I already have Elves and humans built so I already have the expensive cards. Budget is not an issue, what is the best list possible? Assuming post M19 release.
Sideboard questions:
1. I've seen a few lists running Driven // Despair in the sideboard, what exactly is this for?
2. I'm assuming Heroic Intervention is there purely for sweepers/boardwipes? In non-Chord builds I'm guessing its better than Selfless Spirit or Burrenton Forge-Tender?
3. Is Stain the Mind worth it in GB Shaman builds vs combo matches if you know the best cards to take with it?
4. Shapers' Sanctuary is great - seeing my Abzan opponent take it from an Inquisition of Kozilek showed how much they feared it!
I have never played a pure GB Shaman list, but here are my thoughts on these cards:
Short version: Driven // Despair: Worth testing Heroic Intervention: Solid sideboard card Stain the Mind: Not a fan; kinda slow, not proactive, doesn't always do enough Shapers' Sanctuary: Highly recommend
Long version:
1. Driven // Despair is a good card to punch in some extra damage in the GB version in order to get your opponent into Shaman range. If they connect, they also punish the opponent pretty hard so they're more likely to be block unfavorably.
2. Heroic Intervention Yes, this card is great against sweepers, but can also blow out an opponent in a combat phase. It's more likely to be played in a GB list alongside Lead the Stampede and no Chords. You need something so you don't fold completely to sweepers, and GB doesn't have many other options.
3. Stain the Mind is not a bad card, but I'm also not a fan. Its best uses are for stripping away sweepers and combo pieces. But fast combo decks like UR Storm or possibly Counters Company will go off before you can cast it or will just use an alternate combo. Giving Valakut a turn by tapping out to cast this to strip Angers is also still helping them. The deck it is best against is Ad Nauseum, but that shouldn't be a matchup to hedge too much against. Not sure it's worth playing.
@slaywithfury
What match do you bring 4x Shapers' Sanctuary for? I'm interested in testing this card but i'm still a big fan of Fecundity.
@Larriepogi
I wouldn't say the 2nd Vizier is an all-star, but it does help in some matchups to have the first removed by hand disruption or a failed attempt from comboing, and to still have it as an option later. It's more that I can't decide on a better card as a 1-of in the slot so it lets me have a slightly higher chance of hitting the Vizier.
And yes, I still love my Wardens. My burn opponent had no chance when I kept playing them, and people often target them for fear of them pushing the game too far out of reach.
@Retswerd
I bring in Shapers' Sanctuary in against any matchup where they will be consistently targeting my creatures. I take CoCo out in this case, because Chord allows me to get more must-answer threats, and Shapers' punishes them for trying to remove them. UW Control stopped targeting my elves with his Planeswalker abilities, Jund gave up trying to spot removal me, and 4-Color Shadow gave me three draws every time they were forced to kill Ezuri or Archdruid.
One of the things to remember, is that it's draw on target. Unlike Fecundity, the creature doesn't have to die and thus you can protect it in response. So draw that Chord off the top and cast it to get Spirit or Ezuri to regen. And if they use Electrolyze on two different creatures, that's multiple targets for multiple triggers. Shapers' Sanctuary has done wonders in my UG Pummeler Standard deck as well. The number of times I draw a hexproof spell off the top to protect my creature is insane.
The last thing, and the major selling point for me, is that this is a fantastic turn 1 play. I would rather play this turn one, and a Devoted Druid or two dorks turn two than a turn one dork. The only time I'd prefer Fecundity is against decks running a lot of sweepers, but there are a few sweepers like Anger or Flaying Tendrils that you still wouldn't draw cards because your creatures are exiled instead.
I won a Nerd Rage Gaming Championship Trial Qualifier today. MVP was 4-of Shapers' Sanctuary in the board. Played 4 midrange and 1 control match today, and none of them could deal with Shapers'. Also beat a UR Storm and Burn deck. Total record 13-3 in games today, with one unintentional draw and one intentional draw.
