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  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Tanarax »
    Thank you for the positive encouragement.

    I played the bounce list again last night on xmage for a second 5-0 stint against random rated opponents. Last night however all my opponents were running rogue lists and I didn't get to play against any Teir 1 decks.

    So far I have noticed that it seems that when I'm on the play its best to bounce lands and when I'm on the draw I usually end up bouncing their threats. And it has been very, very nice to always have a late game bounce in hand to deal with pesky permanents like Ensnaring Bridge.

    I had someone Thoughtseize Part the Waterveil and then Surgical it, so I had to win with 10 separate attacks with my nexus since I couldn't seem to draw Jace. Since then I decided to put back in Thassa, having that Plan C win con available every hand is a must. Like a gun or a fire extinguisher: Id rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

    I also had a hand where planting a Howling Mine on turn 4 and bouncing their land for the third time happened. It felt pretty good to plant an engine and still make them repeat their first turn for the fourth time.... so good that I have to add a second Howling Mine. Testing will likely push me back toward running a full set of 4 because the whole "they get to draw first" is a little moot when they are stuck replaying their first land over and over. It costing one less mana than Dictate is pretty huge when all I am trying to do is keep drawing bounce spells until its time to start warping.

    Is there another way I can bounce lands? Am I stuck with just boomerang, Eye of Nowhere and Cryptic Command? I keep thinking of old bounce I used to play and when I look it up ont he gatherer, it's all nonland permants. I would love to add more 2-mana bounce instead of the Spreading Seas

    I believe the -1 Serum Visions is temporary until I decide what else to cut. It pains me to not run 4.

    This build incentivizes me to fit my 3 Chalice of the Void back into the sideboard, but I haven't found the space yet.

    Please if any of you have some free time; test yourself some bounce-turns and see how you like it. I do appreciate feedback from any of you with an opinion, but your words will carry more weight if you sleeve up some bounce for a few hands before you get back to me. That way I can multiply how much testing im getting in.

    Hey so when I first picked up the deck in like 2013//14, I bought a playset of Eye of Nowhere to complement my Boomerangs and try to kill the manabase. Since then I have switched to a mix of Boomerang with Squelch or Nimble Obstructionist. While Eye works fine against...any permanent...I would suggest that the cantrip counters to activated and triggered abilities is much better. These can poop on manlands, fetchlands, and Westvale Abbey etc.

    I can get behind the quad Boomerang, but back it up with some counter play.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    This list looks terrible. I have to read the article, but this feels like a list by someone who hasn't played the deck a ton.
    Edit, after seeing the videos:
    Elixir is terrible, siding in remand is funny given recent discussions in this thread. The side board is a train wreck. No mikokoro is also not a good thing, it is definitly not 'win more'.

    Honestly, Mikokoro is the reason I have turned many losses into a win. Even at the effective cost of 3mana per turn, when I don't have any other mines in play, Mikokoro is the only thing keeping me in the game and propelling me to the win.

    The same can no longer be said for Elixir. Though 3 mana isn't too much for gaining 5 life, I think we can do better. I have no idea what's going on with the sideboard in that deck. Chalice of the Void is too damn important to leave out of the 75. It wins games by itself.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Tanarax »

    And he somehow found space for 4 Opt, 4 Serum Visions, and even a single Sleight of Hand. giving him 9 one-mana cantrips!

    He should pretty much always have one on turn 1. And will be able to dig an extra couple of extra cards deeper and faster than most of us are used to (at the expense of his early interaction, mines and lands). It would seem he is leaning heavily on the turbo-xerox rule to fit them in but it looks like it works just fine.

