I want to highlight this post because its the perfect example of why constant banning is bad:
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
I'm a little confused. I certainly see you're argument for the first paragraph but how does Simian Spirit Guide limit design space? What do you mean by that?
Valakut is just fine. Ape is the offender here incase you missed that earlier.
Ad Nauseam is 2% of the meta, and cannot win before turn 4. If you can't interact either by discard or racing or counterspells, you deserve to lose to your own durlde.
Just to be clear because I've seen it a couple of times in this thread and I want to correct it. Ad Nauseam CAN win before turn 4. It has a line to a turn 3 win.
Turn 1: land drop
Turn 2: Land drop, pentad Prism (2 counters)
Turn 3: land drop, simian spirit guide. produce six mana (2 black, 1 white), cast angel's grace, cast ad nauseam. Draw your entire Deck. Exile the other three simians from your deck, cast lightning storm for a lethal amount of damage.
It's not perfect and it's far from consistent in my experience (which is anecdotal and i definitely have no hard data to show for it) but it is possible.
That said i find the call for SSG to be banned unwarrented until it provides a degenerate deck that has consistent results and breaks the turn 4 rule, which at this point doesn't exist in modern.
As I said earlier and will keep arguing, the problem with the update was not the bans. It was the communication. It CONTINUES to be the communication, or lack thereof, at the core of almost all Standard and Modern issues. Especially Modern issues. Because Wizards is so insistent on opaque format management, players have no idea what to expect. Of course, bans are the primary problem on everyone's minds. Looking over this thread, I've seen ban suggestions for most top and low tier decks with previously reasonable users plunging into Wizards-induced ban mania. If Wizards gave better information about bans, Modern direction, their view of format health, etc., then this would be mitigated.
Instead, the last major format update/article we got was last April. It was a good article, yes, but it's inexcusable that Magic's second largest constructed format has gone without a public health check-in since April 2016. This is also to say nothing of Wizards' inability to get generic answers into the format so we can internally regulate instead of depending on bans. But regular communication would presumably address even that. Of course, communication isn't the only problem with Modern. It just starts there. Ban policy, reprint policy, testing policy, etc. are all major, ongoing problems too.
My personal, non-alarmist promise is that I'm done with Modern if we get to 2018 and 2 of the following 4 scenarios have happened:
1. Another ban due to bad internal policing cards.
2. No unbans.
3. Failure to publish at least two articles on the format's overall health, direction, and regulation.
4. Failure to print or reprint at least one more Modern answer like Push.
If Wizards does any 2 of those 4 things by 2018, let alone 3 or 4, it just means thr format isn't for me and I can't have confidence in it. Maybe it's still good for others, but I couldn't enjoy a format that was handled in those regards.
Unfortunately, the only way I can see us getting 3 or 4 is if we, as a community, loudly and clearly state this is something we want and need to have confidence in the company. If the community doesn't rally together and request to demand more communication from wotc we will never get it. it's not in their financial interest to so from their perspective, why take the time. For standard their cash cow sure, but for us who care about modern a format wotc doesn't seem to care about except for the fact it's popular, so they only pay attention to it when something they don't like is happening or something is taking away from standard their favorite child so to say.
so it looks like gx tron is poised to take the top spot with two of it's bad match ups catching the ban hammer. i played like three tron decks in a row just now. umm our decks pretty good against tron
Is it?
Maybe i'm just playing it poorly or hitting the wrong side of varience but i find myself often still losing to tron. They hit they're redundant copies of tron lands before i can actually kill them as i'm far from an aggressive deck and if i spend turns trying to disrupt them while still clocking them i just get stonewalled by a turn 6-7 worldbreaker/wurmcoil/karn/ugin/ostone and back to square one. There's definitely games where i just completely lock them out of tron but i tend to find i'm never able to hold them off long enough to kill them before they make a huge game stabilizing play.
On a different subject Metagame update from Modern nexus and it appears all the variants of our deck are no longer being classified as one. That's disappointing as i'm unsure it accurately represents our share of the metagame but i can't say i'm shocked to see it changed back to how it used to be.
That's fair, but I was one who was burned on getting twins in MM2015 and top is one of the most played cards in commander which was also a focus of EMA so i wouldn't put it or counterbalance past wotc.
