With the 4-drop slot presently taken up by 2 Chandra, 2 Thrun, and now 3 Bloodbraid Elf I am considering dropping Huntmaster of the Fells. I have always found him really useful. I am just not sure I have room for him in the deck anymore as I would on the whole be looking to cast one of the others most of the time. Has anyone else experienced this? I am considering going up to 4 BloodBraid Elf and 8 Land Destruction abilities, possibly including a bolt or two main board which might make up for the lost bolt-effect of Huntmaster.
This is what I'm on. I was running 4 Huntsmaster, cut all 4 for BBE, then changed my Mwonvuli Acid-Moss to x2 Beast Within and x2 Molten Rain. I then lowered my top end and went for just the consistency + disruption route instead of disruption + top end finishers.
What do you guys think of replacing Birds of Paradise for Lotus Cobra. If you accelerate into T1 Elf/Sprawl, T2 Cobra+ Fetch you have 5 mana available in T2. Even if you play in T2 you can play BBE or Stormbreath T3.
It's also a better cascading target than birds, at least it's a 2/1 body. Plus it's nice to play something T2 in situations when you can't find a accelerator T1. I liked it so much than I'm thinking into playing 3 Cobras now...
I have been testing Courser + BBE + Fetch and it's the real deal because you can control your cascades, improving BBE.
I think there's a deck for Lotus Cobra (I.E. Turbolands) but it isn't Ponza. The core strategy of the deck is to have the possibility for a turn 2 Blood Moon or Stone Rain (and in some lists, Molten Rain. Your basically a RG list that relies on mana disruption/denial and either top-end threats (older lists with Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon) or consistency (new lists with Bloodbraid Elf.) Playing your ramp on t2 isn't really what you want to be doing, and cascading into situational ramp doesn't feel that good either, especially considering that this deck runs 20-22 lands.
My thought process was, taking out acid moss for molten rain allows us more t2 Ld, without stormbreath or inferno titan there is less need for the ramp from acid moss. K command will be good against the swords but our deck is typically already very good against k command decks. Hands without acceleration are almost must mulligan, the two xtra birds help get them in our opener, help get 2 red by turn 2 for molten rain, and are great targets for our swords. T1 bird t2 sword seems good.
I love stormbreath and it may be a mistake to not include him in the main but lower curve should assure we are never waiting for that one more land off the top or having two uncastable threats in our opener.
I'd still leave 1-2 in the main as a curve topper. Cascading into ramp is inevitable, and he makes a bad situation slightly less bad.
Jadelight is more of a replacement for Tireless Tracker. You trade late-game blowout potential and long term card draw for immediate filtering for a Cascade trigger and bigger creature up-front.
Imagine that Jace Signature Spellbook containing Jace, the Mind Sculptor and turning him from the Wallet Sculpter to the Peoples Sculpture. Crash the market. Eliminate the bourgeoisie.
Long story short, my build revolves around the synergy between Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker and Bloodbraid Elf. These three cards really get much better together.
Yea, I was sold on x4 Courser + x2 Tracker before BBE, and I completely agree, predictable Cascading is just gas. My only concern is getting caught off guard in my meta by Dredge or the few Graveyard-heavy Grixis Control lists (we're talking 4-5 players out of ~30 so it's sizeable enough for me).
In an open meta, I'd probably shave both Scavenging Ooze mainboard for 2 Courser of Kruphix, maybe fitting one Scooze back in the SB. I'd also consider cutting one (maybe two) Tireless Tracker from the main to test Jadelight Ranger since he not only grows but can set up a Cascade on his own as well.
I'd like to make some room for a Beast Within but this is pretty tuned to my meta and also tuned to the fact that Jace/BBE will be everywhere. Not worried about the Tron backlash (we're Ponza) or Aggro.
EDIT 2:
After 5-6 matches of testing against UW Control/GDS/Affinity, I made room for the Beast Within and I'm much happier. Without Inferno Titan, MWAM isn't as important and the deck just runs smooth lower to the ground.
This deck lacks late game consistency and gas. I'd rather draw a BBE and cascade into a dork on t3+ than just draw the dork. I'm not sure why anyone thinks this isn't an auto-include in the deck. There's no reason to cling to cards that are marginally bad like Bonfire of the Damned over Lightning Bolt on a stick + Stone Rain/Blood Moon/Molten Rain that also digs you deeper towards other cards.
