Are you arguing that the card is bad because it doesn't do what you think it ought to do?
That would be a bad argument but I'm not seeing anything else. Maybe you hate it and maybe you hate the direction the game is taking, but I've had just about every interaction I've ever liked removed from the game. I got over it. You will too.
It's badly designed, not "bad", because Wizards probably didn't test or care about its interactions in Modern. Just like they haven't properly tested or cared about dozens of other cards in the past few years (both in Standard and Modern), because their pre-Play Design testing has been awful. These consistent design shortcomings are needlessly risky for Modern, as Sun disproportionately benefits unfair strategies that didn't need this effect. Look at the top tier decks and which decks get hurt? GDS and Jeskai. Which don't get hurt? Storm and Tron, both of which may benefit to varying degrees from Sun. That's a lot of dumb risk Wizards could have easily avoided with a little Modern-based oversight.
Tron has always been a bad matchup for control. Storm barely gets any legs from this at all against control (zero against UW, minimal against Jeskai), and like I said before, forcing Tron players back to GR vs GB hurts their storm matchup so it diversifies the field and makes two versions of the deck viable. I think calling this poor design on Wizards part is an overstatement and an overreaction. Time will tell, but I seriously don't think it's anywhere near as detrimental as people are making it out to be.
This is basically another SB option for decks that run red but can't run blood moon, like a Blood Moon light. You still have to build around it for it to be main deck worthy (bounce lands come to mind), and in those buildaround decks, you don't want Blood Moon.
Sun is a badly designed card. Helps Tron and Eldrazi decks, hurts fair decks. Both a missed opportunity to make good hate and a potentially harmful failure. And it took the online community about 10 minutes to realize this; Play Design input can't come soon enough.
Usually I would agree with you but there aren't any competitive eldrazi decks running red right now, because bant/GB eldrazi and eldrazi tron are just the better options. This helps one single variant of tron (GR), which is fine because GB had a better combo matchup so at least GR doesn't autolose to Scapeshift and has some resiliancy against UW Control and their x4 Field of Ruin and Ghost Quarter's, but being off of black means you're also just weaker to Gifts Storm and Burn. If anything, it diversifies the format more.
One thing I'm surprised nobody is talking about is how Blood Sun affects Death's Shadow decks. Turning off their fetches hurts delve, and turning off the shock slows down their potential to roll out DS early. It does the same thing as Blood Moon post-rules change (albeit a little worse since it still gives them mana), but it can be slotted into more decks.
Opt is at its best in more draw-go, controlling, no-silver-bullets decks like UWR variants or UW Control. That's a fair few decks already.
In those decks I think Opt has to fight Think Twice to even get above 0 copies. Pure control doesn't even play 4 Serum Visions all the time.
If you're talking about UWx, I would venture to agree with Jordan Boisvert that most competitive decks run 4x Serum Visions and have come around to the strength of the card, and most lists that don't aren't optimized.
As far as Opt vs Serum Visions, I plan on testing a playset of both in UWR/Jeskai Control just to see if the turbo xerox rule can hold up without brainstorm/ponder (cutting 2 lands and 2 spells for the 4 opt, for a total of 22 lands and 8 hard cantrips + 2 remand/2 electrolyze). Should be interesting.
I think if the biggest point of contention right now is the semantics of archetype names, modern is probably in a pretty good spot.
Underrated comment and exactly how I feel about this.
I would say big mana is probably better described as the mana cost of the spells its casting (Average CMC of actual spells >5 etc). Scapeshift/TitanShift border on big mana to be, but they're still mostly combo, Eldrazi Trons primary threats/strength/existence comes from spells that cost 5 or more to cast and its best games are pumping those out early, so it's big mana, etc. Elves can't be big mana because it's pumping out CMC 1-3 (mostly 1 & 2) and its just a go-wide aggro deck that makes a lot of mana to go wide. Who really cares though? We should be trying to open the meta to new decks right now, not bickering over ones that already exist that aren't oppressive. The metagame is adapting well enough, we aren't in some type of DS/Tron/Shift Winter. There's some unbans that could help other archtypes, and new cards are getting printed all the time.
In my opinion, Jace is simply "overpowered" when you look at the decks he would improve matchups against because they don't have strict answers for him. It would *gasp* force players to adapt and *gasp x2* make some decks have more matchups that aren't strictly 50/50 or better. Control wants to play the long game, and every linear/combo/aggro (whatever you want to call it) deck wants to do the opposite, so nobody who supports the current state of the meta would support enabling long-game strategies because it risks warping the rest of the meta. Personally, I'd love a JTMS unban because I don't think it would be difficult for the meta to adapt (the hate cards exist, as well as decks that can just outpace or go over Jace, so you'd see the format shift the same way it did with Titanshift and Eldrazi Tron). I also love Modern how it is and wouldn't be hurt or surprised if it stays banned.