And i do hope we get changes but like i posted i imagine modern will say no changes.
the ONLY reason i can see moving up a B&R update is due to Standard bans since it hasn't happened since JTMS and SFM if i'm remembering correctly and wil be extremely relevant to those in PT testing. However that said i imaging this will still be for all formats and my guesses are as follows.
Standard: Emrakul Banned
Modern: Most likely no changes (Though I'd prefera SFM or pre-ordain unban).
Legacy: Top Banned
This is still the january announcement and even without a modern PT this is still the most likely time in my mind for big shakeups in modern besides just the printing of Fatal Push
R1: Lost to Jeskai Control in 3. G1 i coco'd him out of answers and killed him before he could recover. Game 2 and 3 he had T3 anger t4 cryptic t5 verdict t6 Elspeth Sun's Champion both games and i couldn't recover.
R2: beat merfolk in 3. G1 he had 5 lords on turn 3 (curse you marrow reejery). Game 2 i slammed Ghostly prison on 3 and courser on 4 and just out valued him. Game 3 we had 2 minutes left in the round (don't ask me how >.>) and on turn 4 i slammed worship. He conceded on the spot.
R3: beat Grixis Delver in 2. G1 i kept running threats out until the 2nd CoCo finally landed more threats than he could answer. Game 2 i land RIP on turn 2 and we had another slugfest with 2 brimaz tokens eventually taking him from 10 to 0.
R4: Beat 4 Color Dubious challenge. G1 and 2 went the same. We both played 3 flickerwisp effects but my Restoration angels and experience with flickerwisp tricks put me over the edge.
Overall i'm fairly happy with my list so far but it could still definitely use some tuning.
Wow. That is some of the most intense I've seen this thread in a while.
To try to get back on topic, Should I dust off my pre-ordains and or Stoneforge Mystics or does the printing of fatal push mean I shouldn't bother for at least another 3-6 months?
Alright. I remember sheepz words too, but I've found much more success playing 3x wisp than 4 in my meta as x's aren't at their best with night of soul's betrayal, darkblast and golgari charms abound.
It sounds like -1 Splicer +1 arbiter is the easiest switch to make. I'll do that. Without splicer I feel less inclined to run mutavault as well. Sigarda has been on my list of cards to try I just haven't been able to pick one up yet.
Other than Jund and Grixis Control i'm not really expecting anything in particular tonight as my meta tends to be fairly open but prefers Midrange and control to the linear aggro the majority of the format shows.
I'll try to write up a quick FNM report either tonight or tomorrow but Any imput or advice on how to fight a grindy meta with MB and SB cards is welcome.
@darktutorfatal push is dope for sure. Kind of scared about its presence though lol.
@Agua_benta blood baron might be really good going forward. 5 mana is kind. If roughy though?
I played 2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa in my sideboard of BW tokens when i was piloting that as a secondary deck and it's fantastic against Jund, Abzan and ESPECIALLY Grixis. Grixis needs 2 bolts to kill if and it swings races dramatically. Having protection from the 2 hard colors of removal in modern shouldn't be underestimated. If 5 drops are playable in modern right now, I'd throw out testing it on your next stream D&Catmix
I'm a little confused. I certainly see you're argument for the first paragraph but how does Simian Spirit Guide limit design space? What do you mean by that?
Just to be clear because I've seen it a couple of times in this thread and I want to correct it. Ad Nauseam CAN win before turn 4. It has a line to a turn 3 win.
Turn 1: land drop
Turn 2: Land drop, pentad Prism (2 counters)
Turn 3: land drop, simian spirit guide. produce six mana (2 black, 1 white), cast angel's grace, cast ad nauseam. Draw your entire Deck. Exile the other three simians from your deck, cast lightning storm for a lethal amount of damage.
It's not perfect and it's far from consistent in my experience (which is anecdotal and i definitely have no hard data to show for it) but it is possible.
That said i find the call for SSG to be banned unwarrented until it provides a degenerate deck that has consistent results and breaks the turn 4 rule, which at this point doesn't exist in modern.
