Retreat is surely interesting, maybe even as a replacement for propaganda, filling a very simular roll, yet with the benefit of scry. Although the protecting is of slightly different nature, arguably somewhat worse. At least I will try it in the bant list I'm running, using rangers and exploration to abuse the tap/untap availability.
I've been wondering one thing in lists posted here previously, why run rule, when lab is available? Is reblast that prominent that the added pitch to force isn't worth it? I'm pretty new to legacy so apologies if I'm asking a stupid question.
I've done extensive testing using Dark Heart of the Wood, and I can say that it has a few problems to it:
- It's a very slow engine, given that you can't sac more than 1 land a turn. Hence often not netting you enough life to matter.
- It's not graveyard based, so I found myself drawing cards to get to it, when i really wanted to dredge.
- Sacing lands is very much an issue when you only have one landdrop am turn, that land could've been used to power more powerful things like tec edge/ghost quarter -> loam engine.
I moved it out of my main deck, into my side, and now I've switched it out to test Syphon Life in its slot. And I have to say it's been putting out at least as bad results.
Life totals are very much an issue with this deck, I often stabilize at 5 or less life. I will give Miren, the Moaning Well a shot, somewhere in the already strained mana.
[...] and a deck based around "Haakon, Stromgald Surge" (Emperor Haakon?). We're not kidding when we say you can play whatever you want and win, provided you're willing to put in the hours learning your matchups and polishing your sideboard.
The deck has indeed been spotted, Looking forward to your GP report bGnomes
Edit: Looks like I've been beat to it, so much for not refreshing the page before posting
Also you cannot rely on Gatherer ratings on cards as a mark of quality, lots of unplayable cards have 4+ rating on there.
You might need to take a look at that curve, first walker landing on 4 cmc, all the way up to 8 cmc, might make them be dead in your hand more than you'd like.
Lilly is not interchangeable with Thoughtseize, In the awkward situation where you draw a Haakon, Lilly makes him castable, her -2 mode is also very useful against hexproofcardslikeGeist. Thoughtseize is surely a card to be considered for the deck, but not as a Liliana replacement.
Congratulations on the good finish, nice to see this deck putting up results!
I'm working on acquiring this deck in paper myself, and I must say I enjoy it at lot more than the BUG version currently more discussed here on the deck creation forum.
Getting KotR and Lingering Souls does so much for the deck.
How was the 3 Darkblasts? I'm currently only running 1.
Wow, Magus of the Moat that's bold card to be playing. I really like it, but the 3 toughness has always turned me away from it. Do you manage keeping him alive?
Also you're only running 22 lands with a list that reliant upon the 4 drops, have you considered Mind Stone or Boros Signet?
Your deck is currently playing a non excisting removal suit main, against decks like affinity/zoo this will be the death of you game 1.
I would advice moving some amount of those bolts (or helixes) into the main.
With the bridges in the side, are you able to empty your hand quick enough? it seems like the Elspeth/Deus or other big beaters might give your opponent time to slip under it. When on the land destruction plan i like running Ghostly Prison
in their place.
Also, you have to explain to me how this satyr trick of yours works, how do you sac him on turn 1, when it already costs 2 mana casting him, does he even give you any mana increase? Play out for 2 mana, sac for 1 mana gain 3 mana = no gain...
As you might've noticed this thread is kind off dead, and there isn't too much interest in denial strategies overall on the modern subforums.
You might have more luck getting replies on the RW lockdown thread.
They also run a land destruction type list, but often with a more varied lockdown strategy. the thread is worth a read and i have
myself converted my land destruction list into a hybrid RW lockdown land destruction list.
Against Decks like 8-Rack Bottled Cloister is a total nonbo, isn't it?
you get your hand back only after their Affliction and Rack has dealt their 3 damage each to you.
But I'm think Cloister isn't in the main for anything but the additional draw it provides.
I've been running a very similar list as the one you just posted Mark, just with a slight bit of more landkill, in the form of fulminators.
How has the mystifying maze's been serving you? I am personalty running Kher Keep over it.
Also running 5 ETB tapped lands, does it not come to bite you more often than it is helping?
On a more serious note, its great early game, and often makes the opponent hold up a single mana, even when you don't have it.
But game 2-3 i usually side them out, due too Mana Tithe scare often doing just as good of a work as the actual card.
Unfortunately it's also terrible top deck late game, so running it along with Faithless Looting or the likes might be a good thing.
Though slightly dead, there is already a Primer on Land Destruction (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=437252) right here in modern deck creation, there is a lot of good info and card choice discussion in there.
So, please search for similar post before making new ones
When it comes down to the actual list you are running, might i suggest Boom // Bust and Fulminator Mage.
I have a land destruction list myself, because i like being a sponge for all the hate of players around me. And those two cards really do shine in my deck.
As long as at least 1 version of a card is legal in the appropriate format, every printing is legal in that format.
Meaning that in modern you can use the tempest version of pasifism if you like the Karn artwork better, or the boring m14 version, or any other version of the card.