It would be cool to see some sort of PTR for unbans on MTGO to test cards before making them massively unbanned. Imagine WOTC running a big modern event every day for a week to see how certain cards could warp a meta if banned/unbanned (maybe add novelty prize support or even monetary value, just to get people to participate). Then we could stop bickering about the potential impacts and actually push the format forward to be as diverse and inclusive as possible.
I did a quick search and didn't see it brought up, but has anyone looked at replacing red with black? You lose Blood Moon (which is obviously bad), but you have a functional (albeit harder to cast) replacement for Stone Rain in Rain of Tears and gain direct (and better) removal/better card advantage/a different set of threats (Think Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, Grim Flayer, Liliana of the Veil, and a more black/color fixing list could even try to run Phyrexian Obliterator)
I love my GR deck, but would be interested in doing some testing. You can even keep it low to the ground like the older Growza decks with Tarmogoyf/Grim Flayer or have a more overall land based deck with Courser of Kruphix/The Gitrog Monster. Obviously not trying to derail the thread and turn it into a GBx Rock conversation, but would a ponza-style deck with MWAM minus red have merit? Is it even worth talking about?
Instead of the closet you can use saheeli for the same purpose.
Not really, Saheeli's ability is a -2 so you'd need to blink Saheeli to reset the counters as well.
A better combo would just be the Eternal Command combo (Eternal Witness + Cryptic Command), and just bounce + counter or bounce + tap "infinitely" (obviously broken by a kill spell or a counter so it's only a soft lock.)
Would it be a stretch to try to get larger LGS staff/TOs to try and voluntarily submit data about Top 8s? I know Modern Monday/FNMs are not even remotely as important as other bigger events, but collectively tracking smaller events with 20-30+ people nationally/internationally, coupled with other paper tournaments, would probably be a better representation. Basically, with a large enough sample size and limiting the sample to larger small tournaments coupled with a lower statistical weight, you could help eliminate meta bias and still increase the overall data pool.
While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs.
At least they're admitting that Modern < Other formats in their eyes. Would have liked to see some unbans but at least there were no bans.
'Other formats' in this case clearing meaning 'Standard'. I can't imagine that they care more about Legacy or Vintage than Modern.
As for the announcement: yup.
Well, apparently they were too busy datamining and analyzing Legacy/Vintage (since thats where the actual changes were made) to consider Modern this time around
Look at the legacy/vintage forums reacting - the total # of posts across both formats talking about B&R is less than this thread alone. Oh well, looks like it's gonna be another couple of months of "warping the metagame" around a deck that's lacking relevant answers (specifically in blue) entering the card pool.
While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs.
At least they're admitting that Modern < Other formats in their eyes. Would have liked to see some unbans but at least there were no bans.
Possible the CoCo should be Vials. Usualy hatebears starts off strong, and sometimes just choke the oponent to death. But their lategame is often weak. Well, now you can keep brining back Ghost Quarters all day long. Your oponent can only have so many basic lands.
Also, Leonine Arbiter's abilaty is not symetrical. Once your oponent taps out, you can pay 2 and activate Knight of the Reliquary trading a land for a Ghost Quarter and further locking out your oponent. Also, growing your Knight in the process. Once you start dredging life from the loam it will grow even more.
You're forgetting the fetchland/ghost quarter + Renegade Rallier combo, which also recurs mini thalia, scooze, leonin, and all your dorks + lands.
You guys are arguing over MTG becoming an eSport through one format, as if it can't be split. One of the most entertaining tournaments/streams I've seen for MTG in a LONG time was the recent SCG Team Constructed format in Baltimore, where you had Standard, Modern, and Legacy players form a team and play together. It kept the stream interesting because you had a variety of decks all day, and the variance even had the casters more involved and energized making for better banter and commentary. At the end of the day, a stream or tournament is only going to be as interesting as you make it. Coming from a background of other sports, I've seen some of the biggest competitions go unnoticed or fade into obscurity because of disorganization and lack of enthusiasm and hype around the event, while smaller competitions flourish because they're organized by people who truly love the sport and put their maximum effort into organizing it. There's so much more that goes into MTG becoming an eSport than the card pool.
Moderns success as a format hinging on it being viable from an eSports aspect is a joke. Other people already pointed out how poker thrives yet it plays off the same old game every time. It's a bad example because MTG is a niche where poker is more widely understood, but the idea of support around the game vs the game itself still holds.
