MTG Salvation

Okay, let's get logical =)

1)Nothing, and i mean NOTHING guarantees you a win. Every win condition can be countered in one way or another. You seem to be emotionally attached to winning "on the spot", without having to attack with creatures, but Magic is a game where you need to deal 20 damage to opponent and that's it. Not 20 billion. Not in one turn. A win is a win, and in this light thopter-sword "guarantees" you maybe even more wins, because it is less fragile.
2)Well, they traded some of unfairness for consistency. Nothing is wrong with that. Still less fragile than pili-pala combo though.
3)I intentionally disregarded Tooth and Nail because it is bad. It has no tournament results, or even popularity. Abzan company, by the way, has a backup for two of their three pieces, and can decently attack without assembling combo using gavony township. It is not an all-in combo deck.

That's like me saying - I've tested your deck against real opponents with tiered decks, and it's been a failure.

Did you? If so, maybe you are right. But i only see theories about how two combos do not complement each other.
Published results? It's a deck creation forum, if this deck had some results, i guess it would be at least in developing competitive.

You are saying that i say random stuff just to win the argument, but you ignored my main point too. What are good and bad matchups for your list? Why is it superior compared to other versions?

Ad nauseam, storm(at least old one) and scapeshift have a strong point in that they dodge creature removal. Your list does not.
You say that my statements are baseless and illogical, but they all come from playing games against real opponents, and a lot of them with tiered decks. Can you state what matchups you consider favorable?

Quote from isei8388 »

Quote from kuzmich »

Quote from isei8388 »

Quote from kuzmich »

Quote from isei8388 »

By big stuff you mean ballista? Usually, which only really works with architect out (unless you're talking about some obscure number of wurmcoil engines and myr superions). Same thing with this deck, you can go down for some value ballista.

Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.

Ok, suppose they surgical your architect or put a stony silence. What's next?

So we're in g2/g3 and I haven't brought in any sideboard cards myself?

Cryptic Command answers any permanent effect including stony silence.

Surgical extraction on architect (which involves having it discarded from hand as I don't normally play it unless I'm going off or making a value ballista anyways) means I only have a bunch 2/1's, 1/1's, 0/5 walls, small ballista's on the field.

Seems pretty dire, but hey if we're talking about decks that are disrupting my hand (ie. bgx/shadow), I think it would be grim for both versions of the deck so I don't really see your point. It's almost as if you believe the chief engineer, etherium sculptor, 1/1 fliers deck doesn't rely on grand architect to go off. Those decks run a bunch of crewable vehicles, equipment slots, everything that gets exponentially worse in the face of creature removal/discard.

Grand architect is 100% the pay off card for both decks, so I'm not really seeing your whole point unless it's "gg surgical extract architect. Grand architect sucks, game over."

In that case, why are you even here?

Instead of arbitrarily voicing out haphazard scenarios, how about you propose a worthy build and I'll list out the comparative pros and cons between your list and mine?

Looking forward to your response.

Well, but i did. You can check my list several posts before. I even run pili-pala myself, and no chief engineers =)
Considering realism of my examples - i deliberately chose examples where combo just doesn't work. But in reality, they don't have to permanently shut down the combo - they could just kill/discard him (or even pili-pala) and execute their gameplan before you could find another.

An example of a good deck would be Death shadow - these decks are surely win a lot of their matches via their namesake card, but they don't fold on the spot if they lose it.

Yeah I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Death Shadow's deck is the premier meta deck at the moment over Grand Architect. I mean after all, that's why we're here in the Deck Creation subforum and not in Tier 1.

As for your deck, I feel it is trying too hard to do many little things that you may just end up drawing some disjointed part of your deck with no cohesion.

Along the same lines of logic as yours, it is also very susceptible to stony silence and uh surgical extraction

Sword/Thopter combo takes up too many slots and doesn't even guarantee a win, feels bad imo. Gets worse when you're playing random one of artifacts to fuel whir to get part of the combo or pili-pala?

Anyways, I don't think it's really constructive just saying things like "nah I've tried this deck, it doesn't work, loses to death's shadow and gets hosed in X scenario".

I don't understand why you are seeing all my comments in such an aggressive light.

Death's shadow was only an example on how a deck can have plan B and plan C. No one was talking power level here.
As for my decklist - yes, it kinda sucks against stony, but i have a sideboard plan for it (and, well, every deck has its weakness) It is completely surgical-proof though, as i don't rely on one combo.

Disjointed part? Such as? I guess Fatal push can be dead in some matchups, and maybe drawing foundry in multiples can be bad, but that's it. In my opinion, playing trinket mage without playing his silver bullet package is not a good deckbuilding.