Birds of Paradise is now gone. Even if you didn’t like all the stats and theory crafting before BBE just makes there literally no argument to run it. BBE into BOP is laughable! I think instead of the 1 Garruk we can run 1 Nissa. And the Huntmaster slots that were used are now BBE. I’m still working on a list but there are some obvious changes that need to be made such as the removal of Beast Within. That card is the only thing I can think of that would be worse than BOP and I enjoyed it before because it was so flexible.
Once I have done more play testing I will post what I have found is a solid list.
I'd still run Beast Within as a 1-2 of MB, especially for the next two weeks while everyone forces Jace into every deck they have. Worst case scenario, you can pop their land and trade the token with BBE.
Agree with all of the above. Bonfire was already an iffy card, and Birds rarely felt good. 4 Trackers, 2+ Coursers, and a few Scooze and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar all seem like nice non-LD targets. I think our curve overall goes lower and more midrange rather than the "ramp into Inferno Titan" we traditionally do.
I was never a fan of Inferno Titan, but I still think 2-4 curve toppers is fine (I prefer x2 Stormbreath Dragon, x1 Acidic Slime, and x1 Hazoret the Fervent anyway + the newly reintroduced Bloodbraid Elf), especially if you keep Acid Moss in-deck. Even without birds, curving into mana acceleration is real, so having 5-6 drops is a good idea.
Bloodbraid Elf thoughts:
-You're probably going to want to run Lightning Bolt, and Bonfire is worse now.
-Molten Rain might be playable over Acid Moss if you want to lower your curve
-Goblin Rabblemaster is maybe worth testing again
-Shrinking on dorks (AKA "cutting the two birds") has another argument in its favor
Queue all of the "does jace fit in this deck?" comments on every prime for any blue deck, and "is blue the better splash now" for any decks on the fence about U.
Anyways, heres to Control having a more consistent late game and finally being what it should be. I'm not even a control player and I welcome this change.
I have not picked up any copies yet so i can't speak from experience.
I would not think that BS is as good as we make it out to be in Scapeshift/Valakut MUs. Most lists play Scapeshift/Breach and those play card like Woodfall Primus after SB. As far as i know they also bring it in frequently to deal with Karns and the like. Not cutting them off green so they can't go for Pact into Primus seems like a big deal...
Are we playing the same format? I've never seen Woodfall Primus in paper or online. Maybe in some of the breach decks, but most decks I've seen over the last 3 months have been all-in Titanshift (including my deck )
Blood Sun is good against: UW/Jeskai Control (shuts off Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin for UW, and most Jeskai lists play a lot of fetches and hurting controls tempo/land drops is a game winner), Affinity (shuts off manlands), and Titanshift. It's alright against DS (they can't play life off of lands + turns fetches into dead draws), but it might be too slow. I like it over Pyroclasm though.
More importantly, there is in depth data analysis across different tournaments that gives us insight on how they approach bannings nowadays. The chart they presented shows why, even if we don't like it, bans had to be made. They stepped up their transparency game regarding bans/unbans. Now if only they would step up their design game!
Also Finally, we will have another banned and restricted announcement next month on February 12. The timing of this announcement makes it ideal to consider changes based on the results of Pro Tour Rivals of Ixalan, and thus will more than likely focus on Modern. However, it also is right before Grand Prix Lyon, which is Modern. As such, the paper effective date of that announcement, if we should change anything, will be February 23, so as not to disrupt anyone traveling to that event.
I'm in awe. Wizards recognizing ban timings around events and respecting the playerbase? Is 2018 the year of the player?
Anywho, I completely agree with no bans/unbans for Modern. Plenty of "safe" cards persay, but the reality is that we haven't had a Modern PT in a while, so they want to get some real data from the top level players themselves before taking any action. Makes sense. @WotC thanks for not just banning something to shake things up again.
This is what I'm on. I was running 4 Huntsmaster, cut all 4 for BBE, then changed my Mwonvuli Acid-Moss to x2 Beast Within and x2 Molten Rain. I then lowered my top end and went for just the consistency + disruption route instead of disruption + top end finishers.
