact on the board, it having replaced itself with a random card is significant, given our low land count, the card is more likely gas than not.
Has anyone else experimented with it?
I ran 3 copies last week and wasn't impressed. It doesn't fit in the currently established CoCo shell. Unlike Dwynen's Elite and Elvish Visionary it doesn't do anything when it hits the board and when hit by CoCo it doesn't provide +1/+1 counter to the other creature entering the battlefield at the same time. Too slow and too clunky to warrant its spot in the 75.
But like @ZEUS1478526 pointed out on the previous page, it could work in a shell where it's paired with Bramblewood Paragon and Joraga Warcaller where you can really take advantage of the +1/+1 counters to quickly buff your elven warrior army.
Yep, I tested out Lifecrafter's Bestiary some more today and it's the real deal. Resolved it against Jeskai Flash and Grixis Delver and it was a powerhouse. Although I lost against Jeskai, I had Bestiary on board for 4 turns which meant I scried 4 times and drew 2 extra cards off two dorks I drew. Unfortunately I was stuck on two lands with a hand full of 3/4 drops but the fact that I was able to see 6 additional cards for just 3 is fantastic.
We can play it on turn 2 and then reap the benefits on every subsequent turn. Scry is very good as it allows us to filter through our deck and put whatever we don't need to the bottom. Playing Elvish Visionary with this on board for 1GG to draw two card feels great. Especially since it's a "on cast" trigger which means even if they counter it, we still get to draw the card off Bestiary.
Thoughts on chalice of the void on zero out of the side to deal with the new cheeri0s deck? Could even bring it in for affinity and setting on 1 on turn 2 is fine if we have a cavern in play if we can shut down an opposing deck with it.
Trying to proactively think of outs to the deck. It would allow us to proactively shut them off of the engine if were on the play without sacrificing any speed really.
Not thrilled about it being a non creature, but the idea of witch printkng a chalice on a stick sounds broken in half to me...could you imagine the salt?...the tilt? Erhnm, I digress...
Anyone else brewing outs to the pure steel/sram builds? Supposedly the deck has legs.
Aye, you gotta play the long game. But that's why I'm worried about Esper Charm in this particular matchup. Jeskai cannot touch your hand at all, Jund and Grixis can touch it but only at sorcery speed. Esper on the other hand can do it at instant speed. We don't reveal our hand and we're the ones choosing what to discard, but losing two cards at the end of turn looks pretty painful especially if they're able to hold back our board.
That said, this is all hypothetical without any numbers or testing backing it up, so perhaps it's not as dreadful as I'm making it out to be
Esper has Esper Charm which can dismantle our hand along with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek and at instant speed. A friend of mine is putting Esper Transcendent list together so I'll be able to playtest against it once he's done. But as with other control decks, I don't expect it to be an easy matchup.
If the voice chat is laggy, let me know and I'll try to move the server away from Australia. Either way, hope this can be a channel for more live discussion!
You need to link the invite url. The link posted doesn't work for me
I tested a 4x CoCo/2x Bestiary/2x Chord split on Monday and can chalk up 3 game wins to a resolved Bestiary. Especially shined against Jeskai Nahiri since they had no way to remove it and it put a serious strain on their removal spells. Less effective against BGx/Grixis due to their access to Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/Kolaghan's Command but luckily they didn't draw any.
I tried out the same decklist today and felt the same. Though I'm fine with Bestiary replacing Lead but I found myself wanting a Chord in certain situations. Especially since we're able to draw one off Bestiary when casting creatures.
But on the other hand a Decay they've used on Bestiary is Decay not used on one of your creatures. And while Lead refills your hand against Jund, it doesn't advance your board presence. If they have a Goyf or Grim Flayer in play, they're already applying pressure that Lead would've done nothing against.
How did you find that single copy of Smuggler's Copter? I was impressed with it both times I've drawn it. Granted I haven't played against bolt decks, but looting came very handy while chipping for 3 on a stalled board.
You're replacing every creature cast with another card for just G. I've been in many situations where I had 1-2 leftover mana each turn that could've been used to draw me a card if Bestiary was on the board.
Scry is also very valuable to us as it allows us to filter our topdecks late game. If you have 5 lands in play, you don't want the 6th one. You send it to the bottom, draw a dork/Ezuri/Shaman instead and cast it while also paying the extra mana to draw another card.
Lead digs 5 cards deep but since you see them all at once, you might end up puttting a land or a sideboard card to the bottom making it inaccessible for the rest of the game.
Depends on the matchup. If you're playing against Control or matchups where you're playing the long game, I'd much rather see this as T2 play. It gives you a scry on T3 with possible 4 mana which translates into several possibilites:
2x any combination of one drops (Llanowar/Mystic/Nettle/Heritage) = 2 bodies + 2 cards drawn
Archdruid/Ezuri replace themselves
Visionary = 2 cards drawn
Lead is a one time shot whereas Bestiary keeps providing value for as long as it's on the field. I'll keep testing it and report back.
It's a new card so we've only recently got the chance to start testing it out. I used it against control matchups where we usually play the long game trying to grind it out. There are a couple of flex slots like Spellskite, Reclamation Sage and Chameleon Colossus that usually get switched out depending on the matchup. Sometimes I take out a copy or two of Dwynen's Elite and/or Elvish Visionary. In slower matchups where I don't expect to have a big board presence, I also take out one Shaman of the Pack.
I think they're referring to the Star City Games Regionals.
I ran 3 copies last week and wasn't impressed. It doesn't fit in the currently established CoCo shell. Unlike Dwynen's Elite and Elvish Visionary it doesn't do anything when it hits the board and when hit by CoCo it doesn't provide +1/+1 counter to the other creature entering the battlefield at the same time. Too slow and too clunky to warrant its spot in the 75.
But like @ZEUS1478526 pointed out on the previous page, it could work in a shell where it's paired with Bramblewood Paragon and Joraga Warcaller where you can really take advantage of the +1/+1 counters to quickly buff your elven warrior army.
We can play it on turn 2 and then reap the benefits on every subsequent turn. Scry is very good as it allows us to filter through our deck and put whatever we don't need to the bottom. Playing Elvish Visionary with this on board for 1GG to draw two card feels great. Especially since it's a "on cast" trigger which means even if they counter it, we still get to draw the card off Bestiary.
Eidolon of Rhetoric slows them down considerably though a bit slow.
Cheeri0s relies on Grapeshot so our old pal Burrenton Forge-Tender comes in handy.Never mind, BFT only blocks one copy.
That said, this is all hypothetical without any numbers or testing backing it up, so perhaps it's not as dreadful as I'm making it out to be
You need to link the invite url. The link posted doesn't work for me
If you see a lot of Living End and All is Dust where you play, Tajuru Preserver is a completely legit option.