    I don't understand how a deck like this survives the early game against Aggro and Combo while relying solely on 3x total Gigadrowse and 4x Spreading Seas in the 75. This whole thing seems so top heavy I can't help but imagine that this deck will goldfish until Turn 4 when the opponent plays a win with Stubborn Denial backup. I could totally get into reserving half the sideboard for matches with red though.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Pixeleen »
    Pretty spot-on with the matchups in my experience.
    • Merfolk isn't 100% a lost cause, but it has become a pretty bad matchup ever since they've started playing more counters. It gets better if you splash for removal, but you have to draw it.
    • Burn isn't great, but better with the white splash. I would guess that people replacing their Eidolons with Shrines of the Burning Rage is overall good for us. Leyline and Chalice are the bomb; Mine, Exhaustion and Gigadrowse are bad.
    • Death's Shadow has game against any deck that isn't completely tuned to beat it, that's why it's so popular. Chalice is good either way, but I especially like the chances that the white splash has against it: Leyline is great, Path is great and Supreme Verdict gets around Stubborn Denial in Grixis (plus if you're really worried, you can go even harder with Celestial Purge or Blessed Alliance).
    • Elves is indeed a coin toss (speaking of which, going first is pretty important), but one that gets a lot more favorable with Supreme Verdict. Landing good Exhaustions is probably the most important thing in that matchup. You also have to be somewhat wary of Rec Sage.
    • Affinity is bad, lots of single target removal and Stony Silence helps though. On the play, you can just put Chalice on 0 turn 1 (if you draw it later, you might not need it anymore but on 2 it still shuts down Affinity's most threatening cards), but I wouldn't bring it in on the draw.
    • Storm is rough and doesn't get much better if you choose to play Remand. Chalice though!
    • Ad Nauseam is awful, but once again, Chalice shines (noticing a trend).
    • Your description of Vizier combo is very accurate. If they go for the Township plan, Turns should win. While we don't care about infinite life thanks to Inkmoth, if you have nothing going on, they're just going to scry the kill combo to the top.
    • Titanshift is about denying mana (Exhaustion is excellent), Leylines also improve the matchup.
    • And most everything else is indeed good, most importantly (in terms of meta share) Control and Tron, which is why you don't need specific sideboard cards for these matchups.

    I really love this breakdown for the meta. If the Primer was regularly updated I would submit this response.

    Anyways. How well do you think Authority of the Consuls would fare in our poor matchups? It's certainly capable of buying one turn or two off of Elves and Merfolk. The type of Burn build might not be effected at all, however Affinity sure would.

    Now that Shrine of Burning Rage is hot (pun intended), it makes me want to take copies of Squelch out of my sideboard even more. I'm still debating on using that or Nimble Obstructionist as my go-to for blocking combos, planeswalkers, and fetchlands.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Pixeleen »
    My GP main event aka Tales of Misfortune and Misery

    Round 1 - 0-2 vs Merfolk
    • Game 1: Oh joy! My first opponent is a Merfolk player with a Pro Tour playmat, who goes first, keeps seven and opens with Island, Aether Vial. He takes an Exhaustion from my hand with turn 3 Vendillion Clique (which actually felt wrong, since I was on track to get mana screwed and had no mine). He gets out multiple lords quickly and I can't stop the beatdown.
    • Sideboard: I didn't note what I boarded out (Commandeer for sure), but I boarded in all sweepers (2 TitI, 2 Supreme Verdicts, Engineered Explosives).
    • Game 2: Mull to 6, my opponent keeps 7. I keep a one lander, but thanks to two Serum Visions, my mana ends up better than in the first game. The card is just amazing. I have two Things and two Supreme Verdicts, which is a bit awkward. He plays Clique on 3 (again), sees both Supreme Verdicts and picks Exhaustion (again; still feels wrong). He Dismembers my first Thing, I have to expend the first Supreme Verdict. I have nothing going on and play Time Warp into open mana, which brings out a Unified Will, unsurprisingly. I manage to flip my second Thing, he bounces it back on attack with Harbinger. I'm at 4 life and have to Supreme Verdict since he also has a Mutavault. He plays two lords and activates Mutavault with his last mana to kill me. Didn't draw one Path to Exile in either game.

    Round 2 - 2-1 vs Mono-Red Burn
    • Game 1: My opponent doesn't seem to be the most serious player and basically straight up tells me he's playing Burn. He's also tired (me too) and allergic to coffee (saddest thing I heard all day). Alright. We both mull to 6, I keep a relatively weak hand. He turns out to be Mono-Red Burn with Vexing Devils. His 6 card hand turns out to be way more effective and I don't draw diddly-squat. I only cast a Gigadrowse that game; it probably would have been worth just concealing all information to be honest.
    • Sideboard: I board out the Mines, Snapcaster (could have been Gigadrowse) and Exhaustion, board in the Leylines, Chalices and the Timely Reinforcements
    • Game 2: I keep a 7 card hand with Leyline. He scoops.
    • Game 3: I keep a 7 card hand with 2 Leylines. He scoops. Mono-Red Burn y'all.