I think there's a deck for Lotus Cobra (I.E. Turbolands) but it isn't Ponza. The core strategy of the deck is to have the possibility for a turn 2 Blood Moon or Stone Rain (and in some lists, Molten Rain. Your basically a RG list that relies on mana disruption/denial and either top-end threats (older lists with Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon) or consistency (new lists with Bloodbraid Elf.) Playing your ramp on t2 isn't really what you want to be doing, and cascading into situational ramp doesn't feel that good either, especially considering that this deck runs 20-22 lands.
I'd still leave 1-2 in the main as a curve topper. Cascading into ramp is inevitable, and he makes a bad situation slightly less bad.
Jadelight is more of a replacement for Tireless Tracker. You trade late-game blowout potential and long term card draw for immediate filtering for a Cascade trigger and bigger creature up-front.
It's sweet mill mainboard tech.
Yea, I was sold on x4 Courser + x2 Tracker before BBE, and I completely agree, predictable Cascading is just gas. My only concern is getting caught off guard in my meta by Dredge or the few Graveyard-heavy Grixis Control lists (we're talking 4-5 players out of ~30 so it's sizeable enough for me).
In an open meta, I'd probably shave both Scavenging Ooze mainboard for 2 Courser of Kruphix, maybe fitting one Scooze back in the SB. I'd also consider cutting one (maybe two) Tireless Tracker from the main to test Jadelight Ranger since he not only grows but can set up a Cascade on his own as well.
EDIT:
Here's my list for next week's paper testing:
4 Arbor Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Instants:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Beast Within
Sorcery:
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Enchantments:
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
Land:
2 Mountain
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Shatterstorm
2 Nature's Claim
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Pithing Needle
3 Choke
2 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grafdigger's Cage
I'd like to make some room for a Beast Within but this is pretty tuned to my meta and also tuned to the fact that Jace/BBE will be everywhere. Not worried about the Tron backlash (we're Ponza) or Aggro.
EDIT 2:
After 5-6 matches of testing against UW Control/GDS/Affinity, I made room for the Beast Within and I'm much happier. Without Inferno Titan, MWAM isn't as important and the deck just runs smooth lower to the ground.
I'd still run Beast Within as a 1-2 of MB, especially for the next two weeks while everyone forces Jace into every deck they have. Worst case scenario, you can pop their land and trade the token with BBE.
I was never a fan of Inferno Titan, but I still think 2-4 curve toppers is fine (I prefer x2 Stormbreath Dragon, x1 Acidic Slime, and x1 Hazoret the Fervent anyway + the newly reintroduced Bloodbraid Elf), especially if you keep Acid Moss in-deck. Even without birds, curving into mana acceleration is real, so having 5-6 drops is a good idea.
-You're probably going to want to run Lightning Bolt, and Bonfire is worse now.
-Molten Rain might be playable over Acid Moss if you want to lower your curve
-Goblin Rabblemaster is maybe worth testing again
-Shrinking on dorks (AKA "cutting the two birds") has another argument in its favor
Cascading into a Blood Moon is gonna feel good.
Anyways, heres to Control having a more consistent late game and finally being what it should be. I'm not even a control player and I welcome this change.
Also, isn't the title for this thread wrong? B&R isn't 2/10
Are we playing the same format? I've never seen Woodfall Primus in paper or online. Maybe in some of the breach decks, but most decks I've seen over the last 3 months have been all-in Titanshift (including my deck
Blood Sun is good against: UW/Jeskai Control (shuts off Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin for UW, and most Jeskai lists play a lot of fetches and hurting controls tempo/land drops is a game winner), Affinity (shuts off manlands), and Titanshift. It's alright against DS (they can't play life off of lands + turns fetches into dead draws), but it might be too slow. I like it over Pyroclasm though.
I'm in awe. Wizards recognizing ban timings around events and respecting the playerbase? Is 2018 the year of the player?
Anywho, I completely agree with no bans/unbans for Modern. Plenty of "safe" cards persay, but the reality is that we haven't had a Modern PT in a while, so they want to get some real data from the top level players themselves before taking any action. Makes sense. @WotC thanks for not just banning something to shake things up again.