Thopter-sword does not guarantee a win? Well, nothing is. But it just wrecks a lot of decks - for example burn, death's shadow, and is simply good in attrition matchups. Compared to this, pili-pala combo is faster, can beat infinite life, but requires a third piece(!) and easily disrupted, so i rely on in against non-interactive decks. And there is third plan in flyers beatdown, which actually gives me at least a third of my wins. My deck is not all-in combo and i can tune it after sideboard. I even consider Jund(not Abzan) a good matchup in general. Bad matchups for me are Tron and stony silence, but i'm working on these too.

Quote from isei8388 »

Quote from kuzmich »

Quote from isei8388 »

By big stuff you mean ballista? Usually, which only really works with architect out (unless you're talking about some obscure number of wurmcoil engines and myr superions). Same thing with this deck, you can go down for some value ballista.

Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.

Ok, suppose they surgical your architect or put a stony silence. What's next?

So we're in g2/g3 and I haven't brought in any sideboard cards myself?

Cryptic Command answers any permanent effect including stony silence.

Surgical extraction on architect (which involves having it discarded from hand as I don't normally play it unless I'm going off or making a value ballista anyways) means I only have a bunch 2/1's, 1/1's, 0/5 walls, small ballista's on the field.

Seems pretty dire, but hey if we're talking about decks that are disrupting my hand (ie. bgx/shadow), I think it would be grim for both versions of the deck so I don't really see your point. It's almost as if you believe the chief engineer, etherium sculptor, 1/1 fliers deck doesn't rely on grand architect to go off. Those decks run a bunch of crewable vehicles, equipment slots, everything that gets exponentially worse in the face of creature removal/discard.

Grand architect is 100% the pay off card for both decks, so I'm not really seeing your whole point unless it's "gg surgical extract architect. Grand architect sucks, game over."

In that case, why are you even here?

Instead of arbitrarily voicing out haphazard scenarios, how about you propose a worthy build and I'll list out the comparative pros and cons between your list and mine?

Looking forward to your response.

Well, but i did. You can check my list several posts before. I even run pili-pala myself, and no chief engineers =)
Considering realism of my examples - i deliberately chose examples where combo just doesn't work. But in reality, they don't have to permanently shut down the combo - they could just kill/discard him (or even pili-pala) and execute their gameplan before you could find another.

An example of a good deck would be Death shadow - these decks are surely win a lot of their matches via their namesake card, but they don't fold on the spot if they lose it.

Quote from isei8388 »

By big stuff you mean ballista? Usually, which only really works with architect out (unless you're talking about some obscure number of wurmcoil engines and myr superions). Same thing with this deck, you can go down for some value ballista.

Finisher is grand architect/pili pala. Thought I was clear on that.

Ok, suppose they surgical your architect or put a stony silence. What's next?

Quote from isei8388 »

I actually believe the other variants are more reliant on architect, without it you have a bunch of etherium sculptors, chief engineers, etc.

Who, in truth, also help you cast your big stuff.

Quote from isei8388 »

With this build, not only are you able to chord quickly and efficiently for architect, you can also play the ewit/command gameplan.

Witness-command is fine, but not superb - you still pay 4 mana each turn for a half of command (other half is always bounce witness), so you can either tap their attackers, or counter their spell. How is this winning a game? What is your actual finisher?

I tried something like this, problem is when you don't draw architect your deck is full of bad cards. And even when you do - Architect is extremely fragile. You must at least have some beatdown backup plan - but your creatures are not really suited for this.

Wow, thanks, i didn't think of it. However, it rarely is a case, because you either have the thopter-sword combo, and don't want to spend mana anywhere else, or Grand Architect bites the dust.

Hello everyone in this thread! Can you give me some feedback on my list? It is still very unrefined, i'm changing utility cards almost every day, but the core looks finished enough to post it =)

Quote from Sephon19 »

Good 1 mana cantrips, I assume you mean quality card selection like Preordain, becaue we just got a beater Sphinx that cycles for U. The reason they don't print Preordain-like cards isn't actually Standard. It's because of concerns with eternal formats, particularly Modern. 1 mana blue cantrips are incredibly powerful there as they severely empower the tempo of blue combo decks. Of all things, don't blame Standard card design on 1 mana cantrips/card selection. This is one of the few areas they are really careful in regards to eternal.