    Round 3 - 0-2 vs Conventional Jund (god why)
    • Game 1: I have a good hand, but my opponent is on Jund and sticks a turn 2 Dark Confidant. With Abrupt Decay and discard he keeps me from landing a mine effect. Cryptic does phenomenal work and Exhaustion/Gigadrowse stall nicely, but I have to deal with a Liliana as well and eventually fall to Huntmaster of the Fells. It's foiled out Jund versus foiled out Taking Turns, we actually have some spectators.
    • Sideboard: I board out 3 Gigadrowse, the mines and a Temporal Mastery, board in the Leylines, the Supreme Verdicts and Timely Reinforcements.
    • Game 2: I keep a full hand with a Leyline (score!), but I draw rather poorly. He's not putting a lot of pressure on me (his 2/3 Tarmogoyf isn't even worth the Path), but eventually he plays Huntmaster and builds up a board. Luckily, I topdeck an Exhaustion which allows me to try and go for turns. And I actually whiff, drawing my other Leylines instead of extra turn spells. I have to pass back to him, he puts me to one life. I have to keep up Cryptic to keep from dying to his two Raging Ravines (have to be ready to tap and bounce the other) and Leyline is the only thing saving me from dying to the Huntmaster trigger. I finally clear the board with Verdict, but I need to get 9 mana for an awakened PtW since I've already played two and my ninth land is a Flooded Strand. He finds his single Maelstrom Pulse, kills the Leyline and wins with Collective Brutality. Sad loss, considering I had the Leyline and he boarded strangely (took out Lightning Bolt but kept in other creature removal).

    Round 4 - 0-2 vs Infect (what have I done to deserve this)
    • Game 1: Yeah. It's actual GU Infect. In 2017. He mulls to 6, goes first, has turn 1 Noble Hierarch, turn 2 Blighted Agent, Blossoming Defense against my Path aaaand I'm dead turn 3. Aye.
    • Sideboard: Again, not sure what I boarded out, but Commandeer for sure. Brought in the 3 Chalices and EE.
    • Game 2: It's been to long since I last played against Infect. I totally forgot how blisteringly fast it really is. I honestly should have just mulliganed till I found Chalice or multiple Paths. He goes Hierarch into Agent again and Spell Pierces my miracle'd Temporal Mastery. Once more, I die turn 3.

    Round 5 - 1-1-1 vs GB Tron
    • Game 1: It's Tron. Actual, classic honest-to-god tentacle-free Tron. Should be a good matchup, especially since I start with a Gemstone Caverns, but my hand happens to be weak against Tron. He plays World Breaker on my Mine and I see no better winning line than casting Time Warp on 5 mana without a mine. I proceed to get a sequence of 100% perfect topdecks and suddenly I'm back in the game with a Dictate, a Mine and a good number of lands. In the end, however, I have to pass back to him and he casts an Ulamog and gets another World Breaker into his hand with Ancient Stirrings. Thankfully, my opponent isn't completely familiar with my deck (not surprising) and exiles one land and the Mine with Ulamog, leaving me the chance to combo. I'm able to do so and awaken a land with my last PtW, only to then whiff. I have to pass back, he plays the Worldbreaker and exiles my awakened land, leaving me unable to win. I had drawn more than half my deck and didn't see even a single Gigadrowse or Exhaustion. Terribly unlucky.
    • Sideboard: Board out 2 Paths, board in my 2 Stony Silences.
    • Game 2: I have to mulligan to 5 and keep a hand that has absolutely nothing but an active Commandeer. I'm ready to just accept my loss to a Worldbreaker, but turn 4 he actually casts Karn! I take the Karn, but he has a Nature's Claim for my Dictate of Kruphix (I'm actually hellbent now). I use Karn to take him off Tron, but I'm down one game and can't risk having him topdeck a missing Tron piece and deal with my Karn, so I can't just go for the plus but rather have to yo-yo Karn. Being in complete topdeck mode and mana screwed I'm lacking backup and can't get a winning extra turn with Karn. Two of my friends were playing Tron at the event and in their testing they had found that going first was the mirror's main deciding factor since you could land Karn first. And sure enough, having Karn before the Tron player does win me the game, but my opponent tries to find an out for quite a few turns before scooping and now we're running low on time.
    • Game 3: We both mull to 6 and I keep a one lander with a Serum Visions, a Howling Mine, a Stony Silence and a barely active Commandeer. He starts with an egg, I draw a blue card off Serum Visions and put a fetch to the top. Turn 2 he cracks the egg and casts Thoughtseize, which I Commandeer. His hand is just lands, artifacts and a Warping Wail, which I take. On my turn 2, I fetch for Hallowed Fountain and bring the game to a screeching halt with Stony Silence. The Howling Mine puts me in the driver seat, but being low on cards, it takes too long for me to find a PtW to go for the win. Time is called and during the game's fourth extra turn, I pass back to him. He's entirely tapped out, under Stony Silence with no recourse, I'm representing Cryptic and guaranteed lethal on the follow turn with multiple mine effects. Even though a draw eliminates both of us from the tournament, he ends his turn, tying the match. Really interesting match, but a depressing result, especially overall.

