It's been a while since I posted here but I've been playing death and taxes for the past few years. I'm kind of sad how fast most people have turned the vialess deck away. If people haven't I would highly recommend reading the report he posted about the deck on reddit. I've been playing the deck for the past few weeks and don't think I'll be putting it down any time soon.
I don't think anyone is pooh-poohing the GP Vancouver Top4 pilot or their list so much as saying it is a very uncommon/weird choice to go 0xVial. As such, new players jumping into D&T on the (Budget?) No-Vial-Bandwagon are going to get a lot of blank stares or eye-rolls when they ask things like "So what are the best No-Vial D&T sideboard choices?" or "What should my No-Vial D&T flex-slots be in this meta?" and especially "I think No-Vial is the way to go and will stand the test of time."
Another thing to remember is that the D&T archetype is notorious for flash-in-the-pan decklists. One good result doesn't shift everyone's card choices and/or playstyles overnight; for example this list didn't convince everyone here to buy up Mulldrifter and Drowner of Hope. That's why one Top4 (even at an event as large as GP Vancouver) isn't going to convince everyone here to sell of their Aether Vials and buy up Shining Shoals.
Regarding Vial in particualar, most of the folks in this forum like it because of the shenanigans it enables: Leonin fetch-killing, Wisp land-grabbing, targeted-removal-fizzling, and attacker-blanking, not to mention the fact that cheating on mana allows more aggressive land-destruction. To many players, those lines are a major draw of the deck, since the deck just edges closer and closer to a Monowhite-Humans Stompy deck without those sorts of plays. Granted, the No-Vial build makes up for some of this flickerbusiness with a full 4xResto and 4xHeights but there's still a much larger emphasis on brick-walling with Omens and hoping you can stomp through using combat tricks almost exclusively on your own turn. But don't assume the lack of fanboying means those lists are being completely dismissed/ignored; if it becomes clear the meta is super-soft to a more linear D&T style then even us Vial-lovers will start swapping out Vials for Anthems or Omens, albeit in a grumbling feet-dragging fashion. One Top4 is not enough to start the Vial-Exodus, however.
The "We're not a Stompy/Zoo deck" sentiment is essentially the main reason No-Vial and Wescoe lists get relatively little love here.
This is the best post I've seen in a while. I wish we had a "Vial-less D&T" section in the primer just so we could put this block of text at the top of it.
I honestly dont even think hes that great, he gets to grind more and he gets more publicity but his lists has always been a lean towards white weenie rather than control.
For me at least, Death and Taxes has always been control, disrupt as you incrementally threaten. White weenie is just beats, and stompy can beat better and red can race better so i never really cared for any of his lists except for Legacy where he plays the more traditional DnT with his brand of flavor.
DnT especially is a type of control deck that requires you to understand fully how other decks work due to the nature of cards like sculler, TKS, and revokers. I wouldnt really trust someone who plays -only- white to have an amazing grasp of DnT.
Is there anyone who you would consider to be an "authority" on Death and Taxes? I don't get the chance to play nearly enough games to playtest many many variations, so it's important to me to have a source I can rely on to provide an experienced, skilled take on the deck at any given time.
for modern i cant think of anyone except the regulars in this thread. Jendo and Catmix alwaays tries to innovate so you can look at their streams and formulate your own opinion on what works for you.
this deck in modern seems to have many variations that just sticks to people's tendencies. I for one cannot move away from EnT, every time i try any other variation i miss the scullers and processing shenanigans.
Why does the conventional wisdom disagree with Craig Wescoe, a prominent professional famous for playing in this archetype? What does the conventional wisdom know that he doesn't? Or perhaps on the flip side, what does he know that we don't?
I honestly dont even think hes that great, he gets to grind more and he gets more publicity but his lists has always been a lean towards white weenie rather than control.
For me at least, Death and Taxes has always been control, disrupt as you incrementally threaten. White weenie is just beats, and stompy can beat better and red can race better so i never really cared for any of his lists except for Legacy where he plays the more traditional DnT with his brand of flavor.
DnT especially is a type of control deck that requires you to understand fully how other decks work due to the nature of cards like sculler, TKS, and revokers. I wouldnt really trust someone who plays -only- white to have an amazing grasp of DnT.
I'm new to DnT (was a fish player) and I think this deck looks fun. Definitely a lot of card draw, but I wish there was a better finisher or equipments.