They could easily print Preordain itself (or Ponder, or, i don't know, Serum visions) and eternal formats wouldn't even flinch

Hi daviusminimus, thanks for your responses! I take no offence in your counter-arguments(and hope you do the same), moreover, new ideas are always appreciated!
Ruric only cost 1 red mana, and we have lost of green so i don't see any problem here. If you mean that they destroy our ramp engines - that just means shields down on counterspells.
On Sigarda - I tried her, but after losing a cuple of games to Jund with Sigarda in hand i started to look for better cards. Wilt-leaf is always good when you "draw" it and is the only card you can reliably search on turn 2.
On guttural response - you actually have a point here, having a relevant wish target is better than just search for another walker, maybe in this list it is the only way to go. For my list blue control is an easy matchup, and i just don't want to waste a sideboard slot for a good matchup.

Quote from daviusminimus »

GGWWR isn't that hard in this deck going into the late game though, I disagree on that completely. There's 7 dorks in his list, plus 4 utopia, and the fetch/shock manabase in a 3-colour deck.

A clever opponent will always attack your manabase - ghost quarters, spreading seas, kill your dorks and utopias - the only type you can reliably get is green. And even if you can make it happen - you just don't have that many targets - it is not that good against eldrazi, and those who play tasigur usually can protect him.

I understand your argument for Guttural Response, but it doesn't become completely useless just because you've shown it. It'll either force them to tap out because their counter-spell is now rubbish, or they'll play a less efficient spell (they may play a mana leak instead of cryptic so that they can hold open a remand - you let the mana leak resolve and then try squeeze through a different spell later). So I definitely don't think it's pointless, and it has it's uses game 2/3. As an example, the old Jeskai Ascendancy / Wish decks used Guttural Response because its the easiest way to squeeze through a spell (consider guttural to squeeze through a spell over another 4-mana threat like nahiri - guttural makes it possible to overload the counter magic). If it worked there, there's no reason it can't work here.

I don't know much about Jeskai Ascendancy, but i know for sure that you are not winning counterspell war just because you have one counterspell. You still can only do this on turn four reliably, and that means if you are on the draw - they can double counterspell you anyway. And even if all goes according to the plan you still haven't won yet - you just played a good, efficient threat and tapped out. Next turn they can counter your spell and bounce nahiri, or d-sphere her, or, worst case for them, just collonade her in 3 hits.

The argument for Wilt-Leaf (that its good vs lili) is sorta fine, but you are showing the card, which was your argument against guttural response. I realise it "turns off" a mode on lili, but it's not exactly stunning when it does come into play.

It is stunning enough to kill Liliana =)

I think this is a scenario where just running 2-3 copies of Obstinate Baloth is better than having a wilt-leaf that isn't all that good. I'd rather have a sigarda in the board for that job, if jund is a tricky match-up. Sure it's a touch slower, but its much harder for them to deal with.

If only I could play 3 baloths.. I play one Baloth and one Liege, by the way. Sigarda is very slow - Jund is very good at denying you resources, and can can come in many forms - Death's shadow Jund, 8-rack, - which can handle your Sigarda just fine. An easy example - you start with dork, on their turn they play inquisition taking your utopia. You untap and have wish as your only turn 2 play. Do you play it? And if you do, do you Wish for Sigarda?

And sorry to push back again - but how quickly can you get 8 mana (or 6 + glittering wish) so that you can land ruric thar? It seems like a turn 4 play at the very best, which on the draw at least, won't be quick enough vs storm or infect. I love ruric thar, but I just think there's better ways to shut down those decks (you have wheel of S&M vs storm, though agree infect is a little trickier). When i've built wishboards in the past, I've only dedicated 5-6 slots for haymakers, 2-3 slots that help your own gameplan (like Nahiri / Nicol Bolas in this deck) and then the other 6-8 slots with actual good sideboard cards (like baloths etc). I think that's the best way to utilize the wish board, as you don't sacrifice too much power for the flexibility (e.g. which is back to my first point, fracturing gust is a playable card, vexing shusher isn't).

8 mana is turn three at best, for example: 1)t1 elf into t2 utopia+garruk 2)t1 elf into t2 overgrowth. 3)double elf+utopia. "Just" Garruk+another accelerator is turn four, double utopia+elf is turn four too. Wheel is not that good against storm, they can easily play around it. Ruric Thar, however, is just a good card by itself, i often board him in.