    A couple of lines were arguably not optimal in hindsight, but I played the matches without egregious mistakes, so going 1-3-1 due to bad matchups and loads of mulligans was certainly disappointing. I'm not sure if I have any major gripes with the decklist right now, I assume it would have done better against more expected meta decks. I'll freely admit that I am a pretty weak deckbuilder in Constructed, which is why I'd be particularly interested in how the blue-white list played for purklefluff in the side events.

    How would you feel about including several copies of Swan Song in your 75? I've used it with great effect against Infect. I also haven't had a chance to play Nimble Obstructionist against Tron but it seems quite effective against all of the cards that gave you trouble in that matchup. I also mainboard 2x copies of Redirect as a hedge against combo and aggro decks that use mana dorks and burn//buff spells.

    I think you may have convinced me of the white splash. Leyline and Verdict seems STRONG for this particular meta. Leyline being more...timeless....*puns are fun
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Pixeleen »
    I did some late GP testing yesterday with the updated list. Looks like I probably will in fact play the 1 Commandeer, I managed to snag a turn 2 Cathartic Reunion from Dredge, that was absolutely fantastic. I'll edit this post later to include some more thoughts I have on the list. I really want to make a detailed sideboarding plan for the most common matchups.

    Woah woah woah...So they have to discard two...and you get to draw THREE??? Ugh, that's such a sneaky play. Okay maybe I do like Commandeer. Now just need to decide if 1-2 is best. Are there any decks it's awful against?
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from MoosehBoy »
    I will be. I'm testing out a black splash for it, but might end up mono blue.

    I wonder what the mirror match is like..?

    Pack Redirect just in case lol - It's great against discard, Cryptic, Time Warp, and counters. I'm personally looking into Gemstone Caverns and other acceleration so I can get a turn ahead and pull off dopey cards like Boomerang and Recirect.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Dubarrini »
    Quote from purklefluff »
    Thing in the ice, while I love the card, seems in danger of being pushed out by something like ghostly prison, although I do think it's a good secondary wincon in the event of an extraction effect. It's also great against Affinity and decent against burn as a "utility" blocker.

    I love TiTi too, but after enough tests I can say that it doesn't help against our worst matchup: merfolk (snag, dismember, harbinger), burn (block plus bolt), elves (overwhelmed by speed and numbers) and bant spirits (PtE, etb effects) remains almost unwinnable even with 4 TiTi in the board.
    A couple of TiTi are OK against surgical effects, but we can have the same results with more copies of Snapcaster, or 1 jace and 1 Elixir (which also prevent surgical), or Faerie Conclave!

    I've never come across Surgical Extraction this year. I mostly play at my LGS though so it's a small meta. Is the secret out so to speak on those cards? I always thought Extirpate/Surgical were underrated at taking apart meta decks by removing critical playsets.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Brendelton »
    Anyone tried noxious revival or is that just a bad snapcaster mage?

    It's worth a try. If I were to put it in, I'd actually go for more like 3x copies. Snaps are usually run at 2x, but since you can cast Noxious Revival for 2 life, it's far easier to cast. Even if your build doesn't have much G in it, you can still get away with playing it at the cost of leaving yourself open to aggro. Good Luck and tell us how it goes!
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Here's another trick. A lot of players here will never ever leave their Cryptic Commands in the sideboard, seeing them as too valuable in G1. In the case of your deck, you're using Wheels as a draw engine, and As Foretold as a value engine. Your curve is already so high, I think that Dispel, Unsubstantiate, more Remands, Censor again, or any other number of cheap interactive spells would be really beneficial to your G1 stats.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from MoosehBoy »
    Quote from Green Guy »

    The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.

    Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.

    Those are some interesting card selections. I would normally suggest playing dictates or mines over Ancestral Visions, but the play style of your deck is completely different.

    I would recommend Remand over Censor though. Ultimately all we need to do is stall them, so it works nicely to do that against Moses decks, plus it replaces itself.

    In my humble opinion you need more ways to interact with the opponents board state. The first five turns are normally all about interacting with and disrupting your opponent's board state. Merely having everyone discard and draw more isn't going to stop you dying.

    I am interested to hear how the deck works for you though, so once you've played some leagues let us know Smile

    Agreed with this poster's assessment. I don't see any ways to meaningfully interact with aggro decks before they win. Things like 8Whack, Zoo variants, Combo, Affinity, and even Infect all seem to have free G1 wins. Do you have access to Hurkyl's Recall? It's one of the best hate cards we have which is nice in blue. Quite a bit cheaper than By Force, especially when clearing a whole board.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    So is there a reason I shouldn't try out a playset of Nimble Obstructionist? I definitely want to hold up 3mana in basically every game with the option to drop Dictate or this guy. Stuff the bird poops on:

    Expedition Map
    Eidolon of the Great Revel
    ETBs of every variety
    Shenanigans Involving Counters

    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    I wouldn't build my SB that way, anyone know why he did?

    Sideboards are flexible and meta-specific. If you don't agree with my choices, then by all means run whatever you want.

    To be honest I totally forgot about Brutality. It seems like a good fit and so does 1-2x copies of Tasigur/Angler.

    Collective Brutality actually goes incredibly well with Tasigur/Gurmag Angler. Turns can have some trouble filling its graveyard compared to other decks with delve threats, and Brutality is a great way to help enable an early delve threat by ditching 2 cards for free while getting pretty reasonable effects in the process.

    if its not Push, and Brutality that you are playing, the reasons to splash black are limited.

    If you're not playing some combination of Fatal Push, Brutality, and delve threats, then I agree there's not much reason to play with a black splash, as those are the black cards that I feel most help the bad matchups for mono-blue. Those three cards and Engineered Explosives and the entire reason I was splashing.

    I'm still not sure I want to do Push only because I basically NEED Fetchlands

    As for number of fetchlands, you don't actually need that many, as even the non-revolt mode on Push is fine (and I don't think I even Pushed a CMC 3+ creature during the whole tournament). Fetchlands do make delve creatures easier to cast, but I agree that you don't want too painful of a manabase. I've had a reasonable number of games would have completely changed based on a difference of 1 - 3ish life, so it's a tough line to walk.

    That's actually a really important point about the Revolt mode. I suppose in high-tier metas, you really aren't going to see creatures with costs that large outside of Eldrazi Tron. At my LGS there are some jankier brews and decks that still rock Siege Rhino, but I never had an issue wiping any of them out.

    Without bothering to check, I think your list only included 2x Fatal Push, that's hardly an intense investment. If you think this type of deck can get away with only a handful (say 3-6) of Fetchlands, I'm definitely going to try it!!

    ....maybe with an Elixir of Immortality though because even though I don't care about self-mill, I do love the 5+ life.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from idSurge »
    I had skipped on TS, as the life loss is not something I found condusive to the meta I was facing and my desire to see turn's 4 and 5, but IoK was decent.

    Tasigur is good, but he fought with my pet card Temporal Trespass for Delve resources, and with our other win con's I didnt feel he made enough of an impact to stay in Black.

    EDIT: Not sure if Daniel would agree, but imo if its not Push, and Brutality that you are playing, the reasons to splash black are limited.

    To be honest I totally forgot about Brutality. It seems like a good fit and so does 1-2x copies of Tasigur/Angler. I want to try a light splash for those and IoK.

    I'm still not sure I want to do Push only because I basically NEED Fetchlands or at least that lovely manabase that Daniel developed! Thing is, that's a painful manabase, and since the aggro matchup is already an uphill struggle I really REALLY don't want to bolt myself with my landdrops.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    So has anybody tried test matches with some numbers of Gurmag Angler or Tasigur? How about with Maindeck IoK or Thoughtseize?
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
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