Its probably just personal preference but I'm just never fond of lists that just beats down, I think disruption is important past Thalia and Arbiters
Hey guys! I'm new here.
I play Eldrazi taxes in paper. My local metagame looks like tons of grixis tron and bgx.
My list looks standard. I play 23 lands 2 smashers and 2 lingering souls in main deck.
So I have a problem. It is impossible to beat grixis. I always go 0-2 or 1-2. Usually I win games where my opponent has no answers for smasher. Otherwise it is really hard. I choose 2 rest in peace as my sideboard options to interrupt spell-snap cycling and 2 spellskite/ selfless spirit.
What should I try to have more chances vs grixis decks?
I used to struggle against grixis but with a few tweaks ive been fine. I dropped spellskites for 2 more selfless spirits because they put a clock and protects against sweepers, they do what spellskites already does but better since their removal of choice now is fatal push instead of bolts which spellskites used to be able to soak up and live through.
What you do lose without skites are K-command protection, so you cant put all your eggs in the aether vial basket against these decks.
Boarding in RiP is the correct way to do it though, it also ruins delve.
For some reason I can't stop laughing at this. Fantastic
E&T is strongest and at its best when you are abusing wasteland strangler. it's the cheesiest
"Getting them" with vialed in arbiter
Dominating their board presence with a million blinks with Displacer
Processing Wisp or Sculler exiles
Processing suspend spells
Blinking arbiter to make em pay the 2nd time and failing to
and the MTGO special of not knowing how the card works so they fetch into oblivion with no prompt to pay arbiter tax
These are the joys of this deck
For paper, the body language opponents make when you pull that off, you can tell. Its like you just murdered their hopes and dreams
I guess that the point is that GQ'ing early also taxes you with less mana. You're right about timing of removal spell, after combat to prevento pump/protec, but in some cases, you may get a hit from nexus for a single turn just to acomplish your own gameplan, putting your threats on the board. That's not mandatory, but I thought it'd be my line of thought in that scenario.
I agree with that, but I figured trading GQ for a protection spell is ok with me G1 since i got vial going turn 1. Rather get the Vines out now than later when it can be used to deal 4 poison to me at the same time
I'm just taking notes while watching the video. notes are in chronological order.
Wow, thanks for watching it thoroughly.
G1: do never attempt to destroy anything when they have mana up. infect lists have so much protection, it's not worth giving a try. your T2 GQ was wasted way too easily. even if you had an additional path, they could've (and had as you saw later) another piece of protection. you're playing against a fast deck, if they don't do anything until T3, you're in very good condition and can afford to wait.
The way he played already signaled to me that he does indeed have protection. I've found that its useless to play around this as they will never commit and always leave that protection up. With the many times I play infect it was always best to kill things on your turn or after their combat so you don't walk into protection with pump during combat, if they have it then they have it.
Its not just a fast deck, its burst too so waiting doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna be in good shape.
Boarding: never board out arbiters. they play 8-10 fetches. if you screw their mana, you win easily. board out slow creatures like TKS, Wall.
selfless spirit is a blocker, yes, but other than that it is useless. you still have GQ against Nexus with 4 path and another couple of stranglers. strange to me that you decided to put spirit in for blocking and board out wisp, which is also a blocker but much stronger due to the etb.
That seems to be the general consensus and I agree, boarding out Arbiters are definitely a mistake. Choking them on mana would have allowed me to push him into having to go for it without leaving mana for his protection spells and more comfortably resolve a removal spell.
Wall is a good suggestion, ill board that out next time
Spirit for Wisp is a curve cut. Because I might need a blocker earlier for air Id rather have spirits than wisps. Yes they both fly but getting them out a turn earlier helps, if what i want is to have a blocker more importantly than having access to a flicker.