Sorry daviusminimus, but i think you don't really understand wishboard. You play glittering wish because you have a lot of mana, and by that time you want to make some kind of lock, and Ruric Thar is the perfect card to make a lock against a storm or infect, while being simply good against decks like UW control. Wilt-leaf is mostly a silver bullet against Liliana of the Veil. Fiery Justice is nearly unplayable - suppose you have 5 mana and want to cast it using g.wish - it would be GGWWR vs. 2GWR. Triple non-green cost is very hard even in late game, and on turn 3 it is close to magic wonderland. On the top of that it is useless against boggles, and when you board it in (you do) it is very hard to cast it on turn 2. Vexing Shusher is bad, but Guttural Response is bad as well - if you show it from wish it is kind of useless, and if you board it in it is just a worse ricochet trap. I agree on 2nd wheel being useless - you don't have the luxury to play 2nd copy, and it is not even that good to begin with.

Hi daviusminimus!

Lately I've been getting a lot of positive results, but a lot of them came from my opponents' mistakes. But again, isn't that a part of why we play non-conventional decks?

Regarding Liliana, The Last Hope - she is so good that i don't even think about not playing her, and moreover, thinking about playing 3. Together with wish they add to our deck turn 2-3 interaction, which helps in a lot of fast matchups - Infect, Affinity, Jund, even Eldrazi. +2 Overgrown Tomb -2 Forest is not that big of a price to pay.

Regarding Glittering Wish - Since i've switched to this version i've never wanted to come back, even though old version is better against some decks. First, let's talk drawbacks. Wish strains our mana a lot. Liliana is double black, sure, but she is fixed by oath, while wish is not. With wish in the deck, the correct play is always name white on the first Utopia Sprawl (if you dont need another color asap) - even without wish in our hand.
All that said, wish is the gas. I've somehow finalized my wishboard, here is the current one:
3x Crumble to Dust
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Fulminator Mage
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Primal Command
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Slaughter Games
1x Firespout
1x Wilt-leaf Liege
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
..And #16 is Melira, Sylvok Outcast. I can swap Liege, Wheel and Melira depending on my scouting before the tournament Liege is for all decks with Liliana of the Veil(BGx,8-Rack, Mardu midrange), Melira is against Inkmoth Nexus decks(Infect, Affinity), and wheel is obviously against graveyard decks and mill. Other notable card is Lightning Helix if your meta is aggro-heavy.
Second Ajani was moved from main to side, replaced him with Chandra ToD. Sigarda was a win-more, and I had to cut Command#2 and Hydra#2. Maelstrom Pulse was always mediocre in testing so it got the axe too. Other mediocre card is Slaughter Games, but for now it is in the deck.

One important thing is that while Wish indeed makes our relevant play a turn slower, it adds so much consistency that in the long run you will spend a lot more turns without it just praying and trying to topdeck something relevant.

Regarding matchups - I still don't have enough info for reliable statistics, but here's what i have:

Burn is the worst matchup, but it requires a lot of skill(or luck, lol) from the Burn pilot, so I get free wins here and there.

Tron is the nightmare pre-board, but postboard you can turn 3 Crumble to Dust him all day long. Or even turn 2 if you are lucky enough. You can win pre-board, but he need to stumble, or you need to go first and play something like t2 wish for Fulminator -> t3 fulminator ->t4 Witness/Liliana getting back fulminator and replaying him. Or even t3 Nicol Bolas =)

Infect is hard, but not unwinnable. Sure, you can get double t3 killed from time to time, but on the other hand, t2 Liliana or t3 Gideon are not that easy for them to overcome. Then you stick Ruric Thar or Melira and they are done. Mulligan here agressively, a lot of generally keepable hands are do-nothings against infect.

Blue control, creature combo, Valakut decks are average. Depends on their configuration it can get from slightly better to unwinnable (looking at you, combo elves.) But in most cases our average hands are more powerful than their.

Non-blue grindy decks - Jund/Junk, Mardu, Pox, whatever.. =) - Slightly better. In general, we have the more powerful plan, and can fight through their discard.

Bant Eldrazi - surprisingly good. They are slow enough for us to play all our ramp, and the we can Gideon/Nahiri/Chandra all their creatures and Bolas for the win.

Affinity - can t3 kill us, but otherwise we can buy ourselves enough time for Fracturing Gust and boom.

I have no info on Dredge, but I suppose it is not good at all =)

If you want info on some other matchups, or go a little more in-depth on one of this, feel free to ask!

Hi Loadead, it's a nice find, and i actually like it more than Doubling season!
But in my opinion it is a little slow. Which matchups allow you to activate him? Maybe eldrazi..

P.S. Played a little more with wishboard version. You can now activate Chandra, Pyromaster's ultimate - 5 relevant targets in the maindeck, plus maybe more out of sideboard - both triple wish and triple command is pure gasoline.

Tested ~20 games against Burn - is a very tough matchup. You can win only if you are going first and their hand is on the slow side. Postboard gets a little better - as long as opponent does not know you sideboard plan.