Round 1 UW Pillowfort (Control)2-1
Game 1 Stalled with Gideons and Flip Jace until he could start swinging with Gideons for the win.
Game 2 He tapped out to Spreading Seas me, I T3 combo him.
Game 3 He taps down my team before combat with Cryptic Command, I had double Devoted Druid Ezuri so I infinite overrun in response and kill him with Devoted Druids.
Round 2 Naya Burn 2-0
Couldn't deal with mainboard Essence Wardens, and then tried to play an attrition matchup with elves.
Round 3 Sultai Midrange 1-1-1
He stalled a boardstate long enough to force the draw, but he couldn't get through a few elves and 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys.
Round 4 Esper Shadow 2-0
Game 1 He was stuck on 1 land.
Game 2 I landed 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys by the end of the game and he couldn't keep my board down from there.
Round 5 ID with 4-Color Shadow
Made 2nd Seed
Top 8 UR Storm 2-0 (Overall 7th Seed)
Game 1 He wipes my board with Grapeshot, but I quickly rebuild, CoCo into Dwynen's Ezuri and swing for lethal.
Game 2 He taps out to play Serum Visions and Baral, I turn 3 combo.
Top 4 Grandpa (Classic) Jund 2-1 (Overall 3rd seed)
Game 1 Got run over by a swarm of Goblin Rabblemaster tokens.
Game 2 Hit Ezuri and Dwynen's again for a lethal swing through two Goyfs and a Bob.
Game 3 Started with 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys in hand. Played them all, forcing removing a couple times completely outdrawing him and finally landing a Colossus and Elvish Champion for Forestwalk.
Finals 4-Color Shadow 2-0(Overall 1st Seed)
Game 1 He had a very aggressive hand, but was low on removal and couldn't stop an Ezuri from sticking.
Game 2 Shapers' Sanctuary blanked most of his removal and Elvish Champion prevented Liliana Last Hope from killing dorks, leading to forestwalking elves winning the match.
Shapers' Sanctuary is a house. You should play it. Probably just as good in any color variant.
I keep my sleeves pretty new, and if the cards start to warp I'll resleeve them and keep them in a pretty tight fit for a while. Like in my deckbox and fill it with some extra bulk to make it a super tight fit or stack some textbooks on top. And always double-sleeved. Once they are flat they don't tend to warp much as long as I treat them nicely. I'll be honest, I also sort of lightly bend them back into shape if that doesn't work. They're my cards and I've never noticed any damage because of me doing it.
Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
There isn't a consensus, and there probably never will be. I am on the Vizier train, and I have been doing very well with it. It seems much more consistent and equally as powerful, but I always focused on the Ezuri gameplan anyway with Shaman as Plan B.
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
I'll provide two cents on the other side of the coin. I run GB elves with lead the stampede mainboard, and have chords and white silver bullets in the side, so technically abzan (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=110297). I think this build offers the best of both worlds. It gives the reach of Shaman while also allowing silver bullet creatures games 2 and 3. I also run a painless mana base (except Horizon Canopy) and have never had issues getting B or W when needed. Cavern can name any creature type, and Chord/Coco get around the specific color of mana needed.
In a meta with lots of spot removal, GB elves with lead the stampede offers the most resiliency. It's worse against combo decks, but those matchups are usually poor with any version of elves. In the 50/50 matchups, I can see the devoted/vizier combo folding more often to DS/jund/junk/control relatively easily, while GB elves with shaman and lead make these matchups much easier through the card advantage coco and lead provide. I would consider running Devoted/Vizier if the amount of spot removal and hand disruption (thoughtseize/inquistion) goes down, but they are such staples that you're almost bound to run into them at every big event.
I fear you may have misunderstood me. GB and Abzan are far different to me. I think the Abzan version is suited in about the same place as GW, and I won't tell you one or the other is better. I could see myself swapping between them at any given point. The version I would not recommend is pure GB without the white toolbox.