G2: i'd probably rather play displacer instead of tks. that way GQ is still open and at least representing a path to exile which the infect player may want to play around. if you survive the turn and he just attacks for 3 unblockable, leaving mana up, you won an active displacer and a turn.
other than that the games were over too quickly to really comment the infect player had strong hands after all
if you're struggeling with infect that hard, you may want to add spellskite to your sb
Yeah, TKS seems to be the cut in this match up. Not struggling with infect though, I wanted critique to tighten up play in case they drew strong hands like that the next time i face it. I used to have spellskites but I have cut them for selfless spirits because of fatal push. Local meta has a lot of them and a lot less lightning bolt. I've been liking the selfless spirits a ton now, they're very similar to spellskites with regard to the type of removal people run nowadays and it has added benefit of putting a clock and stopping board sweeps.
can't really say i have experience with E&T, but against lantern i usually try to get thalia out as early as possible and get as much damage in as possible before bridge comes down. i sandbag all my wisps for it to get a lethal attack later on. i play gw, which is easier to win with in that matchup. eternal witness can get important cards that got milled and noble hierarch gets under the bridge. lantern is one of the few decks i find kataki better than stony silence, as they have very little mana to operate with. engineered explosives out of the board is also pretty good.
I think it is easier with GW as well, I just went and made room for 4 leylines of sanctity in my sb. I feel like even stony silence isn't easy to get going, they either mill it or discard it unless you're lucky enough to draw it in an opportune moment. Same goes with flickerwisp, they get discarded or milled away. With the Leylines i hope i can prevent them from ripping my hate cards off my hands and reduce their ability to control my draws
@ChiisaiRamen You boarded out all leonin arbiters against a deck with only 2 basics. Also, Wisp can be really great against inkmoth and to speed up the game in your favor. Eldrazi displacer is better than TKS, imo. I wouldn't ever board displacer out against any creature decks (except bogles for obvious reasons).
That's my point, but I'm not saying you were wrong with your decisions, but I'd do differently than you did.
I'm not an expert in D&T, so i'll just give you my 2 cents! Since infect runs only 20~ lands and 8~ fetches, i don't usually side out arbiters against them on the play. If we can choke them on mana, we usually have enough time to seal the deal. On that last game, i'm pretty sure you could have easily won if that spirit was a cat, as your opponent didn't play around it and would be locked out of the game by a path on the dork. That second game, however, i don't really know what to say other than it was pretty bad luck to get one shotted after a TKS... Good luck!
Will do next time, seems to be leonin arbiter cut was wrong. Probably need to find a different cut since i like the Selfless Spirits still as air blockers. I think i changed my mind in the end and kept the displacers since they can tap down creatures. Cut would probably be a combination of TKS and displacers then? My line of thought was to cut the most mana taxing creatures
Got Destroyed by infect, critiques welcome. I might have made a mistake I am not aware of. Sorry for the quietness, shop is still working on setting up commentary
Round 1: 2-0 against Bant Eldrazi, That one-of Wall of Resurgence saved the day. Blocks eldrazi all day and came back from 1 life through a shambling vents with 3 counters.
Round 2: 2-1 mono black Infect, Crusader is a menace but thankfully having Wasteland strangler and Displacer blinks held them back. Got a free win game 1 from him missing one land drop then getting Ghost Quarter + Arbitered
Round 3: Video Link
Round 4: Lost to Lantern Control, I really need help on this one, I almost never win against this annoying deck
This is the list I ran at FNM, its my variation of the lulz deck. I preferred the Fleecemanes over the one-of sylvan caryatids and scooze because they help the evolve mechanic so much with their high power and toughness. Gyre sage becomes a goyf much quicker and consistently with fleecemanes.
The latest lulz list also opted for fleecemanes but cut down to 2 charms. I cut only 1 because from all the times i played with GW it has always been something people are worried about/tried to play around/get blown out by. I feel like a one-of advent of the wurm isnt really necessary.
Did pretty good overall, i lost to mirror. His list ran what seems to be a singleton spear of heliod that just made things way too difficult on the first game. I took the 2nd game handily by having more removal with charms, banishers, and glares. 3rd game was quick since he started on the play with experiment one and continued the beatdown on curve.
Care to elaborate on these choices? They seem a bit random to me...
Imposing sovereigns help maintain the momentum of being aggro because they cant just play a creature to block and buy them time.
In my testing the main problem with the deck seems to be evasion. I lose a lot of speed when something like sylvan caryatid hits the board and blocks even just a 2 power creature. In monoblack it helps prevent their grey merchants, nightveil spectres, desecration demons and even pack rats to chump and slow me down.
In many playtests a single elspeth can create a storm of chumpers to stonewall the deck and stabilize when theyre one hit away from death. This way playing an elspeth isnt going to let them stabilize until they get to untap again.
Speaking of evasion, it brings in the next card which is Nylea
Nylea is two things, she gives trample to all our creatures so loxodon smiters and the voice of resurgence tokens doesnt just get chumped.
Her activated ability is a bit less relevant but threat of activation always creates an advantage in combat. Adding power and toughness is slightly more relevant especially because of the next card.
White weenie style decks live off the anthem. Sadly our available anthem is legendary in the form of spear of heliod. You cant really have three or more, two is the max and even then on occasion drawing both of them hurts my tempo a ton, since we do not have scry lands yet.
Hey all, I just got done reading through this thread and I was wondering if you guys could give me some pointers on my list. This is my first modern deck that isn't just RDW of some kind. I've been testing as much as I can but not as much as I would hope to be doing. So I'm not really sure if what have here is right or not. I assume it's not because I have only been winning about 40% of my games...
seems like a decent list. what cards youll be playing more of and less of is totally dependant on your meta so not much i can say past that.
for example, mine has 3 board sweeps because of the increased amount of aggro in my meta. Also a lot more thuns than geist of saint traft so i have more wrath of gods than supreme verdict.
Red deck wins is non existant on my meta so i have very little life gain and favored vendillion cliques instead of kitchen finks to help stop combo better.
Yup. I second that, very nice
for modern i cant think of anyone except the regulars in this thread. Jendo and Catmix alwaays tries to innovate so you can look at their streams and formulate your own opinion on what works for you.
this deck in modern seems to have many variations that just sticks to people's tendencies. I for one cannot move away from EnT, every time i try any other variation i miss the scullers and processing shenanigans.
I honestly dont even think hes that great, he gets to grind more and he gets more publicity but his lists has always been a lean towards white weenie rather than control.
For me at least, Death and Taxes has always been control, disrupt as you incrementally threaten. White weenie is just beats, and stompy can beat better and red can race better so i never really cared for any of his lists except for Legacy where he plays the more traditional DnT with his brand of flavor.
DnT especially is a type of control deck that requires you to understand fully how other decks work due to the nature of cards like sculler, TKS, and revokers. I wouldnt really trust someone who plays -only- white to have an amazing grasp of DnT.
Its the reason why i cant stray away from BW E&T, Tidehollows, TKS, Strangler and Displacers
Its probably just personal preference but I'm just never fond of lists that just beats down, I think disruption is important past Thalia and Arbiters
I used to struggle against grixis but with a few tweaks ive been fine. I dropped spellskites for 2 more selfless spirits because they put a clock and protects against sweepers, they do what spellskites already does but better since their removal of choice now is fatal push instead of bolts which spellskites used to be able to soak up and live through.
What you do lose without skites are K-command protection, so you cant put all your eggs in the aether vial basket against these decks.
Boarding in RiP is the correct way to do it though, it also ruins delve.
"Getting them" with vialed in arbiter
Dominating their board presence with a million blinks with Displacer
Processing Wisp or Sculler exiles
Processing suspend spells
Blinking arbiter to make em pay the 2nd time and failing to
and the MTGO special of not knowing how the card works so they fetch into oblivion with no prompt to pay arbiter tax
These are the joys of this deck
For paper, the body language opponents make when you pull that off, you can tell. Its like you just murdered their hopes and dreams
I agree with that, but I figured trading GQ for a protection spell is ok with me G1 since i got vial going turn 1. Rather get the Vines out now than later when it can be used to deal 4 poison to me at the same time
Wow, thanks for watching it thoroughly.
The way he played already signaled to me that he does indeed have protection. I've found that its useless to play around this as they will never commit and always leave that protection up. With the many times I play infect it was always best to kill things on your turn or after their combat so you don't walk into protection with pump during combat, if they have it then they have it.
Its not just a fast deck, its burst too so waiting doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna be in good shape.
That seems to be the general consensus and I agree, boarding out Arbiters are definitely a mistake. Choking them on mana would have allowed me to push him into having to go for it without leaving mana for his protection spells and more comfortably resolve a removal spell.
Wall is a good suggestion, ill board that out next time
Spirit for Wisp is a curve cut. Because I might need a blocker earlier for air Id rather have spirits than wisps. Yes they both fly but getting them out a turn earlier helps, if what i want is to have a blocker more importantly than having access to a flicker.
Yeah, TKS seems to be the cut in this match up. Not struggling with infect though, I wanted critique to tighten up play in case they drew strong hands like that the next time i face it. I used to have spellskites but I have cut them for selfless spirits because of fatal push. Local meta has a lot of them and a lot less lightning bolt. I've been liking the selfless spirits a ton now, they're very similar to spellskites with regard to the type of removal people run nowadays and it has added benefit of putting a clock and stopping board sweeps.
I think it is easier with GW as well, I just went and made room for 4 leylines of sanctity in my sb. I feel like even stony silence isn't easy to get going, they either mill it or discard it unless you're lucky enough to draw it in an opportune moment. Same goes with flickerwisp, they get discarded or milled away. With the Leylines i hope i can prevent them from ripping my hate cards off my hands and reduce their ability to control my draws
Thanks again for the input
Will do next time, seems to be leonin arbiter cut was wrong. Probably need to find a different cut since i like the Selfless Spirits still as air blockers. I think i changed my mind in the end and kept the displacers since they can tap down creatures. Cut would probably be a combination of TKS and displacers then? My line of thought was to cut the most mana taxing creatures
Appreciate the replies from both of you btw
Got Destroyed by infect, critiques welcome. I might have made a mistake I am not aware of. Sorry for the quietness, shop is still working on setting up commentary
Round 1: 2-0 against Bant Eldrazi, That one-of Wall of Resurgence saved the day. Blocks eldrazi all day and came back from 1 life through a shambling vents with 3 counters.
Round 2: 2-1 mono black Infect, Crusader is a menace but thankfully having Wasteland strangler and Displacer blinks held them back. Got a free win game 1 from him missing one land drop then getting Ghost Quarter + Arbitered
Round 3: Video Link
Round 4: Lost to Lantern Control, I really need help on this one, I almost never win against this annoying deck
8 Plains
8 Forest
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures
4 Experiment One
4 Gyre Sage
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Boon Satyr
4 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
4 Banisher Priest
4 Chronicler of Heroes
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Selesnya Charm
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Banisher Priest
3 Glare of Heresy
3 Unflinching Courage
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
1 Bow of Nylea
This is the list I ran at FNM, its my variation of the lulz deck. I preferred the Fleecemanes over the one-of sylvan caryatids and scooze because they help the evolve mechanic so much with their high power and toughness. Gyre sage becomes a goyf much quicker and consistently with fleecemanes.
The latest lulz list also opted for fleecemanes but cut down to 2 charms. I cut only 1 because from all the times i played with GW it has always been something people are worried about/tried to play around/get blown out by. I feel like a one-of advent of the wurm isnt really necessary.
Did pretty good overall, i lost to mirror. His list ran what seems to be a singleton spear of heliod that just made things way too difficult on the first game. I took the 2nd game handily by having more removal with charms, banishers, and glares. 3rd game was quick since he started on the play with experiment one and continued the beatdown on curve.
Imposing sovereigns help maintain the momentum of being aggro because they cant just play a creature to block and buy them time.
In my testing the main problem with the deck seems to be evasion. I lose a lot of speed when something like sylvan caryatid hits the board and blocks even just a 2 power creature. In monoblack it helps prevent their grey merchants, nightveil spectres, desecration demons and even pack rats to chump and slow me down.
In many playtests a single elspeth can create a storm of chumpers to stonewall the deck and stabilize when theyre one hit away from death. This way playing an elspeth isnt going to let them stabilize until they get to untap again.
Speaking of evasion, it brings in the next card which is Nylea
Nylea is two things, she gives trample to all our creatures so loxodon smiters and the voice of resurgence tokens doesnt just get chumped.
Her activated ability is a bit less relevant but threat of activation always creates an advantage in combat. Adding power and toughness is slightly more relevant especially because of the next card.
White weenie style decks live off the anthem. Sadly our available anthem is legendary in the form of spear of heliod. You cant really have three or more, two is the max and even then on occasion drawing both of them hurts my tempo a ton, since we do not have scry lands yet.
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
7 Forest
7 Plains
Creatures
4 Experiment One
4 Dryad Militant
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Imposing Sovereign
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Brave the Elements
Artifacts
2 Spear of Heliod
Planeswalker
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
seems like a decent list. what cards youll be playing more of and less of is totally dependant on your meta so not much i can say past that.
for example, mine has 3 board sweeps because of the increased amount of aggro in my meta. Also a lot more thuns than geist of saint traft so i have more wrath of gods than supreme verdict.
Red deck wins is non existant on my meta so i have very little life gain and favored vendillion cliques instead of kitchen finks to help stop combo better.