It's great with Heritage Druid + Elite as it would fetch 3 basics. It would work in a mono coloured list to effectively thin your library but GB/GW/Abzan lists don't have enough basics (3-4) to make it worthwhile.
Depends on what kind of Tron you're up against. GR one threatens Pyroclasm on T2 whereas GB/GW aren't that problematic. I'd have gone for Archdruid in most cases. Even if they Pyroclasm you, you had another land in your hand which would've allowed you to cast Lead on T3 if you got wiped. Otherwise you cast Thoughtseize on T3 to see what you're up against and then keep your CoCo up.
EDIT: Monastery Siege is a favourite card of mine and serves in many ways in the deck.
Usually it can be played turn 2 and it protects me against decay discard and burn maybe also against storm if they have to pay 2 more for each copy of grapshot, but i'm not sure. And it may serve as a card draw engine to recover faster than the opponent or get a win con faster. Even lategame it is not a dead card.
Siege is indeed a good card but it doesn't work that way against Grapeshot. It costs them 2 more to target you with the original spell but all other copies aren't cast. They're simply put onto stack.
You should never play Thoughtseize on T1. Most of the problematic cards such as boardwipes can only come on T3/4 which means you want to be casting Thoughtseize on T2/T3.
Great deck idea. What are your thoughts on Darksteel Reactor? I'm not sure if it fits into any of the current shells but with the help of Dismantle you'd only need 10 counters on it to win upon resolution. Will definitely keep following the deck. Always had a soft spot for any counter based shenanigans so this deck is right up my alley.
It can absolutely win games and here are some of the pros and cons of it:
Pros:
- Costs 3 mana which means we can play it T2 to start generating value asap
- We're an aggro-combo deck. The scry it provides allows us to filter our draws depending on what we need at the moment.
- Our 1CMC slot is very dense. Pokedex turns all of our 1 drops into Visionaries. It's also on cast trigger which means we draw a card even they counter it.
- With enough mana we can chain creatures into more draws into more creatures.
- Because we draw cards (and scry), we get to see the sideboard cards unlike Lead/CoCo which put them to the bottom.
Cons:
- It does nothing when it hits the board. Needs a follow up or waiting until next turn to generate value.
- Worse topdeck than Lead/CoCo.
- Less effective against decks running artifact removal such as BGx/Grixis (eg. Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay).
- Mana intensive.
This is just what I gathered from my own testing with it. If anyone else has anything more to add, please do.
I think CoCo is a bad choice for this deck. We can only get G from Mox Opal and I'd rather not rely on that. It also puts all noncreature cards on the bottom which means any Grapeshots, Noxious Revivals or SB card we might need, are gone for the rest of the game. Besides CoCo greatly increases our variance as it has a chance of completely fizzling whereas Outcome will always draw us cards if we have some permanents on the battlefield.
1-2 - On the draw - Junk
Game 1 was a keep of Sram, 2 lands, 3 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. T1 he discarded my Sram, I drew a Paladin, played Visions and passed while he played Goyf on his T2. I start chaining cheeri0s but couldn't go off though I did draw another Paladin. He [card=Abrupt Decay]decayed my Paladin on T3 but it wasn't enough. Played the one I drew and combo'd for the win. Game 2 I had to mulligan down to 5, early discard and Path took care of my engine. Game 3 I was even more unlucky as I had to mulligan to 4 where I kept two cheeri0s, Mox Opal and a Path. Discard took my Path and Ghost Quarters dealt with my lands to stall long enough until he drew a Scooze and a Rhino.
Perhaps Leylines would be a better SB choice to negate their discard spells. But as with Mardu matchup I played against last Friday, it's a tough matchup when facing both removal and discard.
2-1 - On the draw - Kiki Chord Nahiri
Game 1 he has no interaction and I win on T3. Game 2 I kept fizzling with cheeri0s, drawing nothing but lands. Raging Ravine along with Qasali Pridemage took care of me. Game 3 he started with a tapped Overgrown Tomb which meant no Path or bluffed Bolt. Had to use Grapeshot early to kill his Kataki but eventually combo'd off on T4 with the help of Noxious Revival to retrieve Grapeshot.
2-1 - On the draw - Merfolk
Game 1 T3 combo with zero interaction. Game 2 was similar to Kiki Chord game 2 as I kept fizzling on cheeri0s draws. Having Hallowed Fountain in play also enabled her islandwalk so my 2/7 Paladin and Sram were of no use. Game 3 she was off to a slow start and I combo'd on T4.