Mid-range matchups don't really change much with or without Shaman to me. If they can't keep your board down to where Shaman would be lethal, they were losing anyway. The Vizier combo is also often cut in this matchup. Shaman may make the matchup easier in some cases, but all versions will trim cards for a value and card advantage strategy post-board.
As far as Thoughtseize and Inquisition, I think Devoted Combo is BETTER suited. Devoted is now another must-kill threat or it can end the game. If they have to drop removal on every Heritage, Devoted, Archdruid, and Ezuri you drop, they'll eventually run out of removal. Vizier is never necessary, it's just sometimes the "oops, I win" factor.
Sugestions?
The list is the normal one, Shaman main, White side stuff, Stain the Mind, etc.
That manabase is going to be quite painful.
My manabase was:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
I didn't usually have a problem casting what I needed. If you're running more black or white non-creature spells you may have to adjust it, but I didn't find shocks and fetches necessary.
Is there a consensus on which is better...Shaman (GB) Elves or the Vizier (GW) Elves? I keep seeing people talking about the Vizier deck, but not seeing it doing well. Sorry, just a little confused on which direction to take.
There isn't a consensus, and there probably never will be. I am on the Vizier train, and I have been doing very well with it. It seems much more consistent and equally as powerful, but I always focused on the Ezuri gameplan anyway with Shaman as Plan B.
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
You're right in that Shaman is overkill sometimes. Other times it gives you another angle when your combo gets disrupted. That being said I don't think abzan is that strong mainly because I need a painful manabase for black's noncreature spells. Too much affinity and burn running around in my meta. Back to GW.
Glad the numbers are there. In practice 17 lands have been performing and its mostly thanks to devoted druid. Adding a 3rd visionary in place of the 18th land seems good. Maybe cutting 1 dwynen's for the 4th visionary is something to consider as well.
You're right about abzan's expensive casting requirements. Having the 18th land seems like a must. Another reason why abzan seems slightly inferior to GW.
My main reason to ever run Shaman of the Pack was to get around Ensnaring Bridge. Devoted Druid can do that on it's own though.
My manabase for Abzan was actually less painful of a manabase than my GW version. I didn't run fetches or shocks in Abzan, but I'm running a Temple Garden and 2-3 fetches for GW. May cut back to just more forests with move Visionarys though. I am still on the mainboard Essence Warden train that I would highly recommend if fast decks, especially Burn, are prevalent in your meta.
I am glad to hear that 17 lands is working out for you. I haven't noticed a difference in my testing with 17, which is exactly what I'd like to see.
I'm still testing it. I've been running 2x mainboard because I want to see it more often than not to get a feel for it. As has been mentioned though, it's Legendary, so seeing the 2nd one usually isn't great. I've liked what I've seen so far out of it. Landing one early along with the usual horde of Elves who can tap or be tapped for mana is glorious! Also, topdecking one late can be a nice surprise play to end your turn with lethally tapped Elves. My local meta has a lot of Ensnaring Bridge type stuff going on, so any extra chance to damage without attacking is useful for me. And if it doesn't seem like it'll be useful in a matchup after Game 1, it's easily sided out for silver bullets or specific deck hate.
Don't forget that Vizier combo is good against Ensnaring. Devoted Druid can swing with 0 power then get buffed.
Are you running shamans without the combo? The reason I'm asking is because I built a list recently that I'm going to build once my gilt leaf arrive but I'm skeptical about 17 lands. I feel like it's okay because the druids are extra mana sources that stock shamans don't have but I'll have to be conservative on how many druids I take out postboard. Another reason why I think 17 lands is okay is because I've seen pros side out the 1-of westvale abbey sometimes which makes me believe it's doable. What do you think?
Right now I either run the Combo or I run Shaman for the same slots. I really don't feel like I miss Shaman when I have the combo.
I was going to make a big long post detailing the statistics, but I decided to make this short and sweet. I will be testing 17 lands because the statistics look fairly promising, but will be adding a 3rd Visionary which will still help in the consistency.