You can't float mana with Improvise, think Convoke.
Those cards don't do all that much for us, they seem pretty win-more. Also, WWW is really hard to get on your combo turn.
Oh true, forgot. You can still get 9-10 artifacts on board and improvise for a fattie though, and obviously Wx is much more manageable, I just felt like WSZ was worth the honorable mention. Besides using it as a finisher, it also just generally adds mana to the deck.
"Inspirational Monuments" 3
Artifact (Rare)
Non-artifact spells you cast have improvise.
(Your artifacts can help cast non-artifact spells.
Each artifact you tap after you're done activating mana abilities pays for 1.)
Well then. Not only is there another functional Puresteel Paladin but now there's a 3 mana artifact that turns all of your equipment's into colorless mana rocks for non-artifact spells. Extra wincon as Secure the Wastes/White Sun's Zenith? Just playout, bounce, etc and float mana into 40 tokens. Or bomb an Eldrazi on board. This deck is going to get bumped up a little.
I agree with Osieorb on this one. There have to be weak cards, not everything can be a bomb or even just generally "good" in a draft environment. The entire point of constructed over limited is to get you to play with the best synergies, which ultimately boils down to "playing with the best cards", but across multiple sets. As far as limited goes, sure, Shadows and some recent sets had some depressing commons, but Kaladesh wasn't that bad and had more interesting mechanics to create a better limited environment. Bumping up the power of commons or removing a rarity level won't do anything to fix the secondary market (it's largely supply and demand), and it wouldn't really change anything about limited or constructed either. This is why we have $2 mythics from old sets that aren't playable in eternal formats, and why some standard mythics/rares fluctuate in price (they suck but then someone makes it work and its suddenly a chase card, think Sphinxes Revelation in RTR block). Some cards are just standout good and start high and stay there.
On the other hand, if instead of beefing up the strength of commons you just look at mythics/rares and print MORE of these cards, and keep them at the same power level, you damage the idea of investing in cards from a secondary market standpoint which would turn off almost as many players as you would be helping get into constructed/eternal formats. If you reprint old cards in quantity large enough to permanently affect their price, then you just alienate a large portion of your older players because you can't reprint EVERY value card, so you essentially pick and choose who's investment is less worthwhile in the long run. Remember that not everyone looks at card values in strictly dollar-to-cardboard, but they use these values as trade value so they can constantly try new decks and move their collection around. If you knock one $500 deck to $100, you've made it much harder to allow that player to convert his collection. Price drops are inevitable with reprints, even in limited sets like MM, but a deliberate attempt by WOTC to affect the secondary market like that would really damage the non-casual, non-beginner playerbase.
Tron has always been a bad matchup for control. Storm barely gets any legs from this at all against control (zero against UW, minimal against Jeskai), and like I said before, forcing Tron players back to GR vs GB hurts their storm matchup so it diversifies the field and makes two versions of the deck viable. I think calling this poor design on Wizards part is an overstatement and an overreaction. Time will tell, but I seriously don't think it's anywhere near as detrimental as people are making it out to be.
This is basically another SB option for decks that run red but can't run blood moon, like a Blood Moon light. You still have to build around it for it to be main deck worthy (bounce lands come to mind), and in those buildaround decks, you don't want Blood Moon.
Usually I would agree with you but there aren't any competitive eldrazi decks running red right now, because bant/GB eldrazi and eldrazi tron are just the better options. This helps one single variant of tron (GR), which is fine because GB had a better combo matchup so at least GR doesn't autolose to Scapeshift and has some resiliancy against UW Control and their x4 Field of Ruin and Ghost Quarter's, but being off of black means you're also just weaker to Gifts Storm and Burn. If anything, it diversifies the format more.
One thing I'm surprised nobody is talking about is how Blood Sun affects Death's Shadow decks. Turning off their fetches hurts delve, and turning off the shock slows down their potential to roll out DS early. It does the same thing as Blood Moon post-rules change (albeit a little worse since it still gives them mana), but it can be slotted into more decks.
If you're talking about UWx, I would venture to agree with Jordan Boisvert that most competitive decks run 4x Serum Visions and have come around to the strength of the card, and most lists that don't aren't optimized.
As far as Opt vs Serum Visions, I plan on testing a playset of both in UWR/Jeskai Control just to see if the turbo xerox rule can hold up without brainstorm/ponder (cutting 2 lands and 2 spells for the 4 opt, for a total of 22 lands and 8 hard cantrips + 2 remand/2 electrolyze). Should be interesting.
Underrated comment and exactly how I feel about this.