2-1 - On the draw - Eldrazi Tron
This one I dreaded the most as I knew that resolved Chalice of the Void is extremely hard to beat. Game 1 went exactly this way. T1 pass into T2 Matter Reshaper and Chalice on 0. I had a Sram which meant that I could still draw off cheeri0s even though they all got countered. Was trying to dig for that lone copy of Hurkyl's but unsuccessfully.
Game 2 I kept a hand with Sram, Echoing Truth, Mox Opal, 2 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. I start off with Serum Visions which draws me a Noxious Revival and I pass the turn. He plays a land and passes. I could've played Sram on T2 but I decided to pass and leave mana up for Truth in case he played a Chalice. His T2 he plays a land and Chalice on 0. I bounce it with Truth EoT and follow it up with Sram, Mox and two cheeri0s on my T3. Unfortunately I blanked on the draws and he followed up with a Chalice on 2. This prevented me from using Noxious Revival on the Echoing Truth. What followed was a Chalice on 0. Unable to cast any cheeri0s or Echoing Truth I started beating down with 2/8 Sram. I got really lucky as he proceeded to draw nothing but lands for the next 6-7 turns whereas I eventually drew a Fragmentize to destroy the Chalice on 2, used Noxious to bring back Truth and bounce his other Chalice and combo off for the win.
Game 3 I saw all 3 copies of Path to Exile to deal with his Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher and Walking Ballista. Luckily there were no Chalices this game and I beat him down with 2 Paladins and a Sram (buffed by trusty Bone Axes!).
I'd say this matchup is favoured for us as long as there is no Chalice involved. Sram is much better than Paladin due to the "on cast" trigger rather than ETB for cheeri0s.
Overall I love the deck. Janky, linear and very unfair
I have a question regarding 2nd copy of our engine. Let's say we play a Paladin on T2 with 2 lands in play and have another copy in our hand along with 2-3 cheeri0s. Do we play a cheeri0 or two straight away or do we wait another turn, play the second copy of Paladin and then start playing cheeri0s? Whats the correct sequence of plays?
I think I was too hasty today and wanted to combo off too fast especially when faced against decks with less removal. This led to situations where I had 1-2 engines on the board but no gas to trigger them.
Aye, that's one thing I've noticed as well. Leyline isn't that effective against us if we manage to go off as we're able to eventually draw a card that deals with it. Something like Eidolon of Rhetoric or Spirit of the Labyrinth are far more problematic.
Coiling Oracle here I come, UG elves are real. Lets go!
This one looks interesting. Doesn't work on dorks but it cheapens Visionary, Elite, Archdruid and Ezuri.
Siege is indeed a good card but it doesn't work that way against Grapeshot. It costs them 2 more to target you with the original spell but all other copies aren't cast. They're simply put onto stack.
I'm not sure if any of them are really a good mainboard fit. If they land an Eidolon, we need an answer in our hand to deal with it before we go off.
Pros:
- Costs 3 mana which means we can play it T2 to start generating value asap
- We're an aggro-combo deck. The scry it provides allows us to filter our draws depending on what we need at the moment.
- Our 1CMC slot is very dense. Pokedex turns all of our 1 drops into Visionaries. It's also on cast trigger which means we draw a card even they counter it.
- With enough mana we can chain creatures into more draws into more creatures.
- Because we draw cards (and scry), we get to see the sideboard cards unlike Lead/CoCo which put them to the bottom.
Cons:
- It does nothing when it hits the board. Needs a follow up or waiting until next turn to generate value.
- Worse topdeck than Lead/CoCo.
- Less effective against decks running artifact removal such as BGx/Grixis (eg. Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay).
- Mana intensive.
This is just what I gathered from my own testing with it. If anyone else has anything more to add, please do.
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Artifacts (24):
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
Spells (13):
2 Grapeshot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Noxious Revival
4 Retract
3 Serum Visions
2 Swan Song
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Windswept Heath
3 Echoing Truth
2 Fragmentize
3 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Path to Exile
4 Silence
Considering the meta game, I was pretty lucky with my matchups. Elves, Merfolk and Kiki Chord were very light on removal allowing me to do my thing.
2-0 - On the draw - Abzan Elves
T3 win both games. Game 2 went Essence Warden T1 into T2 Elvish Mystic, Heritage Druid and Elvish Archdruid. I Pathed one Elvish Archdruid EoT T2 and he played two more on T3 but it wasn't enough as I combo'd off on T3.