Unfortunately, the only way I can see us getting 3 or 4 is if we, as a community, loudly and clearly state this is something we want and need to have confidence in the company. If the community doesn't rally together and request to demand more communication from wotc we will never get it. it's not in their financial interest to so from their perspective, why take the time. For standard their cash cow sure, but for us who care about modern a format wotc doesn't seem to care about except for the fact it's popular, so they only pay attention to it when something they don't like is happening or something is taking away from standard their favorite child so to say.
Is it?
Maybe i'm just playing it poorly or hitting the wrong side of varience but i find myself often still losing to tron. They hit they're redundant copies of tron lands before i can actually kill them as i'm far from an aggressive deck and if i spend turns trying to disrupt them while still clocking them i just get stonewalled by a turn 6-7 worldbreaker/wurmcoil/karn/ugin/ostone and back to square one. There's definitely games where i just completely lock them out of tron but i tend to find i'm never able to hold them off long enough to kill them before they make a huge game stabilizing play.
On a different subject Metagame update from Modern nexus and it appears all the variants of our deck are no longer being classified as one. That's disappointing as i'm unsure it accurately represents our share of the metagame but i can't say i'm shocked to see it changed back to how it used to be.
link here http://modernnexus.com/modern-metagame-breakdown-dec-16/
I'm pretty shocked
And i do hope we get changes but like i posted i imagine modern will say no changes.
Standard: Emrakul Banned
Modern: Most likely no changes (Though I'd prefera SFM or pre-ordain unban).
Legacy: Top Banned
This is still the january announcement and even without a modern PT this is still the most likely time in my mind for big shakeups in modern besides just the printing of Fatal Push
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Restoration Angel
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Tectonic Edge
3x Temple Garden
2x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
4x AEther Vial
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Worship
R1: Lost to Jeskai Control in 3. G1 i coco'd him out of answers and killed him before he could recover. Game 2 and 3 he had T3 anger t4 cryptic t5 verdict t6 Elspeth Sun's Champion both games and i couldn't recover.
R2: beat merfolk in 3. G1 he had 5 lords on turn 3 (curse you marrow reejery). Game 2 i slammed Ghostly prison on 3 and courser on 4 and just out valued him. Game 3 we had 2 minutes left in the round (don't ask me how >.>) and on turn 4 i slammed worship. He conceded on the spot.
R3: beat Grixis Delver in 2. G1 i kept running threats out until the 2nd CoCo finally landed more threats than he could answer. Game 2 i land RIP on turn 2 and we had another slugfest with 2 brimaz tokens eventually taking him from 10 to 0.
R4: Beat 4 Color Dubious challenge. G1 and 2 went the same. We both played 3 flickerwisp effects but my Restoration angels and experience with flickerwisp tricks put me over the edge.
Overall i'm fairly happy with my list so far but it could still definitely use some tuning.
To try to get back on topic, Should I dust off my pre-ordains and or Stoneforge Mystics or does the printing of fatal push mean I shouldn't bother for at least another 3-6 months?
It sounds like -1 Splicer +1 arbiter is the easiest switch to make. I'll do that. Without splicer I feel less inclined to run mutavault as well. Sigarda has been on my list of cards to try I just haven't been able to pick one up yet.
1x Blade Splicer
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Flickerwisp
3x Leonin Arbiter
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Restoration Angel
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Tectonic Edge
3x Temple Garden
2x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
4x AEther Vial
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Worship
Other than Jund and Grixis Control i'm not really expecting anything in particular tonight as my meta tends to be fairly open but prefers Midrange and control to the linear aggro the majority of the format shows.
I'll try to write up a quick FNM report either tonight or tomorrow but Any imput or advice on how to fight a grindy meta with MB and SB cards is welcome.
Well of the options posted i think Blood Baron is by far the one worth testing. Helps that it's half a tic on MTGO
I played 2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa in my sideboard of BW tokens when i was piloting that as a secondary deck and it's fantastic against Jund, Abzan and ESPECIALLY Grixis. Grixis needs 2 bolts to kill if and it swings races dramatically. Having protection from the 2 hard colors of removal in modern shouldn't be underestimated. If 5 drops are playable in modern right now, I'd throw out testing it on your next stream D&Catmix