As far as Abzan Elves, I would recommend 18 lands due to the higher curve and the necessity of getting larger boards and casting Collected Companys.
4 ezuri is a lil too much when you're not trying to combo off imo. You don't want to get stuck with multiples in your opening hand because generally speaking you want ezuri as a finisher. On that note, aking out 1-2 chords instead of the 4th ezuri could also be good.
Ah, I only play 3 Ezuri main. And when I was boarding him in it was the 3rd Ezuri with two main.
Sorry for taking so long, my boarding against storm is:
-4 Essence Warden
-1 Dwynen's Elite
+1 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Loaming Shaman
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Selfless Spirit
I have never played a pure GB Shaman list, but here are my thoughts on these cards:
Short version:
Driven // Despair: Worth testing
Heroic Intervention: Solid sideboard card
Stain the Mind: Not a fan; kinda slow, not proactive, doesn't always do enough
Shapers' Sanctuary: Highly recommend
Long version:
1. Driven // Despair is a good card to punch in some extra damage in the GB version in order to get your opponent into Shaman range. If they connect, they also punish the opponent pretty hard so they're more likely to be block unfavorably.
2. Heroic Intervention Yes, this card is great against sweepers, but can also blow out an opponent in a combat phase. It's more likely to be played in a GB list alongside Lead the Stampede and no Chords. You need something so you don't fold completely to sweepers, and GB doesn't have many other options.
3. Stain the Mind is not a bad card, but I'm also not a fan. Its best uses are for stripping away sweepers and combo pieces. But fast combo decks like UR Storm or possibly Counters Company will go off before you can cast it or will just use an alternate combo. Giving Valakut a turn by tapping out to cast this to strip Angers is also still helping them. The deck it is best against is Ad Nauseum, but that shouldn't be a matchup to hedge too much against. Not sure it's worth playing.
4. Shapers' Sanctuary A similar scenario happened to me as well, but my opponent used Mishra's Bauble to see that I had Shapers' on top, then Inquisitioned away my Archdruid. Next he tapped out to Abrupt Decay my Shapers'. He didn't have much removal left after that, and I was able to dump my hand with Heritage Druid.
@Larriepogi
I wouldn't say the 2nd Vizier is an all-star, but it does help in some matchups to have the first removed by hand disruption or a failed attempt from comboing, and to still have it as an option later. It's more that I can't decide on a better card as a 1-of in the slot so it lets me have a slightly higher chance of hitting the Vizier.
And yes, I still love my Wardens. My burn opponent had no chance when I kept playing them, and people often target them for fear of them pushing the game too far out of reach.
@Retswerd
I bring in Shapers' Sanctuary in against any matchup where they will be consistently targeting my creatures. I take CoCo out in this case, because Chord allows me to get more must-answer threats, and Shapers' punishes them for trying to remove them. UW Control stopped targeting my elves with his Planeswalker abilities, Jund gave up trying to spot removal me, and 4-Color Shadow gave me three draws every time they were forced to kill Ezuri or Archdruid.
One of the things to remember, is that it's draw on target. Unlike Fecundity, the creature doesn't have to die and thus you can protect it in response. So draw that Chord off the top and cast it to get Spirit or Ezuri to regen. And if they use Electrolyze on two different creatures, that's multiple targets for multiple triggers. Shapers' Sanctuary has done wonders in my UG Pummeler Standard deck as well. The number of times I draw a hexproof spell off the top to protect my creature is insane.
The last thing, and the major selling point for me, is that this is a fantastic turn 1 play. I would rather play this turn one, and a Devoted Druid or two dorks turn two than a turn one dork. The only time I'd prefer Fecundity is against decks running a lot of sweepers, but there are a few sweepers like Anger or Flaying Tendrils that you still wouldn't draw cards because your creatures are exiled instead.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Essence Warden
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Devoted Druid
2 Vizier of Remedies
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
Lands (18)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Elvish Champion
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tajuru Preserver
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
Round 1 UW Pillowfort (Control)2-1
Game 1 Stalled with Gideons and Flip Jace until he could start swinging with Gideons for the win.
Game 2 He tapped out to Spreading Seas me, I T3 combo him.
Game 3 He taps down my team before combat with Cryptic Command, I had double Devoted Druid Ezuri so I infinite overrun in response and kill him with Devoted Druids.
Round 2 Naya Burn 2-0
Couldn't deal with mainboard Essence Wardens, and then tried to play an attrition matchup with elves.
Round 3 Sultai Midrange 1-1-1
He stalled a boardstate long enough to force the draw, but he couldn't get through a few elves and 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys.
Round 4 Esper Shadow 2-0
Game 1 He was stuck on 1 land.
Game 2 I landed 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys by the end of the game and he couldn't keep my board down from there.
Round 5 ID with 4-Color Shadow
Made 2nd Seed
Top 8 UR Storm 2-0 (Overall 7th Seed)
Game 1 He wipes my board with Grapeshot, but I quickly rebuild, CoCo into Dwynen's Ezuri and swing for lethal.
Game 2 He taps out to play Serum Visions and Baral, I turn 3 combo.
Top 4 Grandpa (Classic) Jund 2-1 (Overall 3rd seed)
Game 1 Got run over by a swarm of Goblin Rabblemaster tokens.
Game 2 Hit Ezuri and Dwynen's again for a lethal swing through two Goyfs and a Bob.
Game 3 Started with 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys in hand. Played them all, forcing removing a couple times completely outdrawing him and finally landing a Colossus and Elvish Champion for Forestwalk.
Finals 4-Color Shadow 2-0(Overall 1st Seed)
Game 1 He had a very aggressive hand, but was low on removal and couldn't stop an Ezuri from sticking.
Game 2 Shapers' Sanctuary blanked most of his removal and Elvish Champion prevented Liliana Last Hope from killing dorks, leading to forestwalking elves winning the match.
Shapers' Sanctuary is a house. You should play it. Probably just as good in any color variant.
Mid-range matchups don't really change much with or without Shaman to me. If they can't keep your board down to where Shaman would be lethal, they were losing anyway. The Vizier combo is also often cut in this matchup. Shaman may make the matchup easier in some cases, but all versions will trim cards for a value and card advantage strategy post-board.
As far as Thoughtseize and Inquisition, I think Devoted Combo is BETTER suited. Devoted is now another must-kill threat or it can end the game. If they have to drop removal on every Heritage, Devoted, Archdruid, and Ezuri you drop, they'll eventually run out of removal. Vizier is never necessary, it's just sometimes the "oops, I win" factor.
My manabase was:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
I didn't usually have a problem casting what I needed. If you're running more black or white non-creature spells you may have to adjust it, but I didn't find shocks and fetches necessary.
I think the Abzan version has it's perks as well, but I think it has bad matchups that are made even worse when it can't build a strong board. I personally think GB is an inferior version with less options of a toolbox which can cause it to lose matchups that I can't imagine losing with white. Ad Nauseum, Baral Storm, Affinity, Vizier/Abzan Company, and many others are way better with the white sideboard cards.
My manabase for Abzan was actually less painful of a manabase than my GW version. I didn't run fetches or shocks in Abzan, but I'm running a Temple Garden and 2-3 fetches for GW. May cut back to just more forests with move Visionarys though. I am still on the mainboard Essence Warden train that I would highly recommend if fast decks, especially Burn, are prevalent in your meta.
I am glad to hear that 17 lands is working out for you. I haven't noticed a difference in my testing with 17, which is exactly what I'd like to see.
I was going to make a big long post detailing the statistics, but I decided to make this short and sweet. I will be testing 17 lands because the statistics look fairly promising, but will be adding a 3rd Visionary which will still help in the consistency.
As far as Abzan Elves, I would recommend 18 lands due to the higher curve and the necessity of getting larger boards and casting Collected Companys.
Ah, I only play 3 Ezuri main. And when I was boarding him in it was the 3rd Ezuri with two main.