I would say big mana is probably better described as the mana cost of the spells its casting (Average CMC of actual spells >5 etc). Scapeshift/TitanShift border on big mana to be, but they're still mostly combo, Eldrazi Trons primary threats/strength/existence comes from spells that cost 5 or more to cast and its best games are pumping those out early, so it's big mana, etc. Elves can't be big mana because it's pumping out CMC 1-3 (mostly 1 & 2) and its just a go-wide aggro deck that makes a lot of mana to go wide. Who really cares though? We should be trying to open the meta to new decks right now, not bickering over ones that already exist that aren't oppressive. The metagame is adapting well enough, we aren't in some type of DS/Tron/Shift Winter. There's some unbans that could help other archtypes, and new cards are getting printed all the time.
It would be cool to see some sort of PTR for unbans on MTGO to test cards before making them massively unbanned. Imagine WOTC running a big modern event every day for a week to see how certain cards could warp a meta if banned/unbanned (maybe add novelty prize support or even monetary value, just to get people to participate). Then we could stop bickering about the potential impacts and actually push the format forward to be as diverse and inclusive as possible.
I love my GR deck, but would be interested in doing some testing. You can even keep it low to the ground like the older Growza decks with Tarmogoyf/Grim Flayer or have a more overall land based deck with Courser of Kruphix/The Gitrog Monster. Obviously not trying to derail the thread and turn it into a GBx Rock conversation, but would a ponza-style deck with MWAM minus red have merit? Is it even worth talking about?
EDIT:
Some random big mana threats that could synergize with a GB ponza shell:
Hellcarver Demon
Dread Defiler
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Fendeep Summoner (loose, but imagine animating their lands and decaying/pushing them + animating your own lands speeds up the game)
The Gitrog Monster (Synergizes with Courser of Kruphix-based lists)
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (Just a house against aggro)
Phyrexian Obliterator
Not really, Saheeli's ability is a -2 so you'd need to blink Saheeli to reset the counters as well.
A better combo would just be the Eternal Command combo (Eternal Witness + Cryptic Command), and just bounce + counter or bounce + tap "infinitely" (obviously broken by a kill spell or a counter so it's only a soft lock.)
Well, apparently they were too busy datamining and analyzing Legacy/Vintage (since thats where the actual changes were made) to consider Modern this time around
Look at the legacy/vintage forums reacting - the total # of posts across both formats talking about B&R is less than this thread alone. Oh well, looks like it's gonna be another couple of months of "warping the metagame" around a deck that's lacking relevant answers (specifically in blue) entering the card pool.
At least they're admitting that Modern < Other formats in their eyes. Would have liked to see some unbans but at least there were no bans.
You're forgetting the fetchland/ghost quarter + Renegade Rallier combo, which also recurs mini thalia, scooze, leonin, and all your dorks + lands.
Moderns success as a format hinging on it being viable from an eSports aspect is a joke. Other people already pointed out how poker thrives yet it plays off the same old game every time. It's a bad example because MTG is a niche where poker is more widely understood, but the idea of support around the game vs the game itself still holds.
Oh true, forgot. You can still get 9-10 artifacts on board and improvise for a fattie though, and obviously Wx is much more manageable, I just felt like WSZ was worth the honorable mention. Besides using it as a finisher, it also just generally adds mana to the deck.
Artifact (Rare)
Non-artifact spells you cast have improvise.
(Your artifacts can help cast non-artifact spells.
Each artifact you tap after you're done activating mana abilities pays for 1.)
Well then. Not only is there another functional Puresteel Paladin but now there's a 3 mana artifact that turns all of your equipment's into colorless mana rocks for non-artifact spells. Extra wincon as Secure the Wastes/White Sun's Zenith? Just playout, bounce, etc and float mana into 40 tokens. Or bomb an Eldrazi on board. This deck is going to get bumped up a little.
On the other hand, if instead of beefing up the strength of commons you just look at mythics/rares and print MORE of these cards, and keep them at the same power level, you damage the idea of investing in cards from a secondary market standpoint which would turn off almost as many players as you would be helping get into constructed/eternal formats. If you reprint old cards in quantity large enough to permanently affect their price, then you just alienate a large portion of your older players because you can't reprint EVERY value card, so you essentially pick and choose who's investment is less worthwhile in the long run. Remember that not everyone looks at card values in strictly dollar-to-cardboard, but they use these values as trade value so they can constantly try new decks and move their collection around. If you knock one $500 deck to $100, you've made it much harder to allow that player to convert his collection. Price drops are inevitable with reprints, even in limited sets like MM, but a deliberate attempt by WOTC to affect the secondary market like that would really damage the non-casual, non-beginner playerbase.