In: 2x Silence, 2x Echoing Truth, 3x Path to Exile
Out: 1x Grapeshot, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Cathar's Shield, 2x Accorder's Shield, 1x Hurkyl's Recall
1-2 - On the draw - Junk
Game 1 was a keep of Sram, 2 lands, 3 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. T1 he discarded my Sram, I drew a Paladin, played Visions and passed while he played Goyf on his T2. I start chaining cheeri0s but couldn't go off though I did draw another Paladin. He [card=Abrupt Decay]decayed my Paladin on T3 but it wasn't enough. Played the one I drew and combo'd for the win. Game 2 I had to mulligan down to 5, early discard and Path took care of my engine. Game 3 I was even more unlucky as I had to mulligan to 4 where I kept two cheeri0s, Mox Opal and a Path. Discard took my Path and Ghost Quarters dealt with my lands to stall long enough until he drew a Scooze and a Rhino.
Perhaps Leylines would be a better SB choice to negate their discard spells. But as with Mardu matchup I played against last Friday, it's a tough matchup when facing both removal and discard.
In: 3x Silence, 3x Path to Exile, 1x Fragmentize
Out: 3x Cathar's Shield, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Swan Song, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Hurkyl's Recall
2-1 - On the draw - Kiki Chord Nahiri
Game 1 he has no interaction and I win on T3. Game 2 I kept fizzling with cheeri0s, drawing nothing but lands. Raging Ravine along with Qasali Pridemage took care of me. Game 3 he started with a tapped Overgrown Tomb which meant no Path or bluffed Bolt. Had to use Grapeshot early to kill his Kataki but eventually combo'd off on T4 with the help of Noxious Revival to retrieve Grapeshot.
In: 3x Path to Exile, 2x Silence, 1x Echoing Truth, 1x Fragmentize
Out: 3x Accorder's Shield, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Hurkyl's Recall, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Grapeshot
2-1 - On the draw - Merfolk
Game 1 T3 combo with zero interaction. Game 2 was similar to Kiki Chord game 2 as I kept fizzling on cheeri0s draws. Having Hallowed Fountain in play also enabled her islandwalk so my 2/7 Paladin and Sram were of no use. Game 3 she was off to a slow start and I combo'd on T4.
In: 2x Path to Exile, 2x Fragmentize, 2x Silence, 1x Echoing Truth
Out: 2x Swan Song, 2x Cathar's Shield, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Hurkyl's Recall, 1x Serum Visions.
2-1 - On the draw - Eldrazi Tron
This one I dreaded the most as I knew that resolved Chalice of the Void is extremely hard to beat. Game 1 went exactly this way. T1 pass into T2 Matter Reshaper and Chalice on 0. I had a Sram which meant that I could still draw off cheeri0s even though they all got countered. Was trying to dig for that lone copy of Hurkyl's but unsuccessfully.
Game 2 I kept a hand with Sram, Echoing Truth, Mox Opal, 2 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. I start off with Serum Visions which draws me a Noxious Revival and I pass the turn. He plays a land and passes. I could've played Sram on T2 but I decided to pass and leave mana up for Truth in case he played a Chalice. His T2 he plays a land and Chalice on 0. I bounce it with Truth EoT and follow it up with Sram, Mox and two cheeri0s on my T3. Unfortunately I blanked on the draws and he followed up with a Chalice on 2. This prevented me from using Noxious Revival on the Echoing Truth. What followed was a Chalice on 0. Unable to cast any cheeri0s or Echoing Truth I started beating down with 2/8 Sram. I got really lucky as he proceeded to draw nothing but lands for the next 6-7 turns whereas I eventually drew a Fragmentize to destroy the Chalice on 2, used Noxious to bring back Truth and bounce his other Chalice and combo off for the win.
Game 3 I saw all 3 copies of Path to Exile to deal with his Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher and Walking Ballista. Luckily there were no Chalices this game and I beat him down with 2 Paladins and a Sram (buffed by trusty Bone Axes!).
I'd say this matchup is favoured for us as long as there is no Chalice involved. Sram is much better than Paladin due to the "on cast" trigger rather than ETB for cheeri0s.
In: 3x Echoing Truth, 3x Path to Exile, 2x Fragmentize
Out: 3x Cathar's Shield, 2x Swan Song, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Hurkyl's Recall
Overall I love the deck. Janky, linear and very unfair
I have a question regarding 2nd copy of our engine. Let's say we play a Paladin on T2 with 2 lands in play and have another copy in our hand along with 2-3 cheeri0s. Do we play a cheeri0 or two straight away or do we wait another turn, play the second copy of Paladin and then start playing cheeri0s? Whats the correct sequence of plays?
I think I was too hasty today and wanted to combo off too fast especially when faced against decks with less removal. This led to situations where I had 1-2 engines on the board but no gas to trigger them.