A friend of me has this awesome ramp deck build around casting Maelstrom Archangel with Lightning Greaves (on turn 3?), then getting a Progenitus of the angel's trigger. all backed up with Summoner's Pact. It's a casual deck though, as it does not run any fancy fetches and shocks.
I though the idea was kind off neat, but it is at best a T2 deck.
More on topic, please don't run Allied Strategies, and the amount of 1 offs that deck is running will totally kill all of its consistency. In competitive consistency is key.
As you wish to run a midrange/control strategy, your deck needs passing both the gofy, deathrite and Splinter Twin test. If your deck deal with these you will be in trouble.
I would advise on putting the main weight of the deck into green, that will give you access to the best ramp, Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay.
I've been wondering one thing in lists posted here previously, why run rule, when lab is available? Is reblast that prominent that the added pitch to force isn't worth it? I'm pretty new to legacy so apologies if I'm asking a stupid question.
- It's a very slow engine, given that you can't sac more than 1 land a turn. Hence often not netting you enough life to matter.
- It's not graveyard based, so I found myself drawing cards to get to it, when i really wanted to dredge.
- Sacing lands is very much an issue when you only have one landdrop am turn, that land could've been used to power more powerful things like tec edge/ghost quarter -> loam engine.
I moved it out of my main deck, into my side, and now I've switched it out to test Syphon Life in its slot. And I have to say it's been putting out at least as bad results.
Life totals are very much an issue with this deck, I often stabilize at 5 or less life. I will give Miren, the Moaning Well a shot, somewhere in the already strained mana.
The deck has indeed been spotted, Looking forward to your GP report bGnomes
Edit: Looks like I've been beat to it, so much for not refreshing the page before posting
Also you cannot rely on Gatherer ratings on cards as a mark of quality, lots of unplayable cards have 4+ rating on there.
You might need to take a look at that curve, first walker landing on 4 cmc, all the way up to 8 cmc, might make them be dead in your hand more than you'd like.
I can confirm, Vengeant is just awesome.
Lilly is not interchangeable with Thoughtseize, In the awkward situation where you draw a Haakon, Lilly makes him castable, her -2 mode is also very useful against hexproof cards like Geist.
Thoughtseize is surely a card to be considered for the deck, but not as a Liliana replacement.
I'm working on acquiring this deck in paper myself, and I must say I enjoy it at lot more than the BUG version currently more discussed here on the deck creation forum.
Getting KotR and Lingering Souls does so much for the deck.
How was the 3 Darkblasts? I'm currently only running 1.
I see that the Treetop Village has become Stirring Wildwood, is that solely for the mana consistency?
Also you're only running 22 lands with a list that reliant upon the 4 drops, have you considered Mind Stone or Boros Signet?
I would advice moving some amount of those bolts (or helixes) into the main.
With the bridges in the side, are you able to empty your hand quick enough? it seems like the Elspeth/Deus or other big beaters might give your opponent time to slip under it. When on the land destruction plan i like running Ghostly Prison
in their place.
On straight land destruction spells i would look into both Ghost Quarter and Fulminator Mage
Also, you have to explain to me how this satyr trick of yours works, how do you sac him on turn 1, when it already costs 2 mana casting him, does he even give you any mana increase? Play out for 2 mana, sac for 1 mana gain 3 mana = no gain...
You might have more luck getting replies on the RW lockdown thread.
They also run a land destruction type list, but often with a more varied lockdown strategy. the thread is worth a read and i have
myself converted my land destruction list into a hybrid RW lockdown land destruction list.
I would like to see your list, Crack the Earth is an interesting card with Simian Spirit Guide and Flagstones of Trokair
but I haven't been able to get as much out of it as i'd like, paying 3 for it with a active Trinisphere on the table is a bit sad.
you get your hand back only after their Affliction and Rack has dealt their 3 damage each to you.
But I'm think Cloister isn't in the main for anything but the additional draw it provides.
How has the mystifying maze's been serving you? I am personalty running Kher Keep over it.
Also running 5 ETB tapped lands, does it not come to bite you more often than it is helping?
On a more serious note, its great early game, and often makes the opponent hold up a single mana, even when you don't have it.
But game 2-3 i usually side them out, due too Mana Tithe scare often doing just as good of a work as the actual card.
Unfortunately it's also terrible top deck late game, so running it along with Faithless Looting or the likes might be a good thing.
So, please search for similar post before making new ones
When it comes down to the actual list you are running, might i suggest Boom // Bust and Fulminator Mage.
I have a land destruction list myself, because i like being a sponge for all the hate of players around me. And those two cards really do shine in my deck.
Meaning that in modern you can use the tempest version of pasifism if you like the Karn artwork better, or the boring m14 version, or any other version of the card.
I though the idea was kind off neat, but it is at best a T2 deck.
More on topic, please don't run Allied Strategies, and the amount of 1 offs that deck is running will totally kill all of its consistency. In competitive consistency is key.
As you wish to run a midrange/control strategy, your deck needs passing both the gofy, deathrite and Splinter Twin test. If your deck deal with these you will be in trouble.
I would advise on putting the main weight of the deck into green, that will give you access to the best